[dawnkiller]

Abyss, on 21 April 2010 - 07:45 PM, said:

Plus Burn has her own warren, just to complicate things.

True, but so does just about everyone. Including Icarium, who had to go one step further and make a whole new set for himself.

Really, warrens are basically the Wu equivalent of a Twitter account.

[lobo the wolfman]

Wasn't K'rul referred to as the Obelisk in the Deck?

If you are both believing that Burn herself is a young goddess, then how did Raest know off her, or are you passing that off as a GOTMism. He also knows that she is sleeping and he was locked away long before the CG come to Wu. So if your theory is correct then Olar Ethil would have had to create these different aspects of herself before she partook in the T'lan ritual, and that was 300,000 years ago, which wouldn't make Burn young by any means.

[worry]

Neat theory, but I'm not a subscriber. I tend to think it's just a matter of Olar Ethil taking credit for mothering all terrestrial life because she's Eleint and apparently so closely related to Tiam. It has more to do with the notion that dragons are the essence of sorcery/magic, and that all life is magic, so all life is creditable to dragons. This doesn't really take into account the Tistes, but the life = magic stuff comes from that Shigul assassin I think so it's at least mythology. Perhaps Olar Ethil is usurping Tiam's role in her absence, or Mother Dark's in hers, and now there will be some retribution. I sense in her jealousy and insanity as primary motivations, so I still think her claims are pure boast. And she's burned a lot of bridges.

Although I suppose I'm not opposed to the notion that all sentient beings, gods and immortals and mortals alike, are all sculpted from some universal miasma. MD and FL seem to be the only two independent source entities (unless Tiam is a third, not sure how that's been clarified...or Chaos as a third). But it does seem to me that some "Elder Gods" were indeed murky beings floating around in MD or FL (predating Tiste), while others arise terrestrially, and at some point some extra-terrestrial EGs decided to tinker with Wu.

[Blend]

dawnkiller, on 21 April 2010 - 03:14 PM, said:

(BTW, do we know who L'oric's mother is? I fear I've forgotten.)

I think it's the Queen of Dreams, isn't it?

And as for the theory, I'm going to side with Worrywort on this one. Though it would be insanely interesting if the rest of you were right, and you're certainly got me wavering in my certainty, but still, I tend to think she's just a crazy bitch trying to impress what's his face who punches her in the nose!

[dawnkiller]

Regarding Burn: I define "young" only as "not Elder". She's not listed among the forces the Errant could invoke or in any of the other mentionings, so I figure she's second-generation. (Or else totally unrelated to the Elder forces, but of a similar age -- which is possible, since some of them seem to come from elsewhere.)

Was the QoD L'oric's mom, or just an ally? Damn, these alliances are confusing.

I didn't read Olar Ethil as being insane with pride. Yeah, totally unreasonable and desperately out of touch with reality, but she is stated to be extremely dangerous multiple times by the other Elder gods. Or, rather, she used to be -- dying has diminished her. And if Olar Ethil is herself associated with motherhood, even if Tiam is not, the fact she's dead (and thus removed from the life cycle) means she's basically crippled herself. Which she acknowledges:

Quote

'...that Ritual - you were cursing them! Look at you--'
'Yes! Look at me! Do I not choose to wear that curse? My own body, my own flesh! What more can I do-- . . . I have no choice in this-none! . . . I am trying to save your pathetic lives! All of you!' (DoD p.693)

(This was also the scene that convinced me that, while she's a raging bitch, it's very likely she was genuinely trying to do what she thought was right. Problem is, the Ritual removes feelings had in life, and so true remorse/mercy was a long time ago.)

Basically -- while Olar Ethil might once have been a true embodiment of some vast multi-faceted force of fecundity, she's demoted herself to exceptionally bitchy appendix. And as Torrent says, she's been split apart for so long the relation is now truth in name only. (So worrywort, I'm with you on that one.)

