[Cougar]

@HD, I'm not asking if Driss the correct warren I think we know that already, I like the idea that the warrens they are using are part of Icariums new warrens. The only part of this I'm not sure of is: weren't the new warrens aligned to the souls that Icarium apropriated at the end of RG? SO why there would be new warrens of fire or earth/rock I don't know.

The reason I felt Grubb had to be at least partly involved was because in the scene in the forest it seems that Sinn deliberately provokes Grubb into tapping his warren to defend himself, which handily for Erikson establishes he has a similar ability in earth as Sin does in fire. So why do this if he has no role to play at the end. Especially since Sinn is unleashing all kinds of awesome, is he standing there with his earthy thumb up his arse watching?

This post has been edited by Cougar: 08 September 2009 - 10:07 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

Cougar, on 08 September 2009 - 10:06 PM, said:

@HD, I'm not asking if Driss the correct warren I think we know that already, I like the idea that the warrens they are using are part of Icariums new warrens. The only part of this I'm not sure of is: weren't the new warrens aligned to the souls that Icarium apropriated at the end of RG? SO why there would be new warrens of fire or earth/rock I don't know.

The reason I felt Grubb had to be at least partly involved was because in the scene in the forest it seems that Sinn deliberately provokes Grubb into tapping his warren to defend himself, which handily for Erikson establishes he has a similar ability in earth as Sin does in fire. So why do this if he has no role to play at the end. Especially since Sinn is unleashing all kinds of awesome, is he standing there with his earthy thumb up his arse watching?

I agree, that's why I said Grub was making a stone mountain to help stabilize the Kalse Rooted Azath, while Sinn was incinerating Skykeeps.

I'd have to re-read the warrens aligned to the souls part, but people outside of Icarium (QB, Bottle, Sinn and Grub, and the Letherii mages) all notice the chaos of the older warrens thanks to Icarium's newly created ones. But, someone does note that Icarium isn't an Elder God, and creating warrens isn't necessarily within his power like it was with K'rul. So, conflicting points.

Sinn as the child of the Y'hagatan inferno and Grub as child of the earth/Chain of Dogs march accross Seven Cities could be an alternate explanation and be completely separated from Icarium's warrens.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 08 September 2009 - 10:23 PM

[lorddarkflare]

Abyss, on 08 September 2009 - 05:12 PM, said:

Hetan, on 08 September 2009 - 04:28 PM, said:

I guess you liked it then?

. it was okay.

Actually, after the holy duology of DG and MoI which will forever remain my first and second faves of this series slash ever, DoD may be #3.

Quote

I must admit I was a little disappointed in the Tool/Hetan storyline and felt it was one of the more weaker parts of the book, but otherwise I have to agree with you - without the verbosity

But it's so much more FUN with the verbousity!

The Tool/Hetan/Barghast storyline may crystallize more on the reread. Elsethread people have suggested Olar Ethil was at work there, but other than not letting Tool die i'm not sure i agree. If SE's intention was to decontruct the 'nobel savage' trope then i suppose he did, but i'm not sure how that added to the storyline. Tool's sacrifice, Hetan's weakness, Cafal's failures, the way the Barghast turned on them so utterly... it just seemed forced on some level. And then Tool coming back as this child-killing venegance machine as symbolizing the Imass... there just didn't seem to be much to redeem the storyline, unless that is still to come. I'm wondering if Tool and his new Imass may not join the Unbound.

- Abyss, ... did however really like the explanation for the second Ritual Imass.

Perhaps as you say, a reread may haelp strenghten the storyline, but so far, it feels to damn pointless and unnecessary(not like Trull, there was purpose in that).

The one good thing that came of this was Toc and Tool. Glad to see that the happy reunion that we were all hoping for has not come to pass.

Lastly, Tool is quite possible one of the worst 'good' leaders that we have seen thus far. Tavore(She is brilliant, has access to power and info, but...) is the second. The sheer incompetence of these two is astounding.

[amphibian]

lorddarkflare, on 09 September 2009 - 02:32 AM, said:

Lastly, Tool is quite possible one of the worst 'good' leaders that we have seen thus far. Tavore(She is brilliant, has access to power and info, but...) is the second. The sheer incompetence of these two is astounding.

Look at Tavore's moves: She became Adjunct to save her life (as well as further her ambitions), carefully arranged a risky yet plausible plan to save Felisin, put down the Whirlwind rebellion, allied with the Khundryl, didn't lose her entire army at Y'Ghatan, avoided the plague that killed millions, survived Malaz City with very few losses, allied with the Perish, send the Edur packing and in doing that, landed the Bonehunters precisely where they'd be close to where they'd be most useful - in Kolanse.

She's been amazing so far, and that's all the more infuriating to me because we do not know quite how she's able to come out on top of all this chaos so often. Being a superb tactician and the preeminent Kellanved and Dancer scholar doesn't mean that she can anticipate all this, does it? She gotta have some kind of mage powers.

Tool is an interesting case. Humbrell Taur fell overboard during the voyage to Letherii. He assumed leadership after that and landed on the shore with something like 150,000 people under his rule. It is incredibly hard to sustain a group of that size in a land you do not really know, so I think the fragmenting of the Barghast was a tactically sound decision. He had kids, which he took great care of, he did right by the White Face and he mourned Toc while the White Face destroyed Toc's killers. Nobody could outgeneral Tool or beat him in a fight amongst the Barghast. Nobody had his force of will and recognizance of what was the right thing to do.

The only spot Tool fell short in was having the next "thing to do" lined up after landing. He knew the tribes were going after the wrong enemy and sacrificed himself to save 100 plus warriors from total annihilation. Why he didn't just run away and let himself be captured - I don't know, perhaps Olar Ethil was messing with his mind there in subtle ways. But he did end up causing quite a few Barghast to wonder about the rightness of their current conflict. If Tavore had managed to tell Tool to go to Kolanse, I think he'd have done that spectacularly, but then... we wouldn't have much of a story with all the "good guy" armies moving unscathed to crush the "bad guys".

One thing I'd like to point out: Coltaine was an incredible leader and won his campaign - but he died. Dujek and Whiskeyjack died. Hood died. Anomander Rake died. Tavore's dealt with forces on the level of what the previous leaders dealt with and the difference is that she's still alive. Presence, and continued presence, counts for something.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 09 September 2009 - 03:29 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

I think that if we were going to receive a Tavore POV it would have happened already. Therefore, we must take what we know and go from there. She was receiving advice from an Eres'al aided T'amber up until the end of The Bonehunters. She goes off to Letheras on the advice she was given from T'amber (she knew to find Withal). It's quite possible they had everything planned to the march to Kolanse. But, then T'amber died, and the Eres'al stopped influencing things. The Eres'al knew that Tavore needed to return prior to the events of Return of the Crimson Guard.

It's entirely possible that with the loss of T'amber and the Eres'al influence on her, Tavore now is simply going through with the plan. It would make sense as to why she called for a reading right before the march towards Kolanse, because she had no idea if anything had changed, and it obviously had. She walked blindly into the Nah'ruk, and only Mael's dagger is going to save some remnant of the Bonehunters from total annihilation at the hands of the Nah'ruk.

[amphibian]

HoosierDaddy, on 09 September 2009 - 03:44 AM, said:

Tavore now is simply going through with the plan.

She's somehow following and even anticipating and changing Shadowthrone and Cotillon's plan. Without talking to them, supposedly. This to me is Kruppe-level intellect combined with some kind of magic future-predicting powers here. Definitely a RAFO type question-answer from Erkison.

[HoosierDaddy]

amphibian, on 09 September 2009 - 05:06 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 09 September 2009 - 03:44 AM, said:

Tavore now is simply going through with the plan.

She's somehow following and even anticipating and changing Shadowthrone and Cotillon's plan. Without talking to them, supposedly. This to me is Kruppe-level intellect combined with some kind of magic future-predicting powers here. Definitely a RAFO type question-answer from Erkison.

Possibly. More probable is that she realized their plan a while back, and has been putting he pieces together since then. The screw up in the Wastelands negates any future predicting magical powers, as both the Khundryl and Perish recognize the dire straits the Bonehunters are in when she doesn't. Her increasing distress is, to me, a sign of her lack of foresight into what is happening in DoD, and I put there square at the feet of the loss of T'amber.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 09 September 2009 - 05:16 AM

[lorddarkflare]

amphibian, on 09 September 2009 - 03:26 AM, said:

lorddarkflare, on 09 September 2009 - 02:32 AM, said:

Lastly, Tool is quite possible one of the worst 'good' leaders that we have seen thus far. Tavore(She is brilliant, has access to power and info, but...) is the second. The sheer incompetence of these two is astounding.

