[Bauchelain the Evil]

I'm sure but the point is that Raest had the 90% of his power in a acorn yet still pulverized the dragons and made Rake piss himself( but I discount that as a GotMism).

And yes I think that the fact that it was Hood that sat on the Throne of Ice and led the Jaghut against Death make him the big man among the Jaghut and not Raest(or Gothos ). Although it could simply be that Hood had more of the leader personality than Raest the psycopath or Gothos the asocial)

[Morgoth]

Or that Gothos already at that point had lost interest.

[Ulrik]

Probably in age of hunting young Toblakai girls. Frakin old pervert...

[Abyss]

Sure, but we have no reason to think any of them are draconic.

Unless someone did that 'deny his draconic blood' thing Andarist ref'd back in HoC. Still, i can't see Raest doing that. Hood, maybe, Gothos, maybe.

- Abyss, ...bets it was Gothos after a sheboing with Tiam, because that dude will shag ANYTHING...

[Aptorian]

... and we all know Tiam is the village bicycle.

[Use Of Weapons]

Is it just me then, who on reading that line in the books for the first time, thought, 'What, someone whose Soletaken form is that of a Jaghut?' Which is a completely nonsensical thing to think, given that the context was Eleint Soletaken, but still. It's what I thought.

[Abyss]

jitsukerr, on 29 January 2010 - 04:26 PM, said:

Is it just me then, who on reading that line in the books for the first time, thought, 'What, someone whose Soletaken form is that of a Jaghut?' Which is a completely nonsensical thing to think, given that the context was Eleint Soletaken, but still. It's what I thought.

Considering Moby was a massive demon with a Bhokarala soletaken form , and Telorast and Curdle were... umm... two dragons with a single Tiste Andii soletaken form... or something like that... that's not as far out as it seems.

Tho when it comes to draconic soletaken in particular, there seems to have to be a direct link to draconic blood for it to happen, whereas it seems unlikely that a dragon drinking Jaghut blood becomes a soletaken Jaghut.

- Abyss, ...notes Moby totally got ripped off in the veered form department...

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I think both those cases are special.

Dessimbelackis did one of his crazy, obscure, Chaotic rituals to turn Curdle and Telorast in a Tiste Andii. As for Moby, I always thought it was more of a magical geas than choice. Just like with Withal's Nachts

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 29 January 2010 - 05:12 PM

[Powder]

WILD SPECULATION AND CONSPIRACY THEORY FOLLOWING CAPS LOCK!

How's this for foreshadowing-- Gothos is dragon soletaken BEFORE shagging some TTT and spawning Icarium. In the last book we see Iccy piloting a GIANT ROCK DRAGON. In the last book we are going to see him as a GIANT DRAGON WHO ROCKS. KCCM are the first children of dragons, Iccy can fly their piece, Iccy is a dragon. Gothos also had a slave in SD making azaths. How else could he have a slave there than he put him there? He had access to the warren, rediculously powerful beings therein, whos to say he didn't sex tiam in payment for letting his little azath builder stay?

WILD SPECULATION HAS CEASED

Powder

[D'rek]

Morgoth, on 20 January 2010 - 11:01 AM, said:

Tiss a good point. Raest might be the most powerful individual we've come across (perhaps apart from Icarium)... Still I'd imagine the Jaghut ruler of the Ice Hold whom then ascended/was promoted sideways to become lord of death also should be in the upper echelons.

Raest only refers to Hood as the Death-Wanderer, though, which may indicate that before Raest was interred Hood wasn't yet God of Death (or Ice-King either, for that matter). Might be Hood is a lot more powerful now.

Abyss, on 29 January 2010 - 05:06 PM, said:

jitsukerr, on 29 January 2010 - 04:26 PM, said:

Is it just me then, who on reading that line in the books for the first time, thought, 'What, someone whose Soletaken form is that of a Jaghut?' Which is a completely nonsensical thing to think, given that the context was Eleint Soletaken, but still. It's what I thought.

Considering Moby was a massive demon with a Bhokarala soletaken form , and Telorast and Curdle were... umm... two dragons with a single Tiste Andii soletaken form... or something like that... that's not as far out as it seems.

Tho when it comes to draconic soletaken in particular, there seems to have to be a direct link to draconic blood for it to happen, whereas it seems unlikely that a dragon drinking Jaghut blood becomes a soletaken Jaghut.

- Abyss, ...notes Moby totally got ripped off in the veered form department...

Moby was bound into a bhokaral Mammot or Baruk - apparently bhokaral are great "vessels" for housing your domestic demons. Baruk wrote a whole treatise about it.

[Urizen]

D, on 29 January 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 20 January 2010 - 11:01 AM, said:

Tiss a good point. Raest might be the most powerful individual we've come across (perhaps apart from Icarium)... Still I'd imagine the Jaghut ruler of the Ice Hold whom then ascended/was promoted sideways to become lord of death also should be in the upper echelons.

Raest only refers to Hood as the Death-Wanderer, though, which may indicate that before Raest was interred Hood wasn't yet God of Death (or Ice-King either, for that matter). Might be Hood is a lot more powerful now.