Here's another passage that I thought was kind of interesting in relation to the potential Tiam bloodline issue, even though it was presented as a throw-away line about the KCCM:

Quote

In an unbroken line from each mother to every daughter, memory survived, perpetuating a continuous history of experience. . . . There was a goddess of the K'Chain Che'Malle. Immortal, omniscient as such things were supposed to be. The goddess was the Matron, mahybe of the eternal oil. Once, that oil had been of such strength and volume that hundreds of matrons were needed as holy vessels. (DoD p.461-462)

While the KCCM aren't literally "first born of dragons," meaning this has no actual bearing on what dragons may or may not do, their hereditary history, passed from mother to daughter, does seem to have resonance with whatever the hell happens among Tiam's daughters. I don't mean it's the same personality reincarnating again and again (Mach and Actyl were different, for example), and certainly they don't share consciousness or anything, but maybe memories/experiences remain. This would explain why Olar Ethil claims she "is" multiple beings while still being resolutely Imass/Eleint.



-- Totally cool with being wrong as long as it's fun getting there

[Abyss]

in HoC, QoD tells Loric he hides his Liosan blood well. We don't know if that's a ref to his father Osserc, albeit an inaccurate one since Ossi isn't actually Liosan, or a ref to his Liosan mom who we've never seen. That's all we know of his parentage, i think. There may have been a hint in TtH but i'm blanking.

Back on topic, we seem to be divided between Olar Ethil as a raging lunatic, and Olar Ethil as part of a goddess d'ivers that has independent goddesses as its various bodies.

I just don't believe that SE would write that specific of a rant as a false lead. It may be deceptive, but i don't think it's outright lies.

Curiously, in TB Cotillion commented to Edgewalker that each race had its representative draconic soletaken. I wonder if the link could be along the draconic lines as opposed to Elder God. we don't know that Burn is draconic but then again, we don't know that she isn't. Tiam however, is, as is Olar.

[dawnkiller]

Yeah, with you on SE not throwing Olar Ethil's rant in for no reason. That, and the fact that she is, indisputably, a goddess -- even if she's chosen mortality, which is the path of diminishment (at least if Nightchill is any indication). She's not just some whackjob Bonecaster. She's a whackjob Bonecaster who makes Elder gods nervous and engineered a ritual that stole death from an entire race. She's indisputably less than she once was (whatever that may have been), but I don't think her street cred needs validation.

Abyss, on 22 April 2010 - 02:39 PM, said:

Curiously, in TB Cotillion commented to Edgewalker that each race had its representative draconic soletaken. I wonder if the link could be along the draconic lines as opposed to Elder God. we don't know that Burn is draconic but then again, we don't know that she isn't. Tiam however, is, as is Olar.

Hm, don't remember that, but it's an interesting thought. We know there was a Soletaken Jaghut now, which leaves us with the possibility of Soletaken FA and Soletaken KCCM. Though that last seems like it'd be slightly redundant.

Randomly, re-read parts of MT last night -- I'd forgotten the Eleint (Soletaken or otherwise) wiped out the FA city Silchas Ruin showed Kettle. Interesting that, at some point, the Eleint decided the FA had to die (and no one but Eleint were powerful enough to pull it off).

[Blend]

Abyss, on 22 April 2010 - 02:39 PM, said:

in HoC, QoD tells Loric he hides his Liosan blood well. We don't know if that's a ref to his father Osserc, albeit an inaccurate one since Ossi isn't actually Liosan, or a ref to his Liosan mom who we've never seen. That's all we know of his parentage, i think. There may have been a hint in TtH but i'm blanking.

I'm going to have to dig up that quote from HoC. I recently reread it, and was surprised by the scene and how much it seemed like QoD might actually be L'Oric's mum. I remember it seeming so dang obvious when I was rereading!

[worry]

On Olar Ethil's benevolence: she claims to be trying to save "all of you," which could mean humans or could mean all terrestrial life. Now on a mundane level, she differs from other Elder Gods by being undead, which could mean she has revoked bloodlust as a form of worship. We know the other EGs, even the possible "good guys" like K'rul and Mael, are entirely drenched in blood. She could also be referencing the Ritual of Tellann specifically, which I think is part of the truth. In DoD she admits it's something of a curse on the Imass...in other words, she wasn't trying to help them so much as bind them. If she's bound them in their obsession with the Jaghut, then they're less likely to go conquering all peoples, and namely humans. Alternatively, there could be a link between her remaining undead and preventing the return of Tiam...nobody knows Tiam's point of view, but it could be she wants to destroy every non-Eleint in the universe. She hasn't chosen mortality, or T'lan style immortality...she's still an Elder God. It just so happens that she has to remain undead to protect humanity from some threat or another.

That's all face value supposition, but ultimately I just don't believe OE is benevolent. It's possible she's a Rake-like figure making the difficult personal sacrifice, but I can't see her being so selfless. I can't recall everything that's made me feel this way, but her treatment of Toc and Tool in DoD is enough to suspect she's working some angle. I mean, if the Elder Gods are on the verge of extinction, she may be working that angle to be the last Elder standing.

A lot of this might come down to how old Wu is, especially if Wu and Burn are one and the same entity, but as far as we know there was life and civilization (and gods) on Wu/Burn before the likes of Draconus, Osserc, and the Tiste decided to pop in. The Elder Gods may have existed in Dark and Light for however long, but on Wu they in some ways have arrogantly overestimated their importance to mortals. For all we know, MD created EGs in response to primitive humanoid worship, but obviously some ancient terrestrial beings ascended (Togg & Fanderay) without cosmic origin. It could be that despite the KCCM belief that the dragons birthed them, Tiam et al were only created in response to draconic worship by the KCCM. They created a mythology and worshiped accordingly, and the dragons blipped into existence as a result. That's just an idea, and it kinda sounds too much like like Harold and the Purple Crayon or whatever.

I suppose it's possible that while MD (and FL) are creating their own children, and Tiam is creating hers, Olar Ethil alone among the EGs is inspired (through jealousy? admiration?) to create her own planet to populate...and her world was later encroached upon by other EGs who just couldn't let it be, given the petty sibling rivalry all gods seem to succumb to. So if OE is the creator god of Wu, then that might explain her statement without it coming down to a purely D'ivers explanation.

I don't necessarily believe any of this, as I primarily believe that OE is just the third and tricksiest link in the Tiam/Korabas puzzle, but I do agree that there is something about her that will explain a lot of mysteries. On the other hand, and I'm just throwing it out there, but perhaps Edgewalker is a key in the puzzle that is Olar Ethil. He's the other undead Elder God that we know of, and it's curious that he doesn't seem to need worshipers for any of his limited power (again, that we know of). But I suppose if one big unknown is the Tiam/Korabas/Olar Ethil stuff, then the second is the creation of Shadow in the meeting of Light and Dark, and they don't necessarily have to be related answers. The Crippled God makes up a third major mystery, and I think it's the only one that is going to be laid out with any certainty. I kinda think SE and ICE are content to let the murkiest aspects of the mythology remain shrouded in mystery, since that seems kinda natural in the monumental task of creating a real-world yet still mythology-bound origin story.

[tiam]

On a side note here, why is Sechul Lath, an FA, calling Kilmandaros mother is some here believe OE to be mother to the FA. Also does that make Lath an EG or simply a god that is elder? In the same way Nerruse must be

[Abyss]

Her various rants in DoD really leave it wide opn as to whether she's on the 'save the world' side or the 'in order to save the world we must pound it into muddy red mush' side. or just nuts.

Just to compound things, while Draconic soletaken don't seem to be prone to the madness that other shapeshifters (animal soletaken and d'ivers, generally) tend towards, Silchas does mention that draconic soletaken are prone to a bunch of other selfish and suspicious mental states.