Look at Tavore's moves: She became Adjunct to save her life (as well as further her ambitions), carefully arranged a risky yet plausible plan to save Felisin, put down the Whirlwind rebellion, allied with the Khundryl, didn't lose her entire army at Y'Ghatan, avoided the plague that killed millions, survived Malaz City with very few losses, allied with the Perish, send the Edur packing and in doing that, landed the Bonehunters precisely where they'd be close to where they'd be most useful - in Kolanse.

She's been amazing so far, and that's all the more infuriating to me because we do not know quite how she's able to come out on top of all this chaos so often. Being a superb tactician and the preeminent Kellanved and Dancer scholar doesn't mean that she can anticipate all this, does it? She gotta have some kind of mage powers.

Tool is an interesting case. Humbrell Taur fell overboard during the voyage to Letherii. He assumed leadership after that and landed on the shore with something like 150,000 people under his rule. It is incredibly hard to sustain a group of that size in a land you do not really know, so I think the fragmenting of the Barghast was a tactically sound decision. He had kids, which he took great care of, he did right by the White Face and he mourned Toc while the White Face destroyed Toc's killers. Nobody could outgeneral Tool or beat him in a fight amongst the Barghast. Nobody had his force of will and recognizance of what was the right thing to do.

The only spot Tool fell short in was having the next "thing to do" lined up after landing. He knew the tribes were going after the wrong enemy and sacrificed himself to save 100 plus warriors from total annihilation. Why he didn't just run away and let himself be captured - I don't know, perhaps Olar Ethil was messing with his mind there in subtle ways. But he did end up causing quite a few Barghast to wonder about the rightness of their current conflict. If Tavore had managed to tell Tool to go to Kolanse, I think he'd have done that spectacularly, but then... we wouldn't have much of a story with all the "good guy" armies moving unscathed to crush the "bad guys".

One thing I'd like to point out: Coltaine was an incredible leader and won his campaign - but he died. Dujek and Whiskeyjack died. Hood died. Anomander Rake died. Tavore's dealt with forces on the level of what the previous leaders dealt with and the difference is that she's still alive. Presence, and continued presence, counts for something.

I do not doubt Tool's martial prowess, or Tavore's intelligence, i just feel that as leaders(not as fighters or strategists) they fall short. Say whatever you will about Tool's morals, but had he taken action and been more decisive, the whole White-face tragedy could have been averted(or at least postponed). Of course he is imass, so him not understanding human nature is conceivable, but still...

As for Tavore, she could have easily had the hearts and minds of her soldiers, but she just seems so inept and weak to her soldiers, that they do not respect her. I feel that events(and copious amounts of luck) are what has shaped the BH, and give them purpose. That and the vets(Fiddler, QB, Stormy, Gesler, ETC)

I have always found the Parans to be a very interesting bunch(all three of them, i think it is interesting that they all became leaders), especially Tavore and Ganoes. I always thought it funny that Ganoes seems the better leader, despite the fact that he has no idea what he is doing.

Tavore on the other hand, she is purportedly brilliant and all sort of awesome, yet she comes out as incompetent(i do not care which plans she is following, she has yet to prove herself in mine and in the eyes of her soldiers).

[Abyss]

Tavore is neither incompetent nor a bad leader. Tactically we've seen her plans succeed in 7C, Malaz Island and Lether, on different scales and to different purposes, but ultimately while she's taken nasty casualties, she's generally won - the Whirlwind raiders were turned, the YGhatan seige was a (crispy) success, and she extracted her army from Malaz without giving up the Wickans and the Perish. She then invaded Edur occupied Leth and suceeded again. Yes, this was due to individual efforts of the Marines and especially Kalam in Malaz, but it was Tavore who put them there. And part of the whole Cold Iron thing is being ready to use your soldiers to maximum effect even if that means some, or a lot, of them die.

Tavore has a master plan. From what we saw in DoD, she seems to be marching her army to Kolanse in order to disrupt whatever the CG has planned and at the same time deny the alliance of Gods (presumably ST/Cots/QoD/Wolves/Drek(/Hood) tho that's speculation) access to his power.

In other words, at Tavore's call, the army is going to save the world and deny BOTH sides in the god-war.

But she knows stuff. Things that if she told the army, would either cause them to run away or, possibly, stop her from sacrificing herself. So she keeps a distance between herself and her soldiers.

