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A soletaken WHAT? And Olar Ethil is WHO? all things shapeshifty and goddish... Rate Topic: -----

#41 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 02:26 PM

 anothevilbadguy, on 19 February 2010 - 12:09 AM, said:

...It also seems people are misinterpreting the quote, he doesn't say there is only one soletaken Jaghut, he just says only one had control over it....


VERY good point.

Tho the actual revelation was that Jaghut could be soletaken at all, you're right, there could have been more.

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#42 User is offline   Edrigan 

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 03:50 AM

I kinda wonder why people say 'Eleint Soletaken' instead of " XXX Soletaken Dragonic" where XXX defines the -race-.

In the series we see Eriksson reffering to "T'lann Lmass Bonecaster Soletaken" , "Tiste Andii Soletaken" etc.

First comes the race, then a title or class, then the shapeshifting ability, and lastly we get to know which is their second form by obverving their fur if they are Lmass.So if we talk about 'Eleint Soletakens' then we are refering to pureblooded dragons which have the ability to shapeshift to a second form.Although I believe there is only ONE prooven Eleint Soletaken (Oral Ethil) I do understand though that when people speak of Eleint Soletaken in this thread and others, arent talking about pureblooded dragons with this ability, but more about characters of races other than dragonic with the ability to veer into a dragonic form.

These things are different though, aren't they? Is my train of thoughts wrong?


EDIT: Just to clarify things a bit more, the people I am refering to are some of my friends that say 'eleint soletaken' when they are talking about someone like Korlat for example or Silchas Ruin... and because the same thing is done in http://encyclopediam...orks.com/Eleint where Korlat for example is listed as a Soletaken Tiste Andii which basically means they have the ability to shapeshift into a Tiste Andii when in fact its the opposite.


And I don't understand why people believe Oral Ethil is a T'lan.

T'iam is an Eleint. (correct/false)
Oral Ethil is T'iams daughter. (correct/false)
Oral Ethil is an Eleint as well. (correct/false)
Oral Ethil was the first Soletaken by choosing to shift into the body of a Lmass woman. (correct/false)
Oral Ethil was the mother of Bonecasters teaching them the ability to become 'Soletakens' (ie veer into a different form). (correct/false).
Somehow other races gained the ability to become Soletakens, mainly through a process that has to do with true dragon blood being absorbed by their body. (correct/false)

So, by this, we can safely say that Oral Ethil is in fact an Eleint Soletaken Bonecaster T'lann Lmass (meaning a trueblooded dragon with the ability to veer into a T'lan Lmass, though for her own reasons she is now more fond of her Lmass form that spends her entire life into it, only changing back to her true form when the need arises - the fact that she is undead in her true form as well is connected with the Tellan Ritual, after all she created it so she suffers from it as well).

Its very very early in the morning here, and I've been unable to sleep, so if you somehow come up with a reasonable arguement as to how my string of thoughts is flawed I apologise beforehand :D

This post has been edited by Edrigan: 12 April 2010 - 04:25 AM

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#43 User is offline   WhiskeyJackDaniels 

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 05:21 AM

 Edrigan, on 12 April 2010 - 03:50 AM, said:

I kinda wonder why people say 'Eleint Soletaken' instead of " XXX Soletaken Dragonic" where XXX defines the -race-.

In the series we see Eriksson reffering to "T'lann Lmass Bonecaster Soletaken" , "Tiste Andii Soletaken" etc.

First comes the race, then a title or class, then the shapeshifting ability, and lastly we get to know which is their second form by obverving their fur if they are Lmass.So if we talk about 'Eleint Soletakens' then we are refering to pureblooded dragons which have the ability to shapeshift to a second form.Although I believe there is only ONE prooven Eleint Soletaken (Oral Ethil) I do understand though that when people speak of Eleint Soletaken in this thread and others, arent talking about pureblooded dragons with this ability, but more about characters of races other than dragonic with the ability to veer into a dragonic form.

These things are different though, aren't they? Is my train of thoughts wrong?


EDIT: Just to clarify things a bit more, the people I am refering to are some of my friends that say 'eleint soletaken' when they are talking about someone like Korlat for example or Silchas Ruin... and because the same thing is done in http://encyclopediam...orks.com/Eleint where Korlat for example is listed as a Soletaken Tiste Andii which basically means they have the ability to shapeshift into a Tiste Andii when in fact its the opposite.