Confounding all this, Olar apparently assisted the Malazan Empire back in Kellanved's days in her guise of 'just a' T'lan Imass Bonecaster. Even when she shows up in DG and MoI we really don't get any insight into her or hints of what she is.

[dawnkiller]

Tiam: We don't really know what Olar Ethil's relation to the FA is, or even the Jaghut -- the only ones she explicitly named herself mother of were the Eres'al and the Imass. Not sure about Setch, but he's listed as an Elder force so I'm just going to go with that.


Olar Ethil's definition of "save" is probably pretty out there, but I get the sense that the reason she cursed them in the first place is because they were screwing up the natural world and thus nearly hunted themselves into famine. We have the testimony of Tool over the course of several books, including DoD, that they caused the extinction of several species, including (nearly) the bhederin. So when Olar Ethil speaks of saving everyone, I don't think she's talking exclusively of the human race.

Interesting, we also have this exchange between Olar Ethil and Curdle:

Quote

'Dessimbelackis. He held Chaos in his hands. He told us its secret-what he had made of it. He was desperate. His people-humans-were making a mess of things. They sstood as if separate from all the animals of the world. They imagined they were the rulers of nature. And cruel their tyranny, so cruel. Slaughtering animals, making the lands barren deserts, the skies empty but for vultures.'
'Soletaken. D'ivers. He created a ritual out of chaos-to bind humans to the beasts, to force upon them their animal natures. He sought to teach them a lesson. About themselves.'
'Yes, Elder. Yes to all of that. He brought the ritual to his people-oh, it was an old ritual, much older than Dessimbelackis, much older than this world. He forced it upon his subjects.' (DoD p.692)

I think this reveals some interesting details about being Soletaken, and, possibly, why Olar Ethil introduced the ability to the Imass in the first place -- intended as a reminder that they're not so different from the animals they depend on. From this, and the earlier quote that few people managed to defeat the megalomania of draconic blood, I'm starting to suspect that the so-called "madness" isn't an imposition or infection in itself, but something integral to the Soletaken that's brought out by access to the other form. Once the trappings of civilization are removed the true nature is exposed, etc. etc.. It would explain why only a few, like Rake, can resist the urge. I imagine if you have inherent decency and self-control you have less to fight against when you veer.

[Abyss]

Maybe, but i don't think we've seen a single animal shapeshifter who wasn't nuts or damaged in some way, the exception being Moby. Buke was a mess before he veered, Bauch and KB are far from sane, Iccy or Mappo noted even Messremb wasn't exacly playing with a full deck, Trake lost himself in his tiger form, Ryllandaras did some whacky stuff to himself, Silverfox had massive issues, Gryllen... curiously the Imass Bonecasters appear to be sane (living and dead), but that may be an effect of the Ritual or their clan link.

On the draconic side we've seen Korlat and Orfantal, who seem to be curiously normal, tho perhaps that's down to Rake's influence, and Rudd, who is fairly young as these things go.

[Illuyankas]

What about Quick Ben, he seems stabAHAHAAHAHAHAHA so bad at keeping a straight face

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I was re-reading Olar Ethil and Rud's exchange today and I'm curious as to what Kilava did to the dear old hag, since Olar has her petty little moment of "Tell her I forgive her, she can keep her husband" blah blah rant.

Stone Bitch for the Jaghut being promised - she references plagues and things, which have happened, so I suppose that aspect could be on the rise?

I really, really, really, want the Nachts to get her. Or Telorast and Curdle. If its not three gimps with a stick then I'll take termination by deranged skelizards. Or at a push, Cartographer.

[Fox]

Hellian, on 23 April 2010 - 07:46 PM, said:

I was re-reading Olar Ethil and Rud's exchange today and I'm curious as to what Kilava did to the dear old hag, since Olar has her petty little moment of "Tell her I forgive her, she can keep her husband" blah blah rant.

