[Abyss]

 lobo the wolfman, on 30 April 2010 - 08:42 AM, said:

I could be wrong but didn't ST's hold on the First Throne weaken after he became a god, even with Monok Ochem re powering the Throne? It was always weak at the start as he could only control the Kron Clan of Imass because they where the closest and even then he didn't want to push that control any further then he had to. Another point is, wasn't the birth and the reaching of maturity of Silverfox was also meant to negate the First Thrones influence?

Not quite... we do not actually know how strong Kel/ST's grasp on the First Throne really is as he's never used it 'on screen'. We know way back when he used the Kron to conquer 7C, and it's unclear whether the Throne was used to order the Aren massacre, but that's as far as it goes. The various conversations in HoC and TB about the Throne are all speculation. If in TCG ST suddenly sat down, exerted himself and suddenly every Imass the world over was at his command, i wouldn't be surprised. Well... no more so than usual when something that awesome happens in a Malaz book.

What makes you think Monok 're-powered' the throne? Supposedly only a mortal could use it and it appeared that he 'died' trying. The scene was kind of confused - Dead-Ape-Ochem is faced with Icarium, runs for it, and next we see him he's fused to the throne. Someone, possibly Trull, speculates that Iccy's shred-wind blasted him into it, but SE has deceived us before.

Silverfox can release Imass from the Tellan Ritual. We don't actually know whether someone sitting on the Throne could do that to, but the key distinction is that while (at least a long time ago) someone on the throne could command the Imass to whatever degree, they may listen to Silverfox but she doesn't seem to 'control' them

[Serebrus]

 dawnkiller, on 22 April 2010 - 02:49 PM, said:

Yeah, with you on SE not throwing Olar Ethil's rant in for no reason. That, and the fact that she is, indisputably, a goddess -- even if she's chosen mortality, which is the path of diminishment (at least if Nightchill is any indication). She's not just some whackjob Bonecaster. She's a whackjob Bonecaster who makes Elder gods nervous and engineered a ritual that stole death from an entire race. She's indisputably less than she once was (whatever that may have been), but I don't think her street cred needs validation.

 Abyss, on 22 April 2010 - 02:39 PM, said:

Curiously, in TB Cotillion commented to Edgewalker that each race had its representative draconic soletaken. I wonder if the link could be along the draconic lines as opposed to Elder God. we don't know that Burn is draconic but then again, we don't know that she isn't. Tiam however, is, as is Olar.

Hm, don't remember that, but it's an interesting thought. We know there was a Soletaken Jaghut now, which leaves us with the possibility of Soletaken FA and Soletaken KCCM. Though that last seems like it'd be slightly redundant.

Randomly, re-read parts of MT last night -- I'd forgotten the Eleint (Soletaken or otherwise) wiped out the FA city Silchas Ruin showed Kettle. Interesting that, at some point, the Eleint decided the FA had to die (and no one but Eleint were powerful enough to pull it off).

I wonder if the eleint destroying the FA city had anything to do with Kilmandaros hating the eleint with a passion?

Also, did anyone ever mention the unigendered jaghut soletaken that visited dassem and karsa during TtH? He said something about being the first master of the hounds, but it states in DoD that dassem created d'ivers to make mortals appreciate the animals and nature more. his form being the deragoth?

[Illuyankas]

That guy was Kagamandra Tulas Shorn, who was an Edur Eleint Soletaken and created the Hounds of Shadow, not the Deragoth. And Dassem Ultor and Dessimbelackis are two different people.

The idea about the Eleint destroying FA cities being the reason behind Kilmandaros' hatred of dragons is good one, though.

[onehitwunder]

Is being a soletaken elient even all that cool? It seems like there many entities out there that can pretty much destroy dragons. Raest takes 5 of them at once, icarium could kill them with a singal arrow, kallor has even killed a few. So being a jaghut/elient doesn't seem to me like it would make that jaghut a powerhouse.

[MTS]

Jaghut can create continent spanning walls of ice and even stop death. Couple that with the ability to morph into a motherfucking dragon and rain a hellstorm of shit on some walking skeletons from on high, I'd say that house has a whole lot of power. It is more than the sum of its parts.

