[Malaese]

Path-Shaper, on May 14 2009, 10:17 AM, said:

@Mal

Your points in order.

1. That would be great, and JA if you could do that I would be your #1 fan. I know everyone says 'just jump in and play, it's the best way to learn'...and I agree it is, but it's not the only way, and its also a good way to learn bad habits!

2. Not sure what you mean...is that in relation to the next game? Seems a bit harsh, it's not always possible to know what is going to happen...look at me today. I should have been around almost all day...but I haven't been able to. If someone repeatedly does it then maybe, but I don't think that has happened...but I could be wrong...it's not unkown!

3. Seems fair and reasonable, but I guess it would be down to the mod whose game it is...I don't think any rules are set in stone are they.

I love the mentor idea, but I'm a bit of a feedback junkie (good or bad)...I will say though that supportive (neutral) mods are the only reason I felt able to continue to play. More to do with my own self doubt than any personality attack.

As for RP, I love it...and it got me lynched! I know, I know spam is terrible, but you can rp without it being spam. Well I think you can.

- bwgan

2. A yellow card is just that a warning, I think it takes 2 yellow cards to get a red card. I'm an american I don't know shit about soccer. Oh I see the confusion. If you request a mod kill for inactivity then yes a yellow. If you request a modkill because you are mad at the game or the players, red card. It's happened in the last two games, Bent and Venge, modkills should not be a way to get out of a mistake or anger about the game. I signed up to play with 12 other inno's you are cheating me by ducking out of the game for "non-legit" reasons.
3. yeah I underlined personally, just something to think about.

I'm not trying to homogenize gameplay, that'd be boring. Just some observations after my 6th game.

[Path-Shaper]

@ Mal - right I get it now. Like I said I agree with a lot of what you said...I think we started playing around the same time though, so I guess that's natural!

You and PB, picked it all up really fast though.

A message for when alt gets here:

mafia manager is cool!

Must go now. Inbox is emty, just did a vote count. Lazy mod isn't really lazy, just has annoyingly demanding family...they want food again...I fed them yesterday for heavens sake *sigh*.

- bwgan

[Jump Around]

For a modkill, there's been discussions about mini-banning of one game or something if it happens (specially when we had at some point players who ended up being inactivity-modkilled more or less routinely).

But these things that involve "powers" are difficult to implement.

[Malaese]

Jump Around, on May 14 2009, 10:39 AM, said:

For a modkill, there's been discussions about mini-banning of one game or something if it happens (specially when we had at some point players who ended up being inactivity-modkilled more or less routinely).

But these things that involve "powers" are difficult to implement.

Vigs? Yeah I know just food for thought for mods and players maybe. The other way is to do a good write up on "how to use a vig", but I'd just be making more work for you. winkwink

edit- in my mind it's almost the same as insane finder. cool mechanic, but if you put it into the game, you have to know it's likely to hurt the inno's more at least initially.

This post has been edited by Malaese: 14 May 2009 - 05:50 PM

[Jump Around]

I meant "powers of decide who can and who can't play"

For the vigs, I agree with you, but I don't think rules should be added to help people play better

[Malaese]

Whatever you guys think is best, I just wanted to get my feelings out there. I'll stop spamming the SH thread

[Vengeance]

Malaese, on May 14 2009, 11:26 AM, said:

I had some thoughts about the game last night, I don't know how good or bad they are.

1. I just reread the mafia pointers thread and there are a lot of funny jokes in there about how to play certain roles, but very little actually good information. Maybe someone should start with a good write-up of how to play roleless inno. It also reinforces bad meta play with always lynch this guy day 1 type of stuff.
2. Modkills for inactivity should be like a yellow card and requested modkills should be a red card.
3. Vigs I personally think vigs shouldn't activate until Night 2, too many people are irresponsible with them or use them as vendetta's for alt guesses which is against the spirit of the rules. Gem getting a vig Day 4 last game worked really well, random Day 1 vigs don't.

Inno's are basically one giant team and you have to expect that 13-20 people aren't going to get along, but for new players like me I can only go off of what I see other people doing in games. You can rail on Pb for trying something new, but you have to admit he's just emulating what he's seen in past games. For new players it's about learning what works and doesn't work in games. I learned my second game that lurking trap play as an inno is frowned upon, wish I'd read that somewhere first.

Set up a mentor or critique system where people ask for honest opinions about their play? While playing in 44 I thought I was playing the worst game in the world and was getting slammed so hard in thread I didn't really want to play here any more. A kind word from the mod at the time and talking to Bent afterwards changed my mind. But nobody every actually teaches you how to play right or points out what you could have done better. It's just omg so and so is really fucking up the game.

People need to learn that it's one player to an alt. There is no need to tell someone in the game how to play the game, they aren't going to listen to you and you are going to make the situation worse (re: pissing contