[Ulrik]

H.D., on 18 April 2010 - 07:18 AM, said:

Once again, if so, who is the then anthropomorphic Father?

There is none. Even prehistoric societies worshipped (through artefacts etc) mother, mothership, figures with mother-like...erm...atributes (yeah, really big boobs and ass). Cult of mother is due to her ability to give a birth widespread. Cult of father, well, maybe he existed somewhere over the rainbow, but sadly to say...father wasnt so important. Key part is giving birth, nursing... So , so no need for father...we are only replacable seed-carriers...

[Ulrik]

And one thing - I do not think that OE is MD personally. She is something like Mael, worship of some power (in this case, power of birth) transformed into something. Simply Elder God. MD is from foreign world. But is Mother also. And Olar Ethil really likes to boast.
IMo her feeling is "Im symbol of all mothers of all nations". But she doesnt have to be connected personally to Stone bitch etc. OE is collective worship formed into Elder God, Stone Bitch could be real founder of Jaghut, worshipped like mother...and OE boasts that she is every mother. MOTHER.

[HoosierDaddy]

MTS, on 18 April 2010 - 10:22 AM, said:

H.D., on 18 April 2010 - 10:12 AM, said:

Seriously, these theories are approaching One God territory, and that is always dangerous grounds for a fantasy series. Erikson has purposefully created a series with multiple Gods. I see no reason to begin connecting all of them for no better reason than one God claimed to be many. Even IF Olar Ethil was the embodiment of many Gods, she certainly isn't ALL of them.

Mother Dark as Olar Ethil? Despite the fact that M.D. speaks to characters in DoD and is reproduced in TtH and resets Kurald Galain into Black Coral.

I don't mind crazy theories, but I'd like them to be somewhat plausible.

I am skeptical of the 'One-God'edness as well, however due to the symbiotic nature of the elemental forces at play, it's not drawing too long of a bow I think to make a connection, so I'm not going to throw it out based on that. The problem I think, is that Eispeis draws too much out of two lines.

'I have had a face in darkness'. That does not imply that Olar is MD, not by a long shot. It's very much open to interpretation, but I don't think it means she is MD. All it means is she was involved with Darkness at one point. Draconus could be said to have a face in darkness, and so could Nightchill (although that's less clear).

'I have had a son in Shadow, a bastard in light.' If, as Eispeis claims, she was the mother of the Edur, Shake and Liosan (a claim that we can't even reliably pin on MD herself), I would imagine the noun there would be plural, not singular. She definitely hasn't mothered either race, only had sons in either. The absolute best that could be taken from that is that she is Osserc's and an Edur/Shake's (Scabandari's?) mother, which is a bold claim again.

I'm drunk and you are stating it better than I have. So thanks, for that, MTS.

However, I still believe it's a bad precedence and think Olar Ethil is a liar of epic proportions. Perhaps she set things in motion, but that doesn't make her the God of them anymore. If the Errant has been displaced, what would the creator of the Eres'al God have on any mortal race? What use is the Jaghut "Stone Bitch" to the world? Or the Forkrul Assail God?

They are POWERLESS BEINGS. No wonder they want to go suck up Kaminsod's power. They have none of their fucking own. Is it surprising that the younger God's are getting sick of them? They have no purpose anymore, other than existing for their own purposes. They are OUTSIDE the system, and thus their only way to continually exist is to continually either suck Kaminsod's power or bleed mortals (which I'm sure ST and Cot's aren't happy with).

I feel smarter now.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

The different names among the different races she claims have always bothered me. Stone Bitch, of course makes it seemlike at best she wasn't a very well liked goddess amongst the Jaghut (understandable since she started the ritual that almost exterminated them) but also Rath Evain. The Capustan masked council is all called Rath'(god), meaning priest/priestess of that god. So perhaps she just took on the form of an FA, lived among them for a few centuries, and later on decided she was really their goddess? Kind of like Draconus moving to Kharkanas and pretending to be a Tiste Andii Duke.

[Ulrik]

But we can say she is Stone Cold Bitch...

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

Well, there is that story about the one god that went crackers because of its different faces of worship. Would be fitting if there actually was ~one~ of the gods who had that problem. Or OE is just naturally undead crackers.