This post has been edited by MTS: 09 May 2010 - 03:43 PM

[onehitwunder]

True a jaghut soletaken is pretty fuckin tight now that I think of it. Is there a draconic human soletaken at all?

[Illuyankas]

There's a half human, half Liosan one, at least.

[Serebrus]

 Illuyankas, on 09 May 2010 - 02:21 PM, said:

That guy was Kagamandra Tulas Shorn, who was an Edur Eleint Soletaken and created the Hounds of Shadow, not the Deragoth. And Dassem Ultor and Dessimbelackis are two different people.

The idea about the Eleint destroying FA cities being the reason behind Kilmandaros' hatred of dragons is good one, though.

ah ok. I was thinking that it was a jaghut. I thought dassem ultor was dessimbelackis though, but it's been awhile since I've read some of the earlier books so I must be mistaken. I know that dassem had some kind of affinity with the hounds though, some ancient attachment.

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Serebrus, on 09 May 2010 - 04:37 PM, said:

 Illuyankas, on 09 May 2010 - 02:21 PM, said:

That guy was Kagamandra Tulas Shorn, who was an Edur Eleint Soletaken and created the Hounds of Shadow, not the Deragoth. And Dassem Ultor and Dessimbelackis are two different people.

The idea about the Eleint destroying FA cities being the reason behind Kilmandaros' hatred of dragons is good one, though.

ah ok. I was thinking that it was a jaghut. I thought dassem ultor was dessimbelackis though, but it's been awhile since I've read some of the earlier books so I must be mistaken. I know that dassem had some kind of affinity with the hounds though, some ancient attachment.

yes, that part in TtH is a bit confusing. how do the hounds of shadow know dassem? is it just from being so close with kellenved and dancer? did they all meet up after their 'deaths' and introduce their new pets?

[Abyss]

 onehitwunder, on 09 May 2010 - 04:08 PM, said:

True a jaghut soletaken is pretty fuckin tight now that I think of it. Is there a draconic human soletaken at all?

 Illuyankas, on 09 May 2010 - 04:12 PM, said:

There's a half human, half Liosan one, at least.

Rud/Ryadd is actually quite a bit more than that. His Mom Menandore is the daughter to Elder God/draconic Tiam and Osserc, also draconic and likely an Elder God who is apparently the son of the creator of the universe, meaning Ryadd is basically one generation removed from Mommy D and Daddy L. His father Udinass was human but was carrying a Wyval inside him when they sheboinged, meaning, to whatever degree, Ryadd is actually, more or less, more draconic than most of the other soletaken eleint who just banged and/or drank from Tiam at some point.

 Sinisdar Toste, on 09 May 2010 - 07:20 PM, said:

 Serebrus, on 09 May 2010 - 04:37 PM, said:

 Illuyankas, on 09 May 2010 - 02:21 PM, said:

That guy was Kagamandra Tulas Shorn, who was an Edur Eleint Soletaken and created the Hounds of Shadow, not the Deragoth. And Dassem Ultor and Dessimbelackis are two different people.

The idea about the Eleint destroying FA cities being the reason behind Kilmandaros' hatred of dragons is good one, though.

ah ok. I was thinking that it was a jaghut. I thought dassem ultor was dessimbelackis though, but it's been awhile since I've read some of the earlier books so I must be mistaken. I know that dassem had some kind of affinity with the hounds though, some ancient attachment.

yes, that part in TtH is a bit confusing. how do the hounds of shadow know dassem? is it just from being so close with kellenved and dancer? did they all meet up after their 'deaths' and introduce their new pets?

I suspect that's exactly it.

- Abyss, will take this opportunity to note that Tiam is a skanky ho.

[Silk]

after all Dasem went on a long walk so to speak between his assasination and his re-apearance....

[Serebrus]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 09 May 2010 - 07:20 PM, said:

 Serebrus, on 09 May 2010 - 04:37 PM, said:

 Illuyankas, on 09 May 2010 - 02:21 PM, said:

That guy was Kagamandra Tulas Shorn, who was an Edur Eleint Soletaken and created the Hounds of Shadow, not the Deragoth. And Dassem Ultor and Dessimbelackis are two different people.