But incompetent? I disagree completely.

- Abyss, fan of nineteen yr old lesbian military leaders with magic eating swords...

[Abyss]

And now for ICARIUM DID WHAT?????

Icarium's storyline was probably the most unusual for the book (and given the Snake, that's saying a lot). His brain snatched up seven bystanders' personalities when he triggered his machines in RG. These seven 'think' they are still in their bodies, even though it's just their souls that animate iccy. Iccy himself is reduced to a ghost observing the seven souls.

At least, that what it looked like...

But how did Feather Witch get in there? She was already dead when Iccy triggered his machines, wasn't she? And when Veed finally shows up, is it really his soul, or a construct made by Iccy to eliminate the absorbed personalities.

And do the personalities represent the new warrens Iccy seems to have created???

My brain, it hurtz.

I'll go start a thread on this, but I'll note here that whatever the case, i enjoyed reading about Icarium this way. Sucks that Mappo still can't catch up, but the part at the end when he drived the Uprooted was staggering...


- Abyss, amazed.

[Tiste Simeon]

Quite simply, if Tavore was that incompetent the army would stop following her. End of story really. There wouldn't have been much she could have done about it - it would have been easy to slip away into Letheras, or in a number of different places...

Though I wish I knew more about her cos I know she has some kind of hidden kick 4$$ power that she is yet to reveal...

[Pig Iron]

Abyss, on 09 September 2009 - 12:55 PM, said:

Tavore is neither incompetent nor a bad leader. Tactically we've seen her plans succeed in 7C, Malaz Island and Lether, on different scales and to different purposes, but ultimately while she's taken nasty casualties, she's generally won - the Whirlwind raiders were turned, the YGhatan seige was a (crispy) success, and she extracted her army from Malaz without giving up the Wickans and the Perish. She then invaded Edur occupied Leth and suceeded again. Yes, this was due to individual efforts of the Marines and especially Kalam in Malaz, but it was Tavore who put them there. And part of the whole Cold Iron thing is being ready to use your soldiers to maximum effect even if that means some, or a lot, of them die.

Tavore has a master plan. From what we saw in DoD, she seems to be marching her army to Kolanse in order to disrupt whatever the CG has planned and at the same time deny the alliance of Gods (presumably ST/Cots/QoD/Wolves/Drek(/Hood) tho that's speculation) access to his power.

In other words, at Tavore's call, the army is going to save the world and deny BOTH sides in the god-war.

But she knows stuff. Things that if she told the army, would either cause them to run away or, possibly, stop her from sacrificing herself. So she keeps a distance between herself and her soldiers.

But incompetent? I disagree completely.

- Abyss, fan of nineteen yr old lesbian military leaders with magic eating swords...

Crossposting this re Tavore:

I think a key point is what the main theme of the series is. A lot of the brooding of different characters seems to be about how civilization is subsumed by the power-hungry and used to enslave others. I think the Chainings, the closing of the SD gate, the crucificion of the OD, the creation of the warrens and the creation of Dragnipur might all have been ways to enforce order and grab power at the same time.

The message is that that kind of order comes at a high price for everyone else. The CG is a case in point, a god of love (perhaps) who becomes somthing like a disease. When you first hear about the Chainings you think it's the standard fantasy trope, the big bad guy was beaten and controlled, but by now you have to see it in a different light.

At the final convergence everyone is going to try and grab power as the CG is freed, a gate to SD is opened and the OD destroys the old warrens (there might still be Icarium's new ones). Everyone that is except Tavore and some unlikely allies who try to bring about an end to that old order in the name of mercy and the end of the tyranny of imposed order. The interesting thing is who those allies will be. I'm pretty sure ST and Cotillion have been plotting the end of the Elder Gods from the beginning. Hood and even Krul are probably in.

Tavore has no position in the Deck according to Fiddler's reading. I see her as the "enter the humans" force a la Lord of the Rings if you see what I mean.

[Tiste Simeon]

Pig Iron, on 09 September 2009 - 05:09 PM, said:

Tavore has no position in the Deck according to Fiddler's reading. I see her as the "enter the humans" force a la Lord of the Rings if you see what I mean.

Ooh I like that... I never saw it that way. Definitely in need of a reread now. It's been a week after all.