And I don't understand why people believe Oral Ethil is a T'lan.

T'iam is an Eleint. (correct/false) Correct, the mother of all dragons.
Oral Ethil is T'iams daughter. (correct/false) Sort of correct, but we are not sure how that worked. Apparently she was the first soletaken, which means she somehow negotiated a way to get the ability from Tiam without killing her. I still get confused here.
Oral Ethil is an Eleint as well. (correct/false) Eleint is the Tiste Andii word for Dragon.
Oral Ethil was the first Soletaken by choosing to shift into the body of a Lmass woman. (correct/false) False, she was a T'lan Imass (or maybe actually just an Imass) that found a way to become soletaken.
Oral Ethil was the mother of Bonecasters teaching them the ability to become 'Soletakens' (ie veer into a different form). (correct/false). As stated she is mentioned to be the first soletaken.
Somehow other races gained the ability to become Soletakens, mainly through a process that has to do with true dragon blood being absorbed by their body. (correct/false) Or by sheboinking Tiam apparently, or passed on from their parents.

So, by this, we can safely say that Oral Ethil is in fact an Eleint Soletaken Bonecaster T'lann Lmass (meaning a trueblooded dragon with the ability to veer into a T'lan Lmass, though for her own reasons she is now more fond of her Lmass form that spends her entire life into it, only changing back to her true form when the need arises - the fact that she is undead in her true form as well is connected with the Tellan Ritual, after all she created it so she suffers from it as well).

Its very very early in the morning here, and I've been unable to sleep, so if you somehow come up with a reasonable arguement as to how my string of thoughts is flawed I apologise beforehand :D


First of all, her name is Olar Ethil...but reading that entire post where you call her Oral almost made me lose it laughing lol.

Second, you are wrong about the nature of soletaken. They are humans, tiste, imass that have the ability to veer into the form of some animal. Pureblood dragons don't take the form of anything else, they are just dragons. When somebody is labeled as an 'eleint soletaken' it just means they are a soletaken that can veer into the form of a dragon. It's a necessary label because Bonecasters and some humans from the First Empire and on learned to become soletaken of different beasts (Treach, Ryllandaras, Messremb, Bauchelain and Korbal Broach). In the case of Bonecasters their first name actually tells what animal they veer into. Saying Olar Ethil in the language of the Imass is actually like saying "Dragon" Ethil.

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#44 User is offline   Jorram 

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 05:58 AM

The Olar Ethil case is a bit too complicated to draw conclusions.

Remember that Osserc is also referred to as "brother of Tiam". All these supposed relationships in both ways have something to do with also with having sex with Tiam - for Osserc "did you proclaim her your sister before or after you..." ; for Olar Ethil "did you fly out of the Abyss to beget yourself".

Sooo.... if Osserc can be an elder god or a tiste liosan or whatever who became draconic soletaken (a TL Soletaken Dragon by your terminology), then indeed so can Olar Ethil, who is also consistently referred to as Elder God and not a dragon by Erikson (the whole of DoD and then the Draconic Family Tree). She wasnt an Imass, but is closely associated with the T'lan now and takes their shape. She wasn't a dragon but is also related to them. She is an Elder God.
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Posted 12 April 2010 - 02:14 PM

Note re Tiam - she is ref'd as 'Mother of Dragons', but not, iirc, 'Mother of ALL Dragons'. We know she has at least three daughters who are draconic, plus in a more general sense, all the others who drank her blood and/or sheboinged her and ended up draconic, but i don't think there is asolid reference anywhere to her being the mother or originator of the pureblood Eleint like Silanah.

Re titles, i could be wrong but i think the soletaken and racial designations are used more or less interchangeably. Plus there's an open question about whether anyone who becomes draconic soletaken still remains whatever they were before, as opposed to becoming 'more' draconic but retaining a form and elements of their original race. And there is a question of degree, by example, Silchas is routinely referred to as being more draconic than Rake, while Korlat, who is draconic herself, refers to Rake as being moreso than her. To complicate things, where someone says 'dragons' did something (nuked the Kchain cities, bound the Otti dragon, flew to war) it's not always clear whether the dragons ref'd are soletaken, pureblood, or a mixture of the two. And then of course there's Telorast and Curdle, who REALLY complicate things...

