[Abyss]

Okay, just for the benefit of the brainz-impaired, we are spoilers in, balls out and anything goes.
DO NOT read down if you don't want to know what happens because i'm going to SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS STAB YOU IN THE BRAIN WITH AN OILY L'IZARD CHE'NITALS SPOILERS
SPOILERS...
...and you have been warned.

Look, i'm a fan. I can't pretend otherwise. I've enjoyed everything SE has ever written, and thus, i am the target this book was aimed at. No one coming in for the first time was going to 'get' this, and people with luckwarm feelings after RG or TtH weren't likely to come back around to the love they felt six or so years ago after putting down MoI for the first time.

But for those of us who have been neck-deep in the Malazan series and loving it, this book was awesome, imnsho.

Steve even says in the foreword that the novel narrative is two books long, so this book was, for the most part, pure set-up. And i'm set. i am SO set. I haven't been this well set up since that time with those brazilian exchange students...

Unlike even TtH, the entire book more or less builds to the finale. There are many 'moments', many many many, actually, but unlike TtH that had the attack on Krul's Bar by example as an action piece to break things up leading to the big finish, here there is no major ka-boom before the finish. Even the big battle about halfway in the book - the Akrynni v the Barghast, notably, don't go huge but ended in almost a whimper. And then the finish was HUGE. Again, anyone who hated the Marines storyline in RG wasn't going to love this, but if you did, damn...

SO LET'S START WITH THE ENDING...

Even if one hadn't read Pat's review, it was abundantly clear that the book was building to 'something' and that the big ugly something was not going to happen all the way over in Kolanse. Even so, a Nahruk army marching out of the Imperial warren and the Bonehunters just having the crap luck to be caught in the way was painful and logical all at once. It SEEMED random, but i don't believe it for a second. Too many Powers have been in play for that to be a coincidence. Plus it bloodied the Nah'ruk and gave Stormy and Gesler's K'chain Che'malle army (inner fan boy moment of giddyness at typing that) enough time to be ready for the battle.

But that played out so perfect. From Fiddler figuring out what was happening and shouting orders to Sort following his lead... from Keneb wasting his life to Lostara breaking out the Shadow Dance... Quick Ben taking down three entire 'Furies' on his own... with ACORNS!... Hedge's Bridgeburners (there's that giddy feeling again) attack/play dead/attack... Bottle bringing down the Nah'Ruk's own wyval on them... Koryk pulling his shit together and Smiles jumping in to save him... Tarr and Urb dragging the marines back into the fight... the Khundryl's suicidal charge... Brys throwing the Letherii army into the fight... and of course 'HAIL THE MARINES!'... it was the Bonehunters moment we've been waiting for since HoC. A human army, up against a technologically (lasers! sort of...) and numerically (i lost it when someone said 40,000 Nah'ruk) and physically (one of these guys fought Karsa) superior foe, and they do what we've seen them do best... take the hit, plant their feet and push back. I have no doubt that in TCG we're going to see a leaner, harder Bonehunters from the (probably relatively few) survivors.


BEST 'DID THAT JUST HAPPEN' MOMENT: Split between Torrent backhanding Olar Ethil (seriously... the guy just pimp smacked an Elder God) and Mother Dark responding to Withal outside the Andii city (he's bitching and the creator of the frikkin universe responds - yeah no kidding he doesn't want to move).

BEST CHARACTER I THOUGHT WAS GOING TO BE ANOTHER MHYBE BUT WASN'T: Kalyth. hands down, in the prologue i was so sure the KC Destriant was going to become one of those characters who exists to whine and complain over the agony of life... but SE turned her around... her 'dreams' and then when she stood up to the Shi'gal to protect Sag'Churok.

BEST LAY THE SMACK DOWN THAT WASN'T IN THE FINALE MOMENT: The Watch taking out a Forkrul Assail and five Liosan all by himself. Oh yeah, this guy's a badass.

BEST SE YOU'RE MESSING WITH US MOMENT: The repeated suggestions that the army 'worships' Fiddler. Yeah, Dessembrae got his start the same way...

BEST ALL HOPE IS LOST OH WAIT NO IT ISN'T MOMENT: Badalle turning around and Mokra frying four Forkrul Assail with her poetry. Y'know, since i read 'Memory Sorrow and Thorn' i've pretty much had an allergic reaction any time a fantasy author breaks out the trope of people fighting each other with song and poetry, but Badalle's entire plot line, the sheer viscious bleakness of the Snake and the way she worked with it, turned this into something that was just perfect.

