[Fist Gamet]

Abyss, on 14 September 2009 - 05:56 PM, said:

Fist Gamet, on 14 September 2009 - 02:35 PM, said:

...One last thing bugging me...why, having crossed half the world in the Perish ships, did Tavore not have a fleet put together in Letheras and just sail to Kolanse? Or at least sail closer?
...

Plus the Letherii were Malazan business with the Edur. The Perish were part of the war against the CG, but strictly speaking Leth was a Malazan punitive expedition, even tho the CG was behind the whole thing and Tavore was probably aware of that.

...

Yes, but after the Lether invasion. With Tehol on the throne and Mael there as his buddy, would it not have made more sense to sail to Kolanse, or, as I said, somewhere closer. I would imagine that the Perish fleet could have unloaded and returned for the Malazans in less time than it took for the BH's to get there on foot. I guess I want it to make sense to me for it to have all happened the way it did, because if the plot doesn't make sense then credibility is called into question. That's not something I ever thought would occur to me with SE, and I guess the whole ship-burning (iirc) after the Malazan landing was meant to address that issue.
I know I shouldn't have doubts but it kept springing into my mind throughout DoD.

[amphibian]

Fist Gamet, on 14 September 2009 - 08:23 PM, said:

Yes, but after the Lether invasion. With Tehol on the throne and Mael there as his buddy, would it not have made more sense to sail to Kolanse, or, as I said, somewhere closer. I would imagine that the Perish fleet could have unloaded and returned for the Malazans in less time than it took for the BH's to get there on foot.

The Bonehunters do not know Bugg is Mael. They know he's a Ceda of unusual power, but anyone harboring suspicions otherwise has thus far chosen to keep their mouths shut.

It makes no sense to leave the Perish alone in a potentially extremely hostile environment that is not only full of FA, but also the resting place of Kaminsod's heart. They'd get wiped out and when the Bonehunters get back over there with the ship, they'd probably get wiped out too. Timing - in terms of the simultaneous arrival of the allies - is crucial.

Does anyone recall someone ever magicking up a boat? The most purely "creative" magic I can remember is Envy serving dinner and possibly Iskaral Pust's mule making camp.

[Illuyankas]

Quick knows, Tavore almost certainly does too. They must have either not thought he'd help them to that extent or decided they didn't need his assistance.

[HoosierDaddy]

Or they don't trust any of the gods. Not surprising after that reading is it?

[ritchiediaz]

Intersting points Abyss - I'm just finishing an immediate re-read of DoD and as someone who had quite a few issuess with TTH, DoD is up there as one of my favourites in the series.

Not only was DoD great in and of itself, but it has laid a few of my issues with TTH to rest as well.

Agree with most of the points and moments mentioned already with a few others:-

UNEXPECTED SADNESS:-
Silchas bowed in grief upon finding out Anomanders sacrifice - far more poignant after he had recalled when they were happy fighting back to back.

BARGHAST / TOOL / HETAN:-
Although this is grim reading, it really makes a LOT more sense on a re-read; Tool has already gone through many changes - he has many more to go I reckon, and finding his son and step-daughters are still alive is going to be a key plotline I think.

OLAR ETHIL:-
A paradox wrapped in an enigma shrouded in mystery. One of her exchanges with Torrent really gave me pause tho:-

Quote

'No! I have no choice in this - none! You mortals are such fools - you just don't see it, you don't see anything!'
'What am I supposed to see?' Torrent shouted back.
'I am trying to save your pathetic lives! All of you!'

Now, up until that exchange I've taken everything Olar Ethil has said with a large pinch of salt - but that exchange rings true to me, or at least she believes what she says. Much to be revealed on her yet I think.

INQUISITORS / FORKRUL ASSAIL:-
It's my theory that the Inquisitors and the FA in Kolanse are somehow DIFFERENT to other FA, possibly corrupted - one thing I noticed was the names; up until the Inquisitors we have only seen FA with 'peaceful' names - Calm, Serenity, Repose; contrast this to the Inquisitors - Sever, Scorn & Rail. I don't think this is coincidence, and I wonder exactly what the Inquisitors really are and how they are tied up with the CG.

OFFHAND WTF QUOTE THAT GOT ME THINKING:-
Silchas Ruin prior to speaking to Udinaas mutters 'She will be Queen,' then he changes topic when Udinaas asks who? Is it Sandalath? Twilight? Hmmm, got me wondering what Silchas was thinking. I really can't come up with a satisfactory answer.

