[Silk]

Aptorius, on 21 February 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

blackzoid, on 20 February 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Batman beat Superman, so he should be able to beat that dirty mutie no problem.

Yes, but we're talking about a question of marshial skill and potential in a full contact match here, right? Not the "I have all the gadgets and trickery at my disposal" Batman.

Greymanekas, on 20 February 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

Batman > Punisher
Punisher > Wolverine
Batman > Wolverine

logic

Are you referring to that one time where Punisher shot wolverine in the face and balls and then steamrolled him? Because Wolverine hunted him down later and threw him out of a building as payback, leaving him bleeding on the ground for the cops to come find him.

And again, this was a question of two fighters going one on one.

In a "fist fight" in the Marvel universe the only people I can see having a chance against Wolverine is the people who have super human/magical strength along with their skill. Guys like Captain America, Electra, Iron Fist and of course Spiderman. A person with normal human strength and reflexes just isn't capable of damaging Wolverine enough to challenge him.

My mind goes back to the DC vs Marvel series and in all honesty the nailed the wolverine battle as the only real person with the attitude/abilities to take on the rabid wolverine would be Lobo, however even the mighty Lobo lost to a sinister *snick* at the end......

[Silk]

Abyss, on 21 February 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

tiam, on 21 February 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

... As Amph points out below Tool is not a more honourable fighter. I cannot remember Tool being an honourable fighter throughout the series. ...

Actually , in MoI Tool makes the point to Envy and later to Toc, paraphrasing here, that the Imass "...First Sword must be the best...".

It is a HUGE point of honor for Tool that as Imass First Sword, no one is better that him. When Mok decapitates the Kell Hunter, Tool practically looses his shit and moves to challenge him right there, never mind that the only outcome would be one of their deaths while neck deep in Pannion country. Envy intervenes and Tool is very clear that the fight will happen sooner or later.

So it's all about honour and who is the baddest of the badass and nothing less than sword to sword, not fancy stuff, would resolve it.

And at the end of OST the First Sword was the best ;o) perhaps one of the things affecting Tool was that he may have been the First Sword of the Imass operative word being was as we now know this was passed to Dassem...... so Tool was more the 2nd when he took on Mok.....

[Abyss]

tiam, on 21 February 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

... Surely Tool is stronger, wielding an unbreakable flint wepon against some consistently called whip lean throughout the book?

It's not all about strength.
Sure it's a factor, especially when fighting something way stronger with sharp stabby things, but any number of martial arts 101 is how to block/deflect a hit from someone bigger and stronger than you and breaking your own arm isn't usually the appropriate technique. Gruntle and Harlo against the Kell in MoI and the 14th vs Karsa in RG are examples of what NOT to do.

Silk, on 22 February 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

...My mind goes back to the DC vs Marvel series and in all honesty the nailed the wolverine battle as the only real person with the attitude/abilities to take on the rabid wolverine would be Lobo, however even the mighty Lobo lost to a sinister *snick* at the end......

Which just goes to prove my point that the answer is always, ALWAYS, Wolverine. especialy when the fans are voting on the outcome.
Except when the answer is 'Batman'.

buddhacat, on 21 February 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

By the way, just noticed an unforgivable sin - ICE called Raest's pet Tufty "Fluffy." That's just wrong.

blackzoid, on 21 February 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

...Ya, the cats name is wrong too.

the broken, on 21 February 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

...I don't have a huge problem with ICE's writing, but he really, really needs a better editor. How hard is it to catch the cat's name...
...

Oh.

Ummm.

Crap.

Ok i take back everything nice i ever said about his books. ICE sucks.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 22 February 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

tiam, on 21 February 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

... Surely Tool is stronger, wielding an unbreakable flint wepon against some consistently called whip lean throughout the book?

It's not all about strength.
Sure it's a factor, especially when fighting something way stronger with sharp stabby things, but any number of martial arts 101 is how to block/deflect a hit from someone bigger and stronger than you and breaking your own arm isn't usually the appropriate technique. Gruntle and Harlo against the Kell in MoI and the 14th vs Karsa in RG are examples of what NOT to do.

Ofcourse not but the fact that we see IB analyse Seguleh fighting style as lightning fast but without excessive power behind them and Palla also suffers from the same thing. Karsa vs the 14th was because he hit the ground and broke her stride otherwise she may have taken the blow better. It seems to be a difference between ICEs Seguleh and SE Seguleh. Palla does slip the blows but it does cost her in both weariness and on her blades themselves. You can say Mok was massively more skilled than Palla, I believe he was more skilled but not massively so, but Tool was also massively more skilled than the Miner.

It sort of balances out if you see what I mean. Palla as 6th vs a skilled Tlan Imass bladesman who gets cut to shreds but still wins compared to Mok as Third vs Tool, the best Imass swordsman who loses.