Re Olar Ethil - iirc, DoD tells us that she was an elder goddess and draconic soletaken who took the form of the Imass and linked herself to them during the Tellan Ritual. So she's not originally Imass, but she is one for all intents and purposes as of the series.

- Abyss, should also reiterate that Tiam is a skanky ho.
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#46 User is offline   Fox 

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 04:26 PM

 Abyss, on 12 April 2010 - 02:14 PM, said:

Note re Tiam - she is ref'd as 'Mother of Dragons', but not, iirc, 'Mother of ALL Dragons'. We know she has at least three daughters who are draconic, plus in a more general sense, all the others who drank her blood and/or sheboinged her and ended up draconic, but i don't think there is asolid reference anywhere to her being the mother or originator of the pureblood Eleint like Silanah.


- Abyss, should also reiterate that Tiam is a skanky ho.




I feel like the logistics of sheboinging said skanky ho Mother of Dragons must be terrifying. I mean really. Because presumably Osserc et al. couldn't turn into dragons before hand, so unless Tiam was a shapeshifter too...


...I think I've given this subject too much thought.Posted Image
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#47 User is offline   Jorram 

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 05:53 PM

 Fox, on 12 April 2010 - 04:26 PM, said:


I feel like the logistics of sheboinging said skanky ho Mother of Dragons must be terrifying. I mean really. Because presumably Osserc et al. couldn't turn into dragons before hand, so unless Tiam was a shapeshifter too...

...I think I've given this subject too much thought.Posted Image


Yeah, they kind of.. wait never mind ><
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#48 User is offline   Edrigan 

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 06:41 PM

Quote

Re Olar Ethil - iirc, DoD tells us that she was an elder goddess and draconic soletaken who took the form of the Imass and linked herself to them during the Tellan Ritual. So she's not originally Imass, but she is one for all intents and purposes as of the series.




This is what I believe as well, its just that with Mr Eriksson there's rarely an occassion where you can be 100% positive that things are how they seem.
For example, perhaps Elder Gods used to be 'normal' characters but in the process of discovering arcane secrets/magic/extraordinary abilities, they were able to attract attention from the various races of people they associated with, so people revered them and that is what caused them to ascent to Elder God status (I know its not a clear explanation, just something that might sounds reasonable).

Its just another thing with the Malazan Fantasy. Just when you think you are able to grasp a certain level of 'Badassery' which differs characters, suddenly something different steps in and messes things up. In the end I will not be surprised if Chaos personified is some bartender in Malaz city who got tired of serving old soldiers , hearing their tales, and having each and every person who steps up into leadership slaughter a proportion of the empire, but he's too bored to interfere so he just sets some things in 'motion' :D

This post has been edited by Edrigan: 12 April 2010 - 06:42 PM

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#49 User is offline   Bauchelain the Evil 

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 05:55 PM

 Edrigan, on 12 April 2010 - 06:41 PM, said:






For example, perhaps Elder Gods used to be 'normal' characters but in the process of discovering arcane secrets/magic/extraordinary abilities, they were able to attract attention from the various races of people they associated with, so people revered them and that is what caused them to ascent to Elder God status (I know its not a clear explanation, just something that might sounds reasonable).



I think that can be said for "regular" Gods. You know those that become Gods the hard way: by Ascending and then obtain worshippers. In TBH it's said that EG are basically the personification of elemental forces and as such belong to no race nor do they need a form.( the Errant seems an exception seeing how iirc it was mentioned in MT he was human before becoming a God)
My pet theory is that they have always existed but manifested on Wu only after the KCCM went away(if Kallor can be believed)
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#50 User is offline   Edrigan 

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 11:10 PM

Aside that, it will be intresting indeed to find out who that character is. Jaghut are badass already, if there is a Soletaken one and more so if he can veer into a Dragon, then he will need a new level of 'badassery' by him/her-self. Not because the character will be grossly more powerfull, but just about anything that can shift into a dragon is by definition a badass (Hope its a dragon, anything else will be bellow Jaghut status).
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#51 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 04:25 AM

Am mid reread and i think i just hit something HUGE.

Y'know the bit at UK Bantam HB p489, where Olar Ethil is ranting at Torrent and she calls herself Burn? And we've mostly been thinking she's talking out of her somewaht decomposed undead ass on that point.

I think i just figured it out...