OUT OF HIS ONE-EYED DEPTH:-
Seeing the Errant get continually bloodied and out-played was great stuff, really has me looking forward to exactly how his arc is going to play out.

Anyway, a ton more things to ponder, and so many off-hand goodies (Kaminsod, Korabas, undead comedy Jaghut)

Should finish the re-read later tonight, then it's back to GOTM again...

[Abyss]

HoosierDaddy, on 14 September 2009 - 09:12 PM, said:

Or they don't trust any of the gods. Not surprising after that reading is it?

Which may be the point of keeping a distance from the Perish, who are, after all, a cult fiercely dedicated to two gods most likely to oppose any plan that doesn't involve chaining or killing the CG.

- Abyss, cult of personality figure.

[Pig Iron]

"INQUISITORS / FORKRUL ASSAIL:-
It's my theory that the Inquisitors and the FA in Kolanse are somehow DIFFERENT to other FA, possibly corrupted - one thing I noticed was the names; up until the Inquisitors we have only seen FA with 'peaceful' names - Calm, Serenity, Repose; contrast this to the Inquisitors - Sever, Scorn & Rail. I don't think this is coincidence, and I wonder exactly what the Inquisitors really are and how they are tied up with the CG."

Nice, another thing I missed. This forum is great.

[MTS]

Pig Iron, on 15 September 2009 - 11:54 AM, said:

"INQUISITORS / FORKRUL ASSAIL:-
It's my theory that the Inquisitors and the FA in Kolanse are somehow DIFFERENT to other FA, possibly corrupted - one thing I noticed was the names; up until the Inquisitors we have only seen FA with 'peaceful' names - Calm, Serenity, Repose; contrast this to the Inquisitors - Sever, Scorn & Rail. I don't think this is coincidence, and I wonder exactly what the Inquisitors really are and how they are tied up with the CG."

Nice, another thing I missed. This forum is great.

I would agree with this. It would seem that Calm and possibly Serenity too are more powerful FA than the rest. When Errastas and Setch travel the Holds, there is this curious little exchange:

Quote

[Setch]'Which one will you seek first?'
[Errastas]'Why, the one under a Jaghut stone, of course.'

This looks to imply that Calm (originally trapped under a Jaghut stone until HoC) is perhaps an Ascendant among the FA. One would not seek a regular FA, after all.

[ritchiediaz]

Mappo, on 15 September 2009 - 12:04 PM, said:

Pig Iron, on 15 September 2009 - 11:54 AM, said:

"INQUISITORS / FORKRUL ASSAIL:-
It's my theory that the Inquisitors and the FA in Kolanse are somehow DIFFERENT to other FA, possibly corrupted - one thing I noticed was the names; up until the Inquisitors we have only seen FA with 'peaceful' names - Calm, Serenity, Repose; contrast this to the Inquisitors - Sever, Scorn & Rail. I don't think this is coincidence, and I wonder exactly what the Inquisitors really are and how they are tied up with the CG."

Nice, another thing I missed. This forum is great.

I would agree with this. It would seem that Calm and possibly Serenity too are more powerful FA than the rest. When Errastas and Setch travel the Holds, there is this curious little exchange:

Quote

[Setch]'Which one will you seek first?'
[Errastas]'Why, the one under a Jaghut stone, of course.'

This looks to imply that Calm (originally trapped under a Jaghut stone until HoC) is perhaps an Ascendant among the FA. One would not seek a regular FA, after all.

Great spot - another thing I have missed even after a full re-read!
I definitley think that the Inquisitors seem to be much easier to kill than we have recently believed FA to be. Of course, it seems that Badalle is very powerful so it's hard to guage, but the fact that the Inquisitors succumbed to the hardships so readily quite surprised me, and then I noticed the name differences.

[MTS]

ritchiediaz, on 15 September 2009 - 12:12 PM, said:

Mappo, on 15 September 2009 - 12:04 PM, said:

Pig Iron, on 15 September 2009 - 11:54 AM, said:

"INQUISITORS / FORKRUL ASSAIL:-
It's my theory that the Inquisitors and the FA in Kolanse are somehow DIFFERENT to other FA, possibly corrupted - one thing I noticed was the names; up until the Inquisitors we have only seen FA with 'peaceful' names - Calm, Serenity, Repose; contrast this to the Inquisitors - Sever, Scorn & Rail. I don't think this is coincidence, and I wonder exactly what the Inquisitors really are and how they are tied up with the CG."