-

Raest might not know who and what Hood is and thu's disregarding his power. Conversely Hood might not really care enough about Raest to be bothered since death comes to everyone no matter what Raest does in his "empire".
Raest is, probably, from the time after the Jaghut society. From Raest in his PoV in GOTM we learn that he's suprised when the other Jaghut comes after him as a community, indicating that Raest is used to the solitary way of jaghut living.
Hood on the other hand sat on the Throne of Ice during the period when the Jaghut lived in society. His war on death most likely a leading cause as to what led to the disitegartion of Jaghut society.

[HoosierDaddy]

Gothos on Raest:

"He was one of my more annoying offspring." Paraphrased.

[Aptorian]

H.D., on 29 January 2010 - 10:37 PM, said:

Gothos on Raest:

"He was one of my more annoying offspring." Paraphrased.

More like "annoying relations", maybe a cousin twice removed or something.

He's probably not directly related. Also, Gothos dismissal of Raest doesn't necessarily mean that Raest isn't in Gothos league. It just means that Gothos is an arrogant bastard, a trait found to be very common in Jaghuts.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

TtH page 263:

"Raest was the name of the Tyrant we defeated. One of my more obnoxiously arrogant offspring. I did not mourn his fall. In any case, unlike Raest, I was never the strutting kind. It is a sign of weakness to shine blinding light with one's own power. Pathetic diffidence. A need that undermines. I was more...secure."

Personally, I think Raest was a direct offspring of Gothos, and definitely could have been stronger. But it's impossible to tell either way.

[Aptorian]

Okay he was a child of Gothos then, my bad. But yeah, no reason to believe that Gothos is stronger than Raest.

[foolio]

Quote

just caught this on the reread...
DoD, UK hb, p72, Udinaas is recalling his recent chat with Silchas about the nature of the elient. Silch was bemoaning the nasty nature of draconic soletaken...

"Rare the blood-fouled who managed to overcome that innate megalomania. 'Ah, Udinaas,' Silchas Ruin had said, 'My brother perhaps, Anomander. Osserc, maybe, maybe not. There was a Bonecaster, once... and a soletaken Jaghut..."

so am I to assume that Silchas is just wrong about the megalomania? We know of Orfantal and his sister, Korlat, among others that are extremely loyal followers of anomander. Not only do they follow anomander but they dont chafe at each others company either. Or are these just inaccuracies in the books? Also we are given hints that Nimander and company are all Soletaken Eleint but the group has no problem following nimander...

[Fox]

foolio, on 09 February 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

Quote

just caught this on the reread...
DoD, UK hb, p72, Udinaas is recalling his recent chat with Silchas about the nature of the elient. Silch was bemoaning the nasty nature of draconic soletaken...

"Rare the blood-fouled who managed to overcome that innate megalomania. 'Ah, Udinaas,' Silchas Ruin had said, 'My brother perhaps, Anomander. Osserc, maybe, maybe not. There was a Bonecaster, once... and a soletaken Jaghut..."

so am I to assume that Silchas is just wrong about the megalomania? We know of Orfantal and his sister, Korlat, among others that are extremely loyal followers of anomander. Not only do they follow anomander but they dont chafe at each others company either. Or are these just inaccuracies in the books? Also we are given hints that Nimander and company are all Soletaken Eleint but the group has no problem following nimander...

Maybe the ennui of the Andii counters the megalomania?

[Sinisdar Toste]

ennui, the successive generations with ever less of tiam's blood and the fact that silchas might not know of korlat and orfantal, nimander and the rest. he was azathed quite soon after leaving KG and has been out of the loop for a long time

[Abyss]

Tho Korlat, Orfie and co drank directly from Tiam, so technically they are first gen draconic.

Korlat's a special case via her loyalty to Rake. Presumably this applies to Orfantal and the other two as well, tho we don't know the history. They could have been absolute asshats to each other for a few millenia.

We do know that all of Tiam's daughters were less than cooperative, and similarly Envy and Spite who were descended from one of them.

- Abyss, will never call a family member 'dragon-lady' again.

[anothevilbadguy]

foolio, on 09 February 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

Quote

just caught this on the reread...
DoD, UK hb, p72, Udinaas is recalling his recent chat with Silchas about the nature of the elient. Silch was bemoaning the nasty nature of draconic soletaken...

"Rare the blood-fouled who managed to overcome that innate megalomania. 'Ah, Udinaas,' Silchas Ruin had said, 'My brother perhaps, Anomander. Osserc, maybe, maybe not. There was a Bonecaster, once... and a soletaken Jaghut..."

so am I to assume that Silchas is just wrong about the megalomania? We know of Orfantal and his sister, Korlat, among others that are extremely loyal followers of anomander. Not only do they follow anomander but they dont chafe at each others company either. Or are these just inaccuracies in the books? Also we are given hints that Nimander and company are all Soletaken Eleint but the group has no problem following nimander...

I don't think he is necessarily wrong. He mentions that some lesser draconic soletaken with 'thinner blood' also managed to control the megalomania. So, that would seem to fit those soletaken Andii following Rake.
It also seems people are misinterpreting the quote, he doesn't say there is only one soletaken Jaghut, he just says only one had control over it. So, it is perceivable that all three popular choices can veer. I mean I don't think it can be said Raest managed to turn away from megalomania, and it is suggested that Gothos had wilder days in his 'youth'.