First she says to Torrent: "Tell me, do you know what a Soletaken is? A D'ivers?"
Torrent says "No.'
"What do you know of Elder Gods?"
"Nothing."

and then Ethil loses it and does her rant, which i'm not going to type out in it's entirety but here's the good part...

"From my ancient blood ran every stream of Soletaken and D'ivers...Parts of me sleep, tormented by sickness. Others rail at the fury of summer storms... So many names, Eran'ishal, Mother to the Eres'al...Rath Evain to the Forkrul Assail. Stone Bitch to the Jaghut. I have had a face in darkness, a son in shadow, a bastard in light...Ayala Alalle who tends the Gardens of the Moon...i am Burn the Sleeping Goddess. I am scattered to the very edge of the Abyss, possessor of more faces than any other Elder."


In RCG we see Ho, a human d'ivers whose parts have separated and become independent, and also Ryllandaras, a First Empire shapeshifter who split into a soletaken jackal form AND a separate jackal d'ivers who changed form and became a wolf.

So here's my theory: Olar Ethil, Burn, and any number of others (not all Elder Gods but certainly a few) are the d'ivers bodies of a single Elder God. They've gone their own ways, taken on different aspects of power and entirely different characteristics, but at root, shapeshifting into multiple forms is WAY older than the accident that destroyed the human First Empire. This may even explain why in draconic form Olar and Tiam are twins.

I could be connecting random dots here but the links seem to make sense.


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#52 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 04:30 AM

Hmm, kind of explains why Burn is as old as the Elders but very specifically isn't called an Elder God, why Olar Ethil is called the First Soletaken (albeit incorrectly if you're right) and what the hell the double Ryllandaras marlarkey in ROTCG was about. It's an interesting theory. Might be tosh, but I like it.
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#53 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 04:32 AM

If taken to be true, and I don't throw tomatoes in houses built on french-fries, the obvious question this theory would cause: Where's the madness?

Ho was missing distinct parts of his personality, and his three "lessers" were all deformed in distinct ways. Ryllandaras solved the dilemna by forming one mad enfused sole-taken to clear the rest. Now, nothing states that Elder Gods would be forced to face this same balance, but nothing says they wouldn't have to either. So, which form is mad? Or has it been diluted amongst all forms?

Finally, who would be the balance to such a being?
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Posted 18 April 2010 - 07:15 AM

And what if is Olar Ethil anthropomorfized Goddess of Mothership? Big Momma? Part  So many names, Eran'ishal, Mother to the Eres'al...Rath Evain to the Forkrul Assail. Stone Bitch to the Jaghut. I have had a face in darkness, a son in shadow, a bastard in light...Ayala Alalle who tends the Gardens of the Moon...i am Burn the Sleeping Goddess. I am scattered to the very edge of the Abyss, possessor of more faces than any other Elder." looks like it. And cult of mothership is strong in every culture and we know like SE likes to play with real world cults and mythologies.
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Posted 18 April 2010 - 07:18 AM

Once again, if so, who is the then anthropomorphic Father?
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#56 User is offline   Eispeis 

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 09:52 AM

 H.D., on 18 April 2010 - 07:18 AM, said:

Once again, if so, who is the then anthropomorphic Father?


Is there need for on? The Andii does not have a father AFAIK.


If I also may add:
The Crazy Corollary to the MommaBurnEthil is One Hypotheses:

Burn/Olar Ethil and a host of other "mother godesses" are D'ivers forms of one single Momma entity. That momma is Mother Dark, which is why she turned away from the Andii (the timeline is not important...the timeline is not important... ttini...ttini), as she became...preoccupied with other aspects of herself.

In her speech Olar Ethil clams to be the founder of, well damn near everything:

Olar Ethil said:

Parts of me sleep, tormented by sickness. I am Burn, the planet you walk on
Others rail at the fury of summer storms... We dislike summer/heat/thawing we are Jheck/Stormriders/Jaghut
Eran'ishal, Mother to the Eres'al...
Rath Evain (Mother) to the Forkrul Assail.
Stone Bitch (Mother) to the Jaghut.
I have had a face in darkness I am Mother Dark, but have turned away
a son in shadow I am the mother of the Edur/Shake
a bastard in light I am the mother of the Liosan
Ayala Alalle who tends the Gardens of the Moon WTF?
i am Burn the Sleeping Goddess. Chorus
I am scattered to the very edge of the Abyss, I am everything that is not Chaos - i.e. I am excistence
possessor of more faces than any other Elder."