Nice, another thing I missed. This forum is great.

I would agree with this. It would seem that Calm and possibly Serenity too are more powerful FA than the rest. When Errastas and Setch travel the Holds, there is this curious little exchange:

Quote

[Setch]'Which one will you seek first?'
[Errastas]'Why, the one under a Jaghut stone, of course.'

This looks to imply that Calm (originally trapped under a Jaghut stone until HoC) is perhaps an Ascendant among the FA. One would not seek a regular FA, after all.

Great spot - another thing I have missed even after a full re-read!
I definitley think that the Inquisitors seem to be much easier to kill than we have recently believed FA to be. Of course, it seems that Badalle is very powerful so it's hard to guage, but the fact that the Inquisitors succumbed to the hardships so readily quite surprised me, and then I noticed the name differences.

I'm not really all that surprised. The Glass Desert was anathema to them. Not so to the children. Remember the battle with Badalle? The Adjudicator's knees touch the Glass, and she starts 'sploding at the kneecaps. So it doesn't really bother me that they succumbed to the conditions. And Repose faced a badass Watch and that one that kills Withal's horse was clubbed to death by three Venath. So I don't see a huge weakening. The fact that Eleint were needed to take out whole cities of them still stands.

[ritchiediaz]

Quote

So I don't see a huge weakening.

I was only thinking about the Inquisitors - not Repose - Yedan is obviously a bad mofo!
I forgot about the Glass being anathema to the Inquisitors, but my recollection was that their weaking had begun prior to the Glass Desert and was simply weariness and lack of food - i.e. the same as the Snake, but the children of the snake simply had more will to survive - they certainly didn't seem 'hard to kill' if they are dying from starvation and other more mundane (or human) concerns.

Either way The Inquisitors did not give me the same kind of 'awe' as Calm and Serenity, but that could be to do with your speculation that Calm isn't just any FA.

[Abyss]

Calm was trapped under an Imass stone. Unless it was Icarium who stuck her there, in which case i suppose it's a Jhag stone and we're just quibbling about semantics.

My theory runs that the Inquisitor FA were crossbred with humans and weaker, both in power and resolve, compared to Calm and Serenity who were 'pure' and stuck for a few millenia.

This raises the quation of 'Repose', whom the Watch met in Kurald Liosan. The name and attitude suggested a 'classic' FA as opposed to Inquisitor type.

It's possible that over time the FA have bred with humans and/or just become less rigid than they used to be.

- Abyss, ...has heard that said about Apt...

[ritchiediaz]

Abyss, on 15 September 2009 - 01:52 PM, said:

My theory runs that the Inquisitor FA were crossbred with humans and weaker, both in power and resolve, compared to Calm and Serenity who were 'pure' and stuck for a few millenia.

Indeed, exactly what I was thinking!

[blackzoid]

[Setch]'Which one will you seek first?'
[Errastas]'Why, the one under a Jaghut stone, of course.'

This is in refenece to which Hold/Warren that Errastas/Setch is going to use, inorder to get at Paran. It has nothing to do with finding a particular FA.

Killy and Mael confirm this, when Killy mentions it to Mael that the Hold, Setch and the Errant use was Death (Hood's warren). Which was ruled by a Jaghut and has some spatial relationship with the specific Jaghut Afterlife which is not inhabitated by Jaghut souls cos they deemed it inappropiate. I can't remember all the details, but Paran,Hedge ete discuss this in TBH.

[amphibian]

Abyss, on 15 September 2009 - 01:52 PM, said:

It's possible that over time the FA have bred with humans and/or just become less rigid than they used to be.

This re-raises some interesting questions regarding genetics and the possible unconscious use of magic to bridge those millennia of separate evolution.

We've had Jhags, half-Andiis, Thelomens etc. and they're all hybrids of races that not only evolved separately but on different worlds. And that's not even getting into the Shake-KCCM stuff. Yikes.

This is going to be a question I want Erikson to at least discourse on, if not answer.