[Eispeis]

H.D., on 18 April 2010 - 10:39 AM, said:

What use is the Jaghut "Stone Bitch" to the world? Or the Forkrul Assail God?

They are POWERLESS BEINGS. No wonder they want to go suck up Kaminsod's power. They have none of their fucking own.

I feel smarter now.

And you should

I don't really find my theory plausible in the least, just thought I rid myself of the crazy.

What you say above though made me think of all the forgotten gods Brys has "remembered". Could be that Mme Ethil is a "representative" for the beings she claims to be, in the same way that Brys holds the names of several retired gods. Can also be that I'm confusing Pratchett's Small Gods with DoD

[Abyss]

The implication is that she is one aspect of some form of d'ivers elder goddess. of course, she could be making shit up or insane, but the theory does offer a possible explanation for the 'I am Burn!' rant.

And just to complicate matters, about two chapters on, the elder Gods gather and Sechul or Errant accuse her of being Tiam's mother, sister, and/or child. AND lover, just to REALLY mess us up.

Y'know, we've seen Keruli, who was an 'aspect' of Krul, and the Not-Andii in RCG who may have been an aspect of Draconus.

The 'Mother Darks first children were not Tiste Andii' comment in MT is usually understood to refer to the Elder Gods, but the concept of 'mother' and 'child' is pretty wide open when we're discussing a creator of the universe who can spawn without a mate. Suppose they aren't children so much as avatars like Keruli, who gather sufficient power to take on other aspects, and so on.

- Abyss, now with thinkymeatz hurtses...

[Hetan]

Edrigan, on 12 April 2010 - 03:50 AM, said:

I kinda wonder why people say 'Eleint Soletaken' instead of " XXX Soletaken Dragonic" where XXX defines the -race-.

In the series we see Eriksson reffering to "T'lann Lmass Bonecaster Soletaken" , "Tiste Andii Soletaken" etc.

First comes the race, then a title or class, then the shapeshifting ability, and lastly we get to know which is their second form by obverving their fur if they are Lmass.So if we talk about 'Eleint Soletakens' then we are refering to pureblooded dragons which have the ability to shapeshift to a second form.Although I believe there is only ONE prooven Eleint Soletaken (Oral Ethil) I do understand though that when people speak of Eleint Soletaken in this thread and others, arent talking about pureblooded dragons with this ability, but more about characters of races other than dragonic with the ability to veer into a dragonic form.

These things are different though, aren't they? Is my train of thoughts wrong?


EDIT: Just to clarify things a bit more, the people I am refering to are some of my friends that say 'eleint soletaken' when they are talking about someone like Korlat for example or Silchas Ruin... and because the same thing is done in http://encyclopediam...orks.com/Eleint where Korlat for example is listed as a Soletaken Tiste Andii which basically means they have the ability to shapeshift into a Tiste Andii when in fact its the opposite.


And I don't understand why people believe Oral Ethil is a T'lan.

T'iam is an Eleint. (correct/false)
Oral Ethil is T'iams daughter. (correct/false)
Oral Ethil is an Eleint as well. (correct/false)
Oral Ethil was the first Soletaken by choosing to shift into the body of a Lmass woman. (correct/false)
Oral Ethil was the mother of Bonecasters teaching them the ability to become 'Soletakens' (ie veer into a different form). (correct/false).
Somehow other races gained the ability to become Soletakens, mainly through a process that has to do with true dragon blood being absorbed by their body. (correct/false)

So, by this, we can safely say that Oral Ethil is in fact an Eleint Soletaken Bonecaster T'lann Lmass (meaning a trueblooded dragon with the ability to veer into a T'lan Lmass, though for her own reasons she is now more fond of her Lmass form that spends her entire life into it, only changing back to her true form when the need arises - the fact that she is undead in her true form as well is connected with the Tellan Ritual, after all she created it so she suffers from it as well).

Its very very early in the morning here, and I've been unable to sleep, so if you somehow come up with a reasonable arguement as to how my string of thoughts is flawed I apologise beforehand

I think this is very good reasoning. Silchas also speculates that Draconus may have been a true eleint who chose the form of a Tiste Andii, so if he thinks it possible for them to take human form, I don't have any reason to doubt him.