BEST CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT: Dead Hedge assembling his own command of sappers out of Letherii rejects and prostitutes, recruiting his own alchemist, and calling them 'Bridgeburners'. This was so funny and just 'right' i got a big silly grin every time they appeared. In the finale, the whole "We are getting in there and supporting Quick Ben!!!" *things 'splode* "Change of plan, everyone get their heads down and play dead!!! Now THROW MUNITIONS AND RUN THE FUCK AWAY!!!" thing was awesome and funny and possibly a Monty Python reference...
As an aside, Fiddler and Hedge's interactions about Hedge being 'dead but got better' were very well done.

MOST PAINFUL STORYLINE: I want to mean that in a good way, but honestly the entire Tool/Hetan/Cafal/Whiteface thing was so... bleak. I understood the symbolism, but even so Tool sacrificing himself to save a hundred or so of his worse enemies from another political enemy was just... frustrating. And Hetan... this woman faced undead K'Chain Che'malle and sex with Kruppe in MoI and laughed... the way she retreated into mourning and was taken out by her rivals was just... weak... too weak for what was a strong, fun supporting character. And Stahl leading his Saran away from battle only to decide to attack the Malazans and then Tool and his new Imass show up and wipe them out was just the bleak end to a bleak storyline. I really wish SE had thrown in the hint that somehow the Elder Gods or the Chained God were behind all this because otherwise it was just bad things happening for the sake of showing bad things happening and i wanted it to be more than that.

BEST CHARACTER NON-DEVELOPMENT: Ublala Pung, ESPECIALLY when he was hanging out with Draconus. Despite all the panic that Drac's return seemed to spark, i could not read their interactions and not think that after everything, including wiping out two entire armies just by showing up, Draconus just isn't all that bad a guy. Who kills crazy old women with his hands.

BEST NOD TO THE FANS: Skanarow to Kindly about Gudd: "His timeline doesn't make sense.' (more or less)

BEST OKAY NOW WE HAVE THAT MYSTERY SOLVED MOMENT: The Forkrul Assail have a warren. And it's at the heart of the problem. Also, the last page or so when Hood returned.

BEST SE GIVETH AND SE TAKETH AWAY MOMENT: Telorast and Curdle are WHAT??? They can DO that???

BEST (mostly) NEW CHARACTER I WANT TO SEE MORE OF OH WAIT CRAP HE'S DEAD: Ruthan Gudd. He was stuck in an Azath. He hung out with Greymane. He planned on killing Draconus or being killed by him in the sense that either outcome was possible. He's not a Stormrider but he plays one on TV. He made the sex with Shurq. Who IS THIS GUY??? Tho his 'noble sacrifice' seemed to come out of nowhere at the end. he had inner monologue'd more than once that the army was just a place to hide out, so his sudden ride into the face of 40,000 Nahruk for the purpose of showing the army just how outmatched they were was somewhat random, as was Keneb, who had never interacted with him in any serious way before, running out to get 'sploded with him. I'm wondering if maybe will see him again. (Gudd, not Keneb who was clearly Ranalled out of existance.)

BEST UNINTENTIONAL OR WAS IT STORYLINE PARALLEL: The Shake and the Snake. Two groups walking through wastelands ending up in deserted cities of Dark and Light. Interesting. Relatedly, these were both surprisingly readable despite being basically long travelogues of angst and suffering. The Snake especially was eerie - the Chain of Dogs comparison is obvious but about the time when 4000 kids go cannibal to stay alive one gets the sense SE is up to something more complex with this one. I kept expecting the Snake to link up with one of the other storylines and tho it never did, i was totally fine with that.

BEST RETURN (AGAIN): Whiskeyjack and the Bridgeburners replacing Hood. Now THAT'S cool.

I'M CALLING IT NOW: releasing the Otataral Dragon is related to Tiam's return. You read it here first. I was right about Redmask, so doubt me at your peril.

I WANTED TO SEE MORE!!!: Gruntle and co vs the Shi'gal. Cartographer wasn't the only one who was sorry he missed out on that. See also the final 14 Jaghut vs the Nahruk.

I'LL HAVE TO GET BACK TO YOU: On the whole Icarium thing. I just finished the book at 3am and i need to digest that a bit and possibly re-read key parts.