[Dravon]

I'm thinking Tavore is really the other talon, throatslitter mentioned. It makes sence, Tavore sent a talon to watch over her sister, Tavore is the major scholar in Kel and Dancer, and oddly enough where ever on the planet she show's up, well wow there are ST&C. Kel and Dancer would never give up a throne once they have it so how better to control the Malazan Empire (even after acsending) then through its adjudent? And wasnt it Tavore's "Lover" that saved the First throne and ST&C from Iccy? That would also explain where she keeps getting her info from.

[Abyss]

Dravon, on 10 September 2009 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'm thinking Tavore is really the other talon, throatslitter mentioned. It makes sence, ...

Y'know... that's totally possible. Cool theory, plusrep box clicked.

I tend to agree that much of Tavore's insider information came via the Eres/Tamber link, but with Tamber dead, the big question is how tied in Tavore still is. banaschar may have been able to provide some info, QB too.


- Abyss, insider trader.

[Witness]

Isn´t Tavore 19? Maybe slightly older?
When did she receive her secret training, somewhere between ignoring Felisin and playing Warhammer with Ganoes?

Sorry, but I don´t see that fitting anywhere.

Not to mention Cotilion expressing his surprise when Lostara Yil mentions the Talon is still around. I can´t remember the exact phrasing, but it seemed genuine.
And again upon finding that female ex-Talon on Drift Avalii, thinking she´d have died long ago.

Hey, it´s possible Tavore IS a Talon - but if so, I strongly doubt she´s with ST and the Rope.

[Abyss]

Witness, on 10 September 2009 - 06:53 PM, said:

Isn´t Tavore 19? Maybe slightly older?
When did she receive her secret training, somewhere between ignoring Felisin and playing Warhammer with Ganoes?

She's been adjunct for a little while when we first see her in HoC and by that point she already knew enough about the Talon to recruit Baudin. She doesn't need to be a full blown ex shadow cultist Cotillion groupie Talon assassin heir, she just needs to know how to read the signs Throatslitter was leaving.

Quote

Not to mention Cotilion expressing his surprise when Lostara Yil mentions the Talon is still around. I can´t remember the exact phrasing, but it seemed genuine.
And again upon finding that female ex-Talon on Drift Avalii, thinking she´d have died long ago.

That's because most of them are dead, but as we found out with Baudin, the survivors went underground so far even Cotillion didn't know about it.

Quote

Hey, it´s possible Tavore IS a Talon - but if so, I strongly doubt she´s with ST and the Rope.

Not saying she's Talon, but speculating she knows how to find them, and as above, the Talon in its current forms have nothing to do with Cotillion. Cots cut that connection when ST and him faked their deaths and allowed Laseen's Claw to hunt the surviving Talon down.

DG shows us there are a few in hiding, and HoC showed us Mallick and Korbolo had set up a new version that became the Black Glove.


- Abyss, just glovely.

[amphibian]

Abyss, on 10 September 2009 - 09:12 PM, said:

DG shows us there are a few in hiding, and HoC showed us Rallick and Korbolo had set up a new version that became the Black Glove.

Don't forget that Ameron, the former Talonmaster, had a small group of assassins going for a brief moment in RotCG.

[Fist Gamet]

Who knows, but I like to think that Tavore is actually Kellanved's daughter...

[Fist Gamet]

Awesomeness! HAIL THE MARINES!!

What a triumphant return to brilliance for SE, imho. Ok, so like in some of his books there is the odd storyline that just sucks (Shakey bakey make a snakey across the desert just bored the hell out of me, sorry). I wasn't sure of what to make about the end for Cafal and Hetan - first, it made me angry that SE had let Hetan fall with a whimper, and then he made it worse when Cafal, moments from saving her, got killed by some goddmaned nobodies! Aha, but then, the last scene where Hetan lies and dies so close to her brother was filled with a wonderful poignancy that made some kind of sense.

Seriously, the battle slaughter of the BH was so well done. I was utterly compelled. I was so tired but there was no way I could put it down and stop at that point. The heavies going toe to toe just cut me up. The end of the Khundryl was, for me, the only weak point as we should have gotten a little more out of that. They date back to the Chain of Dogs, crossed half the world and flung themselves into a suicidal charge...and that was it. Bit more pen time required.
As for the Bridgeburners, QB, the marines...well, you guys have already said it all. Brilliant.

PS - QB can't really be dead...can he? Something tells me we haven't seen the last of him.

This post has been edited by Fist Gamet: 11 September 2009 - 04:25 PM