[BridgeBurner]

ritchiediaz, on 15 September 2009 - 02:16 PM, said:

Abyss, on 15 September 2009 - 01:52 PM, said:

My theory runs that the Inquisitor FA were crossbred with humans and weaker, both in power and resolve, compared to Calm and Serenity who were 'pure' and stuck for a few millenia.

Indeed, exactly what I was thinking!

But why would they do that? I haven't yet seen a human people pure enough to be considered as worthy mating material for FA. And I really doubt there is one on WU...

This post has been edited by BridgeBurner: 15 September 2009 - 07:57 PM

[Abyss]

BridgeBurner, on 15 September 2009 - 07:56 PM, said:

ritchiediaz, on 15 September 2009 - 02:16 PM, said:

Abyss, on 15 September 2009 - 01:52 PM, said:

My theory runs that the Inquisitor FA were crossbred with humans and weaker, both in power and resolve, compared to Calm and Serenity who were 'pure' and stuck for a few millenia.

Indeed, exactly what I was thinking!

But why would they do that? I haven't yet seen a human people pure enough to be considered as worthy mating material for FA. And I really doubt there is one on WU...

That's like arguing against the existance of Barghast because the Thelomen and the Imass could not have overcome the... ahem... size differential. of how the Barghats and edur got it on with all that armour. Or how Rake and Silana... anyways, it's fantasy lit, just go with it.

- Abyss, ....seriously, the relative size logistics are just... nevermind...

[BridgeBurner]

Abyss, on 15 September 2009 - 08:00 PM, said:

BridgeBurner, on 15 September 2009 - 07:56 PM, said:

ritchiediaz, on 15 September 2009 - 02:16 PM, said:

Abyss, on 15 September 2009 - 01:52 PM, said:

My theory runs that the Inquisitor FA were crossbred with humans and weaker, both in power and resolve, compared to Calm and Serenity who were 'pure' and stuck for a few millenia.

Indeed, exactly what I was thinking!

But why would they do that? I haven't yet seen a human people pure enough to be considered as worthy mating material for FA. And I really doubt there is one on WU...

That's like arguing against the existance of Barghast because the Thelomen and the Imass could not have overcome the... ahem... size differential. of how the Barghats and edur got it on with all that armour. Or how Rake and Silana... anyways, it's fantasy lit, just go with it.

No it isn't. The Thelomen weren't killing Imass because of size differences, while the FA were very easy in killing anything not worthy, in the name of justice.

Maybe there's another cause for weaker contemporary FA showing up, like inbreeding too much over the last centuries. But I'm not buying the human-FA interbreeding.

[ritchiediaz]

Quote

But I'm not buying the human-FA interbreeding.

OK, but one of the most compelling arguments for the Inquisitors being at least somewhat human IMO is Brayderal. A chithink a fld of a half-human FA might well be able to pass as a somewhat skinny wired looking kid, do you really believe a full-blooded Forkrul Assail child could hide within a bunch of human kids and not be outed?

For me Brayderal is actually the most compelling reason for thinking that the Inquisitors are a corrupted, and weakened strain of FA.

This post has been edited by ritchiediaz: 15 September 2009 - 08:32 PM

[Morgoth]

Mappo, on 15 September 2009 - 12:04 PM, said:

Pig Iron, on 15 September 2009 - 11:54 AM, said:

"INQUISITORS / FORKRUL ASSAIL:-
It's my theory that the Inquisitors and the FA in Kolanse are somehow DIFFERENT to other FA, possibly corrupted - one thing I noticed was the names; up until the Inquisitors we have only seen FA with 'peaceful' names - Calm, Serenity, Repose; contrast this to the Inquisitors - Sever, Scorn & Rail. I don't think this is coincidence, and I wonder exactly what the Inquisitors really are and how they are tied up with the CG."

Nice, another thing I missed. This forum is great.

I would agree with this. It would seem that Calm and possibly Serenity too are more powerful FA than the rest. When Errastas and Setch travel the Holds, there is this curious little exchange:

Quote

[Setch]'Which one will you seek first?'
[Errastas]'Why, the one under a Jaghut stone, of course.'

This looks to imply that Calm (originally trapped under a Jaghut stone until HoC) is perhaps an Ascendant among the FA. One would not seek a regular FA, after all.

This would be the hold of death, ruled by the jaghut Hood. It's confirmed a little later in the book.