WHY THIS BOOK WAS AMAZING: This book had it all. Think about it... Malazans, Letherii, gods elder and new, dragons, Imass dead and alive, Jaghut, Forkrul Assail, K'chain E'verything, Icarium, Mappo, the Perish, political intrigue, shapeshifters, clashing armies, a tarthenal with a huge shlong... okay, fine, we didn't see Paran and the Host or Shadowthrone and Cotillion but consider the scope of the series and just how much SE logically worked into this book and its just staggering... and THAT'S JUST TO SET UP THE FINALE. I'm still hooked.

- Abyss, ...to be continued...

[Illuyankas]

But Olar Ethil was behind Tool and the other T'lan Imass turning batshit killer crazy, and most likely the Barghast turning into utter bastards too - someone mentioned the Barghast gods screaming at them for what they were doing, so I don't think they had as much influence as we thought.

Ah well, at least we still have the Gilk.

[Bhurnae]

My brain has evaporated after that ending..............

This post has been edited by Bhurnae: 08 September 2009 - 04:23 PM

[Abyss]

...which brings me to THE GESLER AND STORMY'S ALL OUT AWESOME KCHAIN CHEMALLERIFFIC FINALE OF PURE AWESOME...

Honestly, this made such perfect sense, and played out exactly right. The moment the marines were contemplating Stormy and Gesler's dissappearance, a little part of me was jumping up and down inside screaming 'it's them! it's them!!!! they're the ones the KC are looking for!!!!'.

And the way they jumped right into it, using the Vegath, the Kell and the Shigal in ways no KC would ever think of, pretending they thought they could win even when they 'knew' they couldn't and making the KC believe it. The bit where Gesler had Stormy split the Ve'Gath, lure the Nahruk into the gap and then charges the Kell in had me cheering (quietly, as it was 3am).

Stormy seeing Gesler channeling Dassem was spot on. Gesler yelling at Stormy by his real name to focus him was perfect for these two. The sheer anger and bravado and almost nonchalant way the two of them accepted what had happened and jumped right in practically certain they were about to die

I had a good laugh when Gesler glared at four skykeeps and they exploded, and it turned out to be Iccy Uprooted flying to the rescue.

Which of course brings us the the sheer visual mindfuck of two cities in the shape of dragons dueling a dozen or so skykeeps with energy blasts... the brainz, it reels.

And then a city sized Azath rock tree busts out of the ground to seal the gate. cue jaw drop, eyes blur, brain shuts down to accept what it just read, followed by immediate reread of those pages.

... honestly, SE hits a new high with that entire sequence.

- Abyss, in awe.

[Hetan]

I guess you liked it then?

I must admit I was a little disappointed in the Tool/Hetan storyline and felt it was one of the more weaker parts of the book, but otherwise I have to agree with you - without the verbosity

[Abyss]

Hetan, on 08 September 2009 - 04:28 PM, said:

I guess you liked it then?

. it was okay.

Actually, after the holy duology of DG and MoI which will forever remain my first and second faves of this series slash ever, DoD may be #3.

Quote

I must admit I was a little disappointed in the Tool/Hetan storyline and felt it was one of the more weaker parts of the book, but otherwise I have to agree with you - without the verbosity

But it's so much more FUN with the verbousity!

The Tool/Hetan/Barghast storyline may crystallize more on the reread. Elsethread people have suggested Olar Ethil was at work there, but other than not letting Tool die i'm not sure i agree. If SE's intention was to decontruct the 'nobel savage' trope then i suppose he did, but i'm not sure how that added to the storyline. Tool's sacrifice, Hetan's weakness, Cafal's failures, the way the Barghast turned on them so utterly... it just seemed forced on some level. And then Tool coming back as this child-killing venegance machine as symbolizing the Imass... there just didn't seem to be much to redeem the storyline, unless that is still to come. I'm wondering if Tool and his new Imass may not join the Unbound.

- Abyss, ... did however really like the explanation for the second Ritual Imass.

[Wry]

As one who had lukewarm feelings about RG and certainly Toll i have to say that this book completely turned it around for me - i really can't imagine how awesome the last book is going to be

[Abyss]

Wry, on 08 September 2009 - 05:32 PM, said:

As one who had lukewarm feelings about RG and certainly Toll i have to say that this book completely turned it around for me - i really can't imagine how awesome the last book is going to be

That's nice to see. I was expecting the RG/TtH naysayers to remain in the negative zone.

- Abyss, soothsayer says sooth.