The idea about the Eleint destroying FA cities being the reason behind Kilmandaros' hatred of dragons is good one, though.

ah ok. I was thinking that it was a jaghut. I thought dassem ultor was dessimbelackis though, but it's been awhile since I've read some of the earlier books so I must be mistaken. I know that dassem had some kind of affinity with the hounds though, some ancient attachment.

yes, that part in TtH is a bit confusing. how do the hounds of shadow know dassem? is it just from being so close with kellenved and dancer? did they all meet up after their 'deaths' and introduce their new pets?

That's what made me think we was dessembelackis as well. But like I said it's been awhile.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 09 May 2010 - 07:20 PM, said:

 Serebrus, on 09 May 2010 - 04:37 PM, said:

 Illuyankas, on 09 May 2010 - 02:21 PM, said:

That guy was Kagamandra Tulas Shorn, who was an Edur Eleint Soletaken and created the Hounds of Shadow, not the Deragoth. And Dassem Ultor and Dessimbelackis are two different people.

The idea about the Eleint destroying FA cities being the reason behind Kilmandaros' hatred of dragons is good one, though.

ah ok. I was thinking that it was a jaghut. I thought dassem ultor was dessimbelackis though, but it's been awhile since I've read some of the earlier books so I must be mistaken. I know that dassem had some kind of affinity with the hounds though, some ancient attachment.

yes, that part in TtH is a bit confusing. how do the hounds of shadow know dassem? is it just from being so close with kellenved and dancer? did they all meet up after their 'deaths' and introduce their new pets?

I was confused abut that too, especially since ST and Cots don't think that the hounds would defend them against Dassem. The only theory I've been able to come up with is that Dassem guarded the throne of shadow for awhile after Andarist died and before ST sent demons there to protect it.

[onehitwunder]

I don't think the hounds would let cot and ST die just because dassem defended the throne for a little bit.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i don't think the hounds are really that loyal to ST and Cotillion. kagamandra says that they represent all that cannot be tamed, and the realm of shadow has had multiple rulers who clearly weren't defended to the death by the hounds, because the hounds are still around and those rulers aren't

[worry]

Indeed, the hounds, like Edgewalker, serve Shadow above all else. That's directly addressed in RotCG, but I think it's covered enough in other books to piece together more or less.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 worrywort, on 11 May 2010 - 05:00 AM, said:

Indeed, the hounds, like Edgewalker, serve Shadow above all else. That's directly addressed in RotCG, but I think it's covered enough in other books to piece together more or less.

Agreed, but that doesn't give us any reason as to why they apparently have some connection with Dassem that is stronger than ST and Cots.

[worry]

True enough. Maybe they just like him more? Shadowthrone is a bit abrasive.

[onehitwunder]

Its weird that they are all that cannot be tamed but all the hounds we have seen have masters, besides the deragoth whom are dissemblackis I think. Also this is off topic but where did the deragoth go after rockin poliel?

[Abyss]

 onehitwunder, on 12 May 2010 - 06:18 PM, said:

Its weird that they are all that cannot be tamed but all the hounds we have seen have masters, besides the deragoth whom are dissemblackis I think. Also this is off topic but where did the deragoth go after rockin poliel?

Sure the HoS serve ST and Cotillion so far as we know, and the HoL were sent to Darujhistan by someone, but just because they cannot be tamed doesn't mean they cannot be controlled. The difference is that untamed controlled beasts might eat the 'master''s face off.

We're told somewhere that Dessimbelackis' soul is divided into the remaining Deragoth, but at least in HoC it appeared that the two deragoth were following someone's orders when they went to the Whirlwind camp. In TB they appeared to be acting on their own. They also aren't the classic version of d'ivers, because it appears they are seven (then five) separate entities with one additional soul divided up between them, as opposed to say Dejim (seven souls, one body, seven shadow bodies), the typical d'ivers (one mind, multiple bodies), Ho (one soul, four bodies, three of which are linked), Ryllandaras (classic d'ivers and a completely separate soletaken body that apprently doesn't shapeshift), and whatever the Elder Gods might be...

In ThH we're given a Hound of Shadow's pov and they think about the Deragoth who are still pursuing them, so they're still out there somewhere.

- Abyss, would hate to see the Deragoth sized pooper-scooper.