Stone Bitch for the Jaghut being promised - she references plagues and things, which have happened, so I suppose that aspect could be on the rise?

I really, really, really, want the Nachts to get her. Or Telorast and Curdle. If its not three gimps with a stick then I'll take termination by deranged skelizards. Or at a push, Cartographer.

Kilava refused to participate in the Ritual of Tellan- I assume that's what the grudge was about , and Onrack, unlike poor Tool, is still alive, and apparently Her desiccated bitchiness is saying she won't try to take him back into the Ritual. Or something.

[dawnkiller]

Fox, on 26 April 2010 - 06:04 AM, said:

Kilava refused to participate in the Ritual of Tellan- I assume that's what the grudge was about , and Onrack, unlike poor Tool, is still alive, and apparently Her desiccated bitchiness is saying she won't try to take him back into the Ritual. Or something.

Maybe it's also because Kilava supposedly "birthed" humans as they are now? Dryj...Dryja...the Whirlwind Goddess may have been absolutely nuts on this matter, so it's questionable, but I think HoC noted Kilava as one of the progenitors of the current human race. There's a problem here in that we know she's got one Imass kid in the Refugium, but he might be special because he was Onrack's; we don't really know if she has any more out there. Either way, given the trauma-dump Olar gave Tool about modern-type humans eating Imass, part of the pissiness may be that Kilava's children supplanted OE's.


(Soylent Green is Imass! IMAAAAAASS! ...sorry, that's been in there for a while.)

[Abyss]

Just to complicate matters, when QB, Bottle and Aranict are discussing Draconus' return, QB freaks about all the Imass in the Wastelands and Bottle notes that Kellanved/ST never gave up the First Throne, so he could be the reason they are there.

Now it appears that QB and co are unaware of Olar Ethil's involvement, but i can't help but wonder whether ST/Cot are actually behind her taking an active role.

And just to complicate things further we have CG's Imass the Unbound, which we know from RG may include way more Imass than just the six left at the end of HoC,

[Silk]

Quote

While the KCCM aren't literally "first born of dragons," meaning this has no actual bearing on what dragons may or may not do, their hereditary history, passed from mother to daughter, does seem to have resonance with whatever the hell happens among Tiam's daughters. I don't mean it's the same personality reincarnating again and again (Mach and Actyl were different, for example), and certainly they don't share consciousness or anything, but maybe memories/experiences remain. This would explain why Olar Ethil claims she "is" multiple beings while still being resolutely Imass/Eleint.



-- Totally cool with being wrong as long as it's fun getting there

This brings a massive light bulb to my head around a quote by Sulkit towards the end of DoD after Icarium has wandered off somewhere.... she is making something.. .something old... could it not be that she is making Tiam again? (This could be how Tiam gets resurected) I doubt she would be trying to make more Nah Ruk. Maybe she is trying to make even older beings such as Dragons?

[lobo the wolfman]

Abyss, on 28 April 2010 - 02:12 PM, said:

Just to complicate matters, when QB, Bottle and Aranict are discussing Draconus' return, QB freaks about all the Imass in the Wastelands and Bottle notes that Kellanved/ST never gave up the First Throne, so he could be the reason they are there.Now it appears that QB and co are unaware of Olar Ethil's involvement, but i can't help but wonder whether ST/Cot are actually behind her taking an active role.And just to complicate things further we have CG's Imass the Unbound, which we know from RG may include way more Imass than just the six left at the end of HoC,

I could be wrong but didn't ST's hold on the First Throne weaken after he became a god, even with Monok Ochem re powering the Throne? It was always weak at the start as he could only control the Kron Clan of Imass because they where the closest and even then he didn't want to push that control any further then he had to. Another point is, wasn't the birth and the reaching of maturity of Silverfox was also meant to negate the First Thrones influence?