This post has been edited by Eispeis: 18 April 2010 - 09:53 AM

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#57 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 09:59 AM

 Eispeis, on 18 April 2010 - 09:52 AM, said:

 H.D., on 18 April 2010 - 07:18 AM, said:

Once again, if so, who is the then anthropomorphic Father?


Is there need for on? The Andii does not have a father AFAIK.


If I also may add:
The Crazy Corollary to the MommaBurnEthil is One Hypotheses:

Burn/Olar Ethil and a host of other "mother godesses" are D'ivers forms of one single Momma entity. That momma is Mother Dark, which is why she turned away from the Andii (the timeline is not important...the timeline is not important... ttini...ttini), as she became...preoccupied with other aspects of herself.

In her speech Olar Ethil clams to be the founder of, well damn near everything:

Olar Ethil said:

Parts of me sleep, tormented by sickness. I am Burn, the planet you walk on
Others rail at the fury of summer storms... We dislike summer/heat/thawing we are Jheck/Stormriders/Jaghut
Eran'ishal, Mother to the Eres'al...
Rath Evain (Mother) to the Forkrul Assail.
Stone Bitch (Mother) to the Jaghut.
I have had a face in darkness I am Mother Dark, but have turned away
a son in shadow I am the mother of the Edur/Shake
a bastard in light I am the mother of the Liosan
Ayala Alalle who tends the Gardens of the Moon WTF?
i am Burn the Sleeping Goddess. Chorus
I am scattered to the very edge of the Abyss, I am everything that is not Chaos - i.e. I am excistence
possessor of more faces than any other Elder."



If Olar Ethil is Mother Dark then I'll gladly admit that I have absolutely no knowledge of the series and just shut the fuck up.

Until then, theories with proof behind them will suffice.
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#58 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 10:04 AM

If you take the MD/Olar link seriously, then you would think Olar and MD would be two autonomous parts of the whole, or different manifestations of the same thing - one would not be superior to the other, as Eispeis seems to imply.

This post has been edited by MTS: 18 April 2010 - 10:05 AM

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 10:12 AM

Seriously, these theories are approaching One God territory, and that is always dangerous grounds for a fantasy series. Erikson has purposefully created a series with multiple Gods. I see no reason to begin connecting all of them for no better reason than one God claimed to be many. Even IF Olar Ethil was the embodiment of many Gods, she certainly isn't ALL of them.

Mother Dark as Olar Ethil? Despite the fact that M.D. speaks to characters in DoD and is reproduced in TtH and resets Kurald Galain into Black Coral.

I don't mind crazy theories, but I'd like them to be somewhat plausible.
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#60 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 10:22 AM

 H.D., on 18 April 2010 - 10:12 AM, said:

Seriously, these theories are approaching One God territory, and that is always dangerous grounds for a fantasy series. Erikson has purposefully created a series with multiple Gods. I see no reason to begin connecting all of them for no better reason than one God claimed to be many. Even IF Olar Ethil was the embodiment of many Gods, she certainly isn't ALL of them.

Mother Dark as Olar Ethil? Despite the fact that M.D. speaks to characters in DoD and is reproduced in TtH and resets Kurald Galain into Black Coral.

I don't mind crazy theories, but I'd like them to be somewhat plausible.

I am skeptical of the 'One-God'edness as well, however due to the symbiotic nature of the elemental forces at play, it's not drawing too long of a bow I think to make a connection, so I'm not going to throw it out based on that. The problem I think, is that Eispeis draws too much out of two lines.

'I have had a face in darkness'. That does not imply that Olar is MD, not by a long shot. It's very much open to interpretation, but I don't think it means she is MD. All it means is she was involved with Darkness at one point. Draconus could be said to have a face in darkness, and so could Nightchill (although that's less clear).

'I have had a son in Shadow, a bastard in light.' If, as Eispeis claims, she was the mother of the Edur, Shake and Liosan (a claim that we can't even reliably pin on MD herself), I would imagine the noun there would be plural, not singular. She definitely hasn't mothered either race, only had sons in either. The absolute best that could be taken from that is that she is Osserc's and an Edur/Shake's (Scabandari's?) mother, which is a bold claim again.
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Si hoc adfixum in obice legere potes, et liberaliter educatus et nimis propinquus ades.
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