SUBTLE NINJA EDIT- Its not all about technique either though. As I pointed out Blues is the Blademaster of the CGRD yet can be overborne by Lazar IB etc.

This post has been edited by tiam: 23 February 2012 - 10:28 AM

[Aptorian]

tiam, on 22 February 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

It sort of balances out if you see what I mean. Palla as 6th vs a skilled Tlan Imass bladesman who gets cut to shreds but still wins compared to Mok as Third vs Tool, the best Imass swordsman who loses.

The best Imass swordsman that had been tested. Who knows, maybe stick legs was the better Imass. He just never got around to fighting Tool.

[tiam]

And now we play the game of the unknown Miner actually happens to be better but never got the chance to fight Tool.

[Cause]

Tools powers as first sword are supposed to be more than just skill with a blade. Again its something that comes and goes depending on the books but he is a walking embodiment of the Tellen warren. He was supposed to have been a threat to Raest, he was able to suppress all sorcery on the plains of Genebackis for miles around himself. Other Imass are forced to obey him through the Ritual. Being First sword does not seem to be an empty title it carried with it great weight and promised power.

Even if the Miner is a match in skill for Tool (I doubt it, and seriously when was he doing all of this practicing with broken legs) I would think Tool would overpower him by his greater attachment to the ritual. I doubt its something he can choose to turn off.

Little off topic but that moment in MoI when we learn that Tool was one of the few that argued against the ritual was very powerful.

[worry]

I just finished the book, enjoyed it quite a bit, about 90% satisfied with it. Actually agree with just about everything positive Abyss had to say about it. Gonna ramble a little right now.

ICE's biggest problem remains being way too cagey as an author, rather than imparting that caginess to his characters as SE tends to do (though he does that too, with some success). Even that would be fine if he was cagey until the finales, rather than up through and including the finales. It just lends unnecessary confusion (unlike SE's thrilling confusion) and also imparts a feeling of incompleteness to the books.

I've skimmed a few threads, haven't really gotten too deep into them though. One issue I saw brought up a few times was the Malazans crying, which only half-bothered me. That it was so apparently universal a reaction, felt a little wrong. But that it happened at all wasn't an issue to me. Some of these men were veterans of Coral, where they had Seguleh "allies" of a sort; there were also plenty of Genebackan recruits among them. Plus it was just kind of a "Band of Brothers" moment, or that gatling gun scene in The Last Samurai. I mean, they weren't exactly a dishonorable enemy, and this instantaneous massive destruction from a novel and brutal method.

Also I thought it was pretty clear that Miner Imass was practicing in the Azath, is what he meant. There might be continuity issues with him, but that's not one of them for me.

Humble Measure should have been a stronger presence in this book, he was sidelined, and he didn't live up to his set-up as someone to be reckoned with.

Another big issue with this book is that nobody that we know really died. New characters did, but why not lop off Envy's head or something along the way? I really thought Rallick should have got got somewhere along the way too. I like him plenty, but I see no reason to give him a happy ending, and he's gotten out of too many scrapes. I assume Coll is gonna put a baby inside young miss Orr though, which I'm fine with.

ICE missed some big opportunities here as well. A confrontation (of any kind) between Caladan Brood and Dassem. Some more depth regarding Dassem's daughter. Some insight on Spindle's religious conversion (which didn't get any mention whatsoever). Any serious threat to Darujhistan's citizens...even the automaton barely causes a carriage crash and not much else. Some screen time for Kallor, undead Second, and Pust.

Hmm, what else? I never got the impression while reading that Kruppe was the "him" in question, I thought it referred to Caladan Brood...who also mentioned a "him" that he once told to knock it off. I just thought they were referring to each other, and Kruppe was just his old slippery mortal self. Now that's just how I read it, so I could definitely be wrong. I also never got the impression that whoever it was, Kruppe or CB, ever had to do it multiple times.

I was put off a bit by Taya's relationship with her mom as contrasted with her mission in ROTCG, and then how it got reduced a to bratty teenager syndrome. I thought it fit Envy a bit better, and ICE making her a less sympathetic was actually quite nice. I just wonder if ICE has a teenage daughter or two he's quite fed up with.

[Aptorian]

I would have liked The Old Second showing up in this book (we now know he politically has no claim on the mask he carries) but I didn't really mind that he didn't. It was mentioned in passing that he was the one who refused to serve and heed the philosophy of the Seguleh 1st, giving him some kind of infamous status among them. It fits perfectly with his words in BH that he has turned his back on them and quite frankly does not care if they chose to return to Darujistan.