[masan's saddle]

Just a random point connected to the discussion above about Olar being "mother to the FA", i'm pretty sure Killy says that she is mother to the FA in DOD somewhere ?

Or am I missing something totally obvious here ?

[Abyss]

masan, on 19 April 2010 - 04:28 PM, said:

Just a random point connected to the discussion above about Olar being "mother to the FA", i'm pretty sure Killy says that she is mother to the FA in DOD somewhere ?

Or am I missing something totally obvious here ?

In RG Gothos tells Kila her 'children' have gone astray. It's unclear which race he's referring to. FA and Imass are the logical possibilities, FA for their general nuttiness and Imass for their tendency to kill Jaghuts a lot.
Also in RG, Sechul, an FA or at least he looks like one, calls Kila 'Mother'.
Kila is repeatedly described in terms that call to mind the FA (too many joints) and the T3 (bigmassiveHUGE).
Just to complicate things, in DoD she 'takes the form' of a Tel Akai.

Olar makes a whole bunch of claims. We do know she's draconic soletaken, but her rants and other things in DoD suggest she may be more than that.

I toy with the notion that Olar and Kila may even be independant 'bodies' of the same Elder God d'ivers, but nothing really suggests that.

So i go with Olar is saying she has been a goddess to various races, in various forms at various times, but not that she's actually the progenitor of every race ever.

But i could be wrong.

- Abyss, ...is basically saying that Olar Ethil is a skanky ho...

[Hetan]

Olar Ethil is not mother to the Forkrul Assail - she was known to them as Rath Evain.

[dawnkiller]

Abyss, I can't help but notice your realization came about 2 days after I posted something similar to the Dragon thread...

Anyway, people wanted supporting quotes? Because I can bring the quotes. Some have been referenced already, but I took these as I read and felt I might as well throw 'em in anyway. Once in a while I'll bold things I thought especially relevant.

Quote

Olar Ethil: 'From my ancient blood ran every stream of Soletaken and D'ivers. And my blood, ah, it was but half Imass, perhaps even less. I am old beyond your imagining, warrior. Older than this world. I lived in darkness, I walked in purest light, I cast curses upon shadow. My hands were chipped stone, my eyes spawned the first fires to huddle round, my legs spread to the first mortal child. I am known by so many names even I have forgotten most of them.
...Parts of me sleep, tormented by sickness. Others rail in the fury of summer storms. I am the drinker of birth waters. And blood. And the rain of weeping and the oil of ordeal. I did not lie, mortal, when I told you that the spirits of your worship are my children. I am the bringer of a land's bounty. I am the cruel thief of want, the sower of suffering.
So many names...Eran'ishal, Mother to the Eres'al -- my first and most sentimental of choices. Rath Evain to the Forkrul Assail. Stone Bitch to the Jaghut. I have had a face in darkness, a son in shadow, a bastard in light. I have been named the Mother Beneath the Mountains, Ayala Alalle who tends the Gardens of the Moon, for ever awaiting her lover. I am Burn the Sleeping Goddess, in whose dreams life flowers unending, even as those dreams twist into nightmares. I am scattered to the very edge of the Abyss, the possessor of more faces than any other Elder.'
Torrent: 'Perhaps you were once all those things, Olar Ethil. But not any more. It's all torn away from you, isn't it? Scattered and lost, when you gave up life -- when you chose to become this thing of bones--"
Olar Ethil: 'I am promised! The Stone Bitch shall awaken once more, in plague winds and devouring locusts, in wildfires and drowning dust and sand! And you will fall upon each other, rending flesh with teeth and nails! You will choose evil in fullest knowledge of what you do-- I am coming, mortal, the earth awakened to judgement! And you shall kneel, pleading, begging--your kind, human, shall make pathos your epitaph, for I will give you nothing, yield not a single instant of mercy!' --DoD p. 456-457

I'm not inclined to think all these claims are hyperbole, honestly -- mostly because it would make this cryptic exchange between Osserc and his daughters suddenly more relevant:

Quote

'This is a dread mess. I would wash my hands of it - all of it.'
'But you can't. We're all poisoned by the mother's blood, after all--'
'Her daughters have fared worse than poison! There is nothing balanced to this shattering of selves. Look at us! Spiteful bitches - Tiam's squalling heads rearing up again and again, generation after generation! And what of you, Father? That she-nightmare sails out on feathered wings from the dark of another realm, legs spread oh so wide and inviting, and were you not first in line? Pure Osserc, First Son of Dark and Light, so precious! Yet there you were, weaving your blood with that whore - tell us, did you proclaim her your sister before or after you fucked her?'
'You shouldn't speak of your mother that way, Sukul. She died giving birth to you, after all--'
'She died giving birth to us all! Dies, and is reborn. Tiam and her children. Tiam and her lovers. Her thousand deaths, and yet nothing changes!' (MT p.196-197)

I'm not sure we're talking D'ivers as traditionally thought, but I think there is a degree of aspecting at work here. Some essence, I guess, that she imparts on her daughters -- unrelated to the megalomania that comes pre-packaged with Eleint blood. A "shattering of selves". Something like how Sechul Lath says he spawned the Twins to take over his sphere. They're all aspects of the same thing (chance), but they're also distinct personalities. Except I suspect that, with Tiam, certain personality traits are inherited as well. Specifically the ones that make the female aspects especially violent towards one another.

If I had to guess, and Olar Ethil is in fact speaking as an aspect of Tiam, I'd say Tiam's particular aspect is fecundity and the life cycle -- I mean, her defining features are gettin' it on, having kids, and dying. Olar Ethil indicates "she" controls plenty and poverty, and she can be gently dreaming or, you know, full-on plague-bringing. It honestly reminds me of the Kali/Durga/Parvati situation in Hinduism; the three vastly different faces of one.

Nature is a bitch . . .


For convenience, here are some on Olar Ethil's role, relationship with other Elders, and her diminishment:

Quote

'You imagine [you sense Olar Ethil], nothing more. Tiam's daughter did not outlive her mother-- this thing has embraced the Ritual of Tellann--she is less than she once was.'
'Less, and more, I think.' (DoD p.491)

'How did it go again? Your mother's lover and child both? Just how did you beget yourself, Olar Ethil?' (DoD p.492)

'You are worse than K'rul. More of a threat to us than Draconus, or Edgewalker. You are Eleint and you are T'lan Imass, and both were every beyond our control.' (DoD p.494)

'Bonecaster, I know your name. I know you are the Maker of the Ritual of Tellann. That without you all the will of the Imass would have achieved nothing. The One Voice was yours. You took a people and stole from them death itself.' (DoD p.647)

'You are only what you once were, that and nothing more. If Kilava wishes to remain undetected, so it shall be. You do not rule this world, Olar Ethil. You surrendered that privilege long ago, with your very own Ritual.' (DoD p.648)

'Why does she possess a hundred heads? It is to mock an impossible concord.' (DoD p.647)

Slightly back on the original topic (sort of), Olar Ethil speaks of D'ivers/Soletaken matters when confronting Telorast and Curdle:

Quote

'Soletaken, or, I think, D'ivers, yes? Born as Tiste Andii, one woman, but two dragons . . . Impossible for most -- even among the Andii. Yet, you found a way, didn't you? The blood of the Eleint resists the fever of D'ivers. A ritual would have been necessary. But what kind? Not Kurald Galain, nor Kurald Emurlahn...' (DoD p.691)

Interesting that she singled out D'ivers in particular as being an impossibility (for most), and that she refers to it as a fever, as if that's even more unnatural than Soletaken. Perhaps it's some kind of reaction to that "splitting of selves"?

(I will also note that Curdle and Telorast being stuck into a single body isn't really all that weird -- I mean, Quick Ben timeshares with WAY more people. The only difference is that it resulted in the host-Andii becoming an eleint D'ivers.)



-- Rearing one of my own hundred heads

[Abyss]

Tiam as the 'main body'... Olar and others as 'divers bodies that have gone independant... now that's an interesting theory.

This part in particular confuses me...