[presumingpete]

I'm on my reread now and sorry for postin my thoughts in yer thread but it kind of fits. I can kinda see how Olar ethil kinda of takes the glory for the barghast going donkey balls, but I just doubt it. throughout the whole series any mention of the barghast is as a bloodthirsty race who would be happy enough to slice off your nips for farting near them and to see them implode was totally unsurprising when faced the possibility of not getting the war time they wanted. I can't remember where it was but was there a bit that OE hints/says that she made the barghast go nuts? If so I thinks its another case of OE's I'm Burn/Elvis/Michael Jackson/Spartacus boasts.

The snake, well it just strikes me as if they are the narrators of the whole series telling it as they go, using the story as a metaphor for their struggles with the forko's. They bored the tits off me first read but they're much more interesting second time.

Another thing i've noticed, when masan sweetcheeks gilani tells sinter and kisswhere they're going to set the CG free, it doesn't read (to me anyway) that this is the main aim. I quoth

"We don't think we're off to kill the Crippled God. In fact its those chains we're after, well the Adjunct I mean. what she's after." She lifted her head and fixed on Sinter's eyes, and then Kisswhere's. "We're going to set the bastard free"

Maybe its my milk addled mind but that sounds to me as if setting the CG free is a result of taking the chains that bind him, rather than the plan being to set him loose. Theres plenty of people about who are more threatening to our survival than the Cg nowadays, Forkos, Jade dudes, Otis the Dragon so why dont we tie them up to the fence while we pop into the shop for packet of maltesers.

ummm what else. Ruthen Gudd is Iskaral Pust's mule. Oh yeah, do 'The Bridgeburners 2: Return of the Hedge' ascend when they die? or do the bonehunters? I mean it was fiddler's story of the BB's that the spiritwalker took, Fid's story isnt over yet, so does the bonehunters carry on as an extension of the BB? I doubt it but just wondering.

Oh yeah, also page 646 (UK Bantam) mael says to killy about draconus, "He holds darkness in a blade of annhiliation"
no idea what this means but its pretty ominous sounding considering the effort SE went to to describe draconus' sword. sorry for hijacking again but like some thoughts, y'know like.

[BridgeBurner]

Abyss, on 08 September 2009 - 05:12 PM, said:

Hetan, on 08 September 2009 - 04:28 PM, said:

I guess you liked it then?

Quote

I must admit I was a little disappointed in the Tool/Hetan storyline and felt it was one of the more weaker parts of the book, but otherwise I have to agree with you - without the verbosity

But it's so much more FUN with the verbousity!

The Tool/Hetan/Barghast storyline may crystallize more on the reread. Elsethread people have suggested Olar Ethil was at work there, but other than not letting Tool die i'm not sure i agree. If SE's intention was to decontruct the 'nobel savage' trope then i suppose he did, but i'm not sure how that added to the storyline. Tool's sacrifice, Hetan's weakness, Cafal's failures, the way the Barghast turned on them so utterly... it just seemed forced on some level. And then Tool coming back as this child-killing venegance machine as symbolizing the Imass... there just didn't seem to be much to redeem the storyline, unless that is still to come. I'm wondering if Tool and his new Imass may not join the Unbound.

I don't think the 'noble savage' concept should be applied to the Barghast anyway. They were bastards back in MoI already. It took Trotts to bring them into action in the first place. And Trotts died at Coral.

The only reason why we were led to believe they were 'noble' was because of Humbrall Taur was a noble person, and because we didn't get many insights in how the Barghast were thinking about Tool following him up until this book. After MoI, we saw them show up in RG, and Tool led them. But that was it, basically.

So I don't think the Barghast are acting out of character really. I don't like it, but I'm not surprised.


Would be interesting to see dead Barghast showing up at Hood's gate and meet Trotts...

[HoosierDaddy]

You can't call the Tiam thing first, 'cause I already started an entire thread about it, see? Good review. No mention of Sergeant Sunrise, who was my favorite newcomer.

[Abyss]

HoosierDaddy, on 08 September 2009 - 06:41 PM, said:

You can't call the Tiam thing first, 'cause I already started an entire thread about it, see? Good review. No mention of Sergeant Sunrise, who was my favorite newcomer.

oh fine, i'll find something else to prognosticate...

Sunrise was fun, tho he didn't ascend to the heights of Nait/Jumpy over in RCG or even Rumjugs and Lovelumps. His sacrifice to save Hedge was memorable.



HEY WHERE WAS THAT GUY SECTION:

I have to admit Krul's complete lack of presence was surprising given some of the warren related and elder god events.


- Abyss, saw the movie Krull far too many times...