On the other hand I would have liked more information on the dead 1st. He sounds like he also was an ascendant, having lived for a very long time. I preferred the idea of him carrying a simple wooden mask instead of the polished porcelain masks of the Seguleh.

I also really liked Envy. I thought she was perhaps a bit too cold and indifferent to Senu, but I thought it was still in line with her character. Envy has been one of my favorite characters in the whole series because she fits much better with my idea of how all these ancient ascendants and gods should behave in reality. She is so old and so strong that she has forgotten or never knew what it is like to be mortal, weak, poor, etc. She doesn't even think about Mortals because they are like vermin, they are everywhere. What is the life of a human to a creature that has lived for hundreds of millennia. I find her much more fascinating than all these humanist ascendants like Brood or Rake that are constantly fussing about the well being of a few mortals or concerned about some random war.

I absolutely loved the exchange between her and Taya where Taya says "Careful, the court tolerates you now, but that may change." And Envy replies with "Funny, I thought it was the other way around". Like when Fisher implores her to stop this, she could probably, easily, have destroyed every single mage and the tyrant if she had wanted. She just didn't care because they provided a court for her to shine in.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 26 February 2012 - 07:06 AM

[Nyarlathotep]

Lady Envy. Aye, should've had more of her in OST. Rake and Brood are amazing characters and while their compassion to others makes them very likeable, it's great to have Envy provide the opposite POV of an ascendant. Really hope she turns up in future books with way more screen time.
Totally agree with Worrywort about ICE's caginess.

[Ulrik]

Miner fighting Pella is just another ICE/ SE Seguleh inconsistency...probably not worth of deep analysis how Tool could fight or couldnt... (but, I respect and maybe even envy your discussion fever!).

Just, is it so shocking, that it doesnt fit with rest of the books? I think we saw worse examples... Im totally OK with miner sitting on ass for quater million years beating tired human... Im more disturbed by mere fact he walks from Azath, got into duel, grabs Tyrant, sniffs he is human and go back to cards... really?

[Mentalist]

FInished the book in a day, really enjoyed it.

OST was the direct sequel to TTH. And TTH, aside from the awesome finale, was seen by many as a decisively "weak" book. THis was largely due to SE trying something new, narration-wise. I've stated numerous times, that when reading TTH, the major comparison that came to mind in every Darujhistan section were the "Sarantine Mosaic" books by GGKay. It was the story of "The City".
I've felt that ICE pulled off the same "feel" really well. The cameos of nearly everyone we've ever met in Darujhistan were understandable, because the main story was "the life of The City". And the Epilogue reflects it perfectly, as most people pick up the pieces and try to get on with their lives.

I liked the Tyrant-Seguleh arc, although it was incredibly predictable. in fact, it was very much a caricature of the Rhulad Sengar's story, as far as I was concerned. And the way the Tyrant was handled, well, it WAS anticlimactic. But I think that was the point. the same tired point, enunciated with the Imass in MoI, Raest in GotM, Miner in TTH, Ruin in RG---the point that "old powers rising up to take over the world will inevitably get slapped down, because the world left them behind long ago".

The other thing, of course, was the far lighter undertones. I grinned like a maniac every time Leff and Scorch were around, and their misadventures ending up with the Tyrant's demise was simply beautiful.
And, I've always been a huge fan of Leoman, so I've really enjoyed his parts as well.

The book wasn't without issues, and overall, I feel that OST was probably the most "traditional" fantasy book of all the Malaz books. but as a lighter read, it worked for me, even though the whole "K'rul is a WHAAAAAAAAT?" bit, as well as "How did Derudan to THAAT?" thing really grated on me.

oh, and lastly:

buddhacat, on 21 February 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

By the way, just noticed an unforgivable sin - ICE called Raest's pet Tufty "Fluffy." That's just wrong.

I was convinced he called the Miner that. y'know, because of the emlava legs.
the only reason to think he mis-named tufty was because we have Rallick thinking "I hope he's referring to the cat"
which immidiately makes me think he's not.

[Abyss]

Mentalist, on 11 March 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

...
oh, and lastly:

buddhacat, on 21 February 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

By the way, just noticed an unforgivable sin - ICE called Raest's pet Tufty "Fluffy." That's just wrong.

I was convinced he called the Miner that. y'know, because of the emlava legs.
the only reason to think he mis-named tufty was because we have Rallick thinking "I hope he's referring to the cat"
which immidiately makes me think he's not.

Best.
Explanation.
EVER.

[masan's saddle]

Abyss, on 17 February 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

limping dog, on 17 February 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

You see it as spiritually broken, I see it as an awakening. Here we have this society, believed to be in waiting for greatness and then realizing they were nothing but glorified bodyguards.

That has nothing to do with Mok. he was 'broken' after MoI. The bodyguard thing only happens in OST.