"I have had a face in darkness, a son in shadow, a bastard in light. "

we've seen Osserc ref'd as the Bastard of Light. we could speculate that Scabby was the son in shadow... but 'face' in darkness...? Rake and his bros are (supposedly) the sons of Mommy D, which doesn't flow back to 'face' in any logical sense i can see (pun intended).

Tho now that i think about it, Rake and bros parentage isn't (usually) in question, while Scabby and Ossi are way more vague... Scabby has made claims of godhood but never really said Mommy D was his mom, and Osserc seems to be the Son of Father Light, but no one actually says FL was sheboinging Mommy D to make that happen.

Hmmm...

Suppose Mommy D, as creator of the universe and all that good stuff, is hanging around in Kurald Galain, a conceptual space of darkness inside a wider space of chaos aka Starvald Demelain. Bored, she creates the Elder Gods in her own image - being an amophous blob of universal darkness, they too are blobs - essentially this is the first instance of 'divers. Then she creates a 'universe' and worlds inside it. Her 'children' reflections go to this world. When life evolves, its beliefs affect the elder blobs, shaping them or allowing them to shape themselves, into elder gods - and this is the first instance of shapeshifting. Somewhere along the way MD also makes the Andii world inside KG, meets FL, creates the other Elder warrens, etc etc but in the mean time the Elder Gods are active on the main world and being directly descended from MD, some of them experiment with creating other bodies, avatars or whatever...

Y'know, when we keep reading about Shadowthrone being 'overextended', i wonder whether he hasn't replicated the original d'ivers power to allow himself to be in multiple places at the same time.

And now my head hurts. Thanks DK.

- Abyss, will send you the bill for the Tylenol.

[dawnkiller]

Regarding the "face in Darkness" part, I assumed she meant an aspect -- I mean, if her sphere is motherhood/general fertility and the life-cycle this represents, MD herself could be considered a "face" of Tiam and vice-versa. If we consider MD to be an entity of order, or at least clean delineation (Light from Dark, Shadow from both, etc), then Tiam, as a being of Chaos and comingling, might be her opposite. Not necessarily the same entity, but, as Sechul Lath shows us, the existence of one facet necessitates the existence of its opposing force. And then there's this little detail from Yedan:

'I think that Mother Dark and Father Light, in binding themselves to each other, in turn bound their fates. And when she turned away, so did he. He had no choice-they had become forces intertwined, perfect reflections.' (DoD p.585)

. . . so we're already into the realm of massive primal forces being inextricably snarled, providing Yedan's assessment has basis in fact.


Alternately, Tiam (I'm pretty sure Olar Ethil is speaking "as" Tiam, so I'm just using that name) had an avatar, aspect, whatever in Dark, distinct from MD. We've seen that Draconus lived there long enough to have personal quarters in KG, and if one Elder did . . .


IMO there's something interesting going on here with MD and Tiam. MD's children, spiritual or otherwise, appear to be more "traditional": ie, the parent has the child, the child lives its own life, making its own choices. Tiam's children, on the other hand, seem to be trapped in their lineage. The intolerance for one another and chronic betrayal, the megalomania of her blood -- something about their begetting is effed up, and it restricts their choices. I'm not sure why, but perhaps the problem of balance enters into it somewhere. If Tiam's ilk do represents the life cycle, both good aspects and bad, then one of those forces overcoming any of the others would massively screw things up. You can't have all famine, and you can't have all plenty; without the push and pull of opposites there's only stasis. It may be that conflict is not only an integral part of her bloodline, but a necessity.


(BTW, do we know who L'oric's mother is? I fear I've forgotten.)

[champ]

is there any chance at all that the son could be Draconus? rumoured to be full blood eleint, would like the darkness, wild thought after reading dawnkillers post

dont know if theres any facts blocking that theory as my mind is mush after a mental day at work =D


Edit

Quote

I'm not sure why, but perhaps the problem of balance enters into it somewhere.

creation of the draginpur?

This post has been edited by champooon: 21 April 2010 - 03:38 PM

[PizzaBread]

Quote. Tho now that i think about it, Rake and bros parentage isn't (usually) in question, while Scabby and Ossi are way more vague... Scabby has made claims of godhood but never really said Mommy D was his mom, and Osserc seems to be the Son of Father Light, but no one actually says FL was sheboinging Mommy D to make that happen.