[Abyss]

BridgeBurner, on 08 September 2009 - 06:17 PM, said:

...The only reason why we were led to believe they were 'noble' was because of Humbrall Taur was a noble person, and because we didn't get many insights in how the Barghast were thinking about Tool following him up until this book. After MoI, we saw them show up in RG, and Tool led them. But that was it, basically.

So I don't think the Barghast are acting out of character really. I don't like it, but I'm not surprised.

...

Good point. Their gods were supposed to have brought them back in line, but the point was made more than once that their gods were too weak or disgusted to have any influence.

Tool was no leader. He tried to lead with his heart and feelings and that just didn't work. The Baghast needed a warrior and instead they got a warrior pacifist who kept trying to bring them around to his way of thinking rather than beating them around to it. Even the Imass held Tool in awe for his skills as a warrior, not his boundless empathy for people he stuck swords in.

I did, however, really enjoy the two Kilava semi-appeareances.

- Abyss, meow.

[Cougar]

Gullstream for me.

Anyhow, I can't be arsed picking through it at the moment. But, I couldn't quite decide if Grub had assisted the Azath with (what I'm assuming was) his Driss and or Tennes warren(s) at the end. It seemed that it was indicated in the scene with Sinn in the forest he could defend himself with the earth or did I misread this?

[buddhacat]

Abyss, on 08 September 2009 - 05:12 PM, said:

... there just didn't seem to be much to redeem the storyline, unless that is still to come. I'm wondering if Tool and his new Imass may not join the Unbound.

There is surely more to come of Tool's Imass. The Tool and Toc story just went downhill fast. Tool doesn't yet know that Toc saved his kids, so I guess he is due for one more heartbreaking mindfuck.

It was a neat inversion to have the Unbound (always considered enemies) now following Masan Gilani to support the BH, who are supposed to be in it to free the CG.

[Sindriss]

Was also very surprised that Paran didn't appear, since Erratas was present. But I guess that showdown is happening in tCG

[HoosierDaddy]

Cougar, on 08 September 2009 - 07:14 PM, said:

Gullstream for me.

Anyhow, I can't be arsed picking through it at the moment. But, I couldn't quite decide if Grub had assisted the Azath with (what I'm assuming was) his Driss and or Tennes warren(s) at the end. It seemed that it was indicated in the scene with Sinn in the forest he could defend himself with the earth or did I misread this?

The earth/stone warren is D'riss, yes. And, he has become uber powerful at it, like Sindriss' Telas warren. My only thought on their now godly like powers is that they are aligned with Icarium's newly created warrens as opposed to the older ones. Otherwise, they just got massive power-ups for no apparent reason whatsoever. Sindriss incinerated 3 Skykeeps for god's sake, while Grub was making a mountain!

It would also make sense as to how they were so easily able to channel their warrens when the Wastelands were supposed to be nearly magically deadened for the most part (to the outside perspectives at least).

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 08 September 2009 - 07:24 PM

[fafner]

was not the whole tool/hetan thing something he mentioned in DHG when the warlocks summons the old spirits of the land. we the barbarians seems nice but when the leader is death massive civil wars broke out.

[Abyss]

Cougar, on 08 September 2009 - 07:14 PM, said:

Gullstream for me.

Anyhow, I can't be arsed picking through it at the moment. But, I couldn't quite decide if Grub had assisted the Azath with (what I'm assuming was) his Driss and or Tennes warren(s) at the end. It seemed that it was indicated in the scene with Sinn in the forest he could defend himself with the earth or did I misread this?

Nowthat you mention it is IS possible Grub had something to do with that, especially given they were strolling thru an Azath to the new warrens the last time we saw them.

buddhacat, on 08 September 2009 - 07:16 PM, said:

There is surely more to come of Tool's Imass. The Tool and Toc story just went downhill fast. Tool doesn't yet know that Toc saved his kids, so I guess he is due for one more heartbreaking mindfuck.

It was a neat inversion to have the Unbound (always considered enemies) now following Masan Gilani to support the BH, who are supposed to be in it to free the CG.

Don't be so sure the Unbound are on side. They could have a whole other agenda. Like taking Tavore to force the Bonehunters and allies to come to her rescue.

- Abyss, suspicious mind.

[blackzoid]

I'm going to call it now:
The Jaghut and the T'lan Imass will finally declare peace in TCG. Or at least Tool's T'lan Imass will.
Mark my words, he will definitely meet up with Hood and his 14 warriors.