Quote

All in all, making a big deal out of 1 word. Just figured he needed a little more respect for his role and growth in MoI. ...
I see Mok being as the Temp of Segulah heroes, sitting in bar in Cant, coming out when needed.

The Seguleh don't work that way as of the beginning of OST. Wherever Mok was, whatever he was doing, it wasn't generating any 'respect'. Just sympathy.

tiam, on 17 February 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

He wasnt broken by the new role but likely by his experiences during the Pannion wars I thought. Anyway I wasnt suggesting he was actually broken but merely broken from Seguleh perspective to the fullest extent of his position in the Agatii was taken away from him/he left.

Yep.
But we're left with an open question of whether Jan's interpretation of 'broken' lines up with what that might mean for a non-Seguleh returning home after a war that threw their whole life perspective into doubt.

Just finished reading OST and apologies if this has been brought up, but i'm pretty sure that with regards to Mok being "broken" there is a scene in the great hall where Jan is having one of his internal monologues and he looks at Envy and blames her for "breaking" Mok (I might be mistaken on when where etc, but I'm positive that Envy gets the blame).

Being spiritually broken by his experiences is one thing, being broken physically and mentally by Envy might be totally different.

That chick could be seriously vigorous.

I thought the book had its flaws, particularly concerning distances travelled vs timescale but that's nothing new in Malazan. Overall I enjoyed it and thought ICE paced it quite well. That said the convergence at the end could have been so much better, I mean Brood turning up to do some minor masonry was a let down and I felt that throughout the Tyrant just wasn't , well, tyrannical enough. Bit of a fanny truth be told.

Seguleh v Moranth shenanigans were awesome, although I am left craving more info about their history. I reckon there's a spin off novel right there.

[tiam]

Im not sure he might be but I doubt after the Domin expedition Mok was physically crippled. I just think it was a metaphor for losing faith in the Seguleh way. We see Sall, Los son I think that was his name, say to Yusek that he was told his expedition was going to be the biggest test of his life so far, but he soon realised it wasnt in regards to skill but with regards to his own beliefs.

[the broken]

Abyss, on 26 March 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 11 March 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

...
oh, and lastly:

buddhacat, on 21 February 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

By the way, just noticed an unforgivable sin - ICE called Raest's pet Tufty "Fluffy." That's just wrong.

I was convinced he called the Miner that. y'know, because of the emlava legs.
the only reason to think he mis-named tufty was because we have Rallick thinking "I hope he's referring to the cat"
which immidiately makes me think he's not.

Best.
Explanation.
EVER.

Agreed. Given Raest's sens of humour, it actually makes sense, too.


OST is suddenly growing on me.

[Abyss]

Did anyone feel the Seguleh/Moranth history felt a bit random?

It does explain the Moranth's dislike for the free cities of Genabackis as of GotM.

And i liked how it all played out. It was just the fact of the relationship that i thought seemed a little random.

- Abyss, randomly.

[worry]

A little bit, but not in a dissatisfying way. I had a similar reaction as I had with the Gilk/Forkrul Assail revelation.

[the broken]

Something occurred to me about Miner being supposedly better than Tool.


Miner's only injury is broken legs, which he has replaced. He's otherwise intact. Tool has 300,000 years of combat damage. Palla is a far better fighter,she deals significant damage, but she's fighting an undamaged corpse. Mok fights a body with hundreds of years of wear and tear. He wouldn't need to deal as much damage to win.

[tiam]

the broken, on 12 June 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

Something occurred to me about Miner being supposedly better than Tool.


Miner's only injury is broken legs, which he has replaced. He's otherwise intact. Tool has 300,000 years of combat damage. Palla is a far better fighter,she deals significant damage, but she's fighting an undamaged corpse. Mok fights a body with hundreds of years of wear and tear. He wouldn't need to deal as much damage to win.

Your concept works except for the fact that hes undead. Unless its something physical, like Onrack losing an arm, then it doesnt affect them. They have no eyes or ears for example yet can still see fine. We see that the Seguleh fighting style focuses on ligaments as one of its main forms of attack but this line of attack does not work against the Imass as its locomotion is sustained by ancient magic. Thus Tool is not severely more damaged as he hasnt had his legs ripped off. Also from what I remember from TTH the Miners injuries were done to him when he was mortal and he was accidentally absorbed into the Ritual.

Tool was thus a better fighter anyway but now has 300 000 years more experience.

Abyss- Yes it did as did the Dstan Seguleh and Cabal having HFE names and apparently leading a Genabackan confederacy once upon a time that everyone simply forgot. It seemed like a way to shoe horn the Moranth into the book and I really hope we get a good Moranth POV or something soon

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 14 June 2012 - 07:03 PM