Hmmm...

Suppose Mommy D, as creator of the universe and all that good stuff, is hanging around in Kurald Galain, a conceptual space of darkness inside a wider space of chaos aka Starvald Demelain. Bored, she creates the Elder Gods in her own image - being an amophous blob of universal darkness, they too are blobs - essentially this is the first instance of 'divers. Then she creates a 'universe' and worlds inside it. Her 'children' reflections go to this world. When life evolves, its beliefs affect the elder blobs, shaping them or allowing them to shape themselves, into elder gods - and this is the first instance of shapeshifting. Somewhere along the way MD also makes the Andii world inside KG, meets FL, creates the other Elder warrens, etc etc but in the mean time the Elder Gods are active on the main world and being directly descended from MD, some of them experiment with creating other bodies, avatars or whatever... End Quote

Hi guys, this is my first ever post so I think I won't try and stretch myself to far and please forgive if you find what I say totally wrong. But in regards to Osserc the RoTCG prologue says that he existed in light before FL met MD. On the subject of MD creating the universe and D'iver's and what not I always assumed that was from the legends of the Andii, and thus opinion, as they dwelt alone for millenia. I've been under the assumption that the world of WU was achored by someone's dream example being Silverfox's mother.

Sorry again if this is wrong or off topic

[Abyss]

PizzaBread, on 21 April 2010 - 03:56 PM, said:

Hi guys, this is my first ever post so I think I won't try and stretch myself to far and please forgive if you find what I say totally wrong. But in regards to Osserc the RoTCG prologue says that he existed in light before FL met MD. On the subject of MD creating the universe and D'iver's and what not I always assumed that was from the legends of the Andii, and thus opinion, as they dwelt alone for millenia. I've been under the assumption that the world of WU was achored by someone's dream example being Silverfox's mother.

Sorry again if this is wrong or off topic

welcome, and you're right on topic, no worries.
Good quote fu on the Osserc origin... altho as usual we have to take anything said about anyone as dubious/subjective...

The Mhybe's sleep is somehow linked to the creation of the Beast Hold, and in MoI it's implied that Burn's sleep may be linked to the world - the actual suggestion is that she is sleeping to keep the CG down, not to 'dream the world', but Murillio's chat with Hood drops a few hints, if for no other reason than to mess with us - but we think we know that the world existed before Burn shoed up and started snoozing...

...except that the above discussion throws that into doubt, since Burn could actually be an aspect of a way older goddess who herself could be linked to Mother Dark and now i need a drink and possibly some pills...

[dawnkiller]

Abyss, on 21 April 2010 - 07:29 PM, said:

...except that the above discussion throws that into doubt, since Burn could actually be an aspect of a way older goddess who herself could be linked to Mother Dark and now i need a drink and possibly some pills...

Wasn't it said in a past book that Burn was originally the Unaligned Obelisk?

Anyway . . . since we now know Sechul Lath spawned the Twins (an Elder effectively birthing the "new" branch of gods and surrendering his sphere), it's not unreasonable to think that Burn herself is a compartively young goddess, or at least not Elder, but may have been created due to a need by one of the elder forces -- perhaps a predecessor. Looking at the list of Holds, I'd say "Dolmen" is the most likely candidate as point of origin, but you know, wild mass guessing here.

(I've given up trying to figure out who ultimately created the human world of Wu. To my knowledge we've yet to find a god that's directly credited to it, unlike, say, MD and FL.)

[Abyss]

dawnkiller, on 21 April 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

Abyss, on 21 April 2010 - 07:29 PM, said:

...except that the above discussion throws that into doubt, since Burn could actually be an aspect of a way older goddess who herself could be linked to Mother Dark and now i need a drink and possibly some pills...

Wasn't it said in a past book that Burn was originally the Unaligned Obelisk?
...

i could be wrong but i vaguely think the Obelisk card in the Deck has at various points ref's Burn, Icarium, Brood, the T3 race and/or Asterix's portly friend, so no help there.

Plus Burn has her own warren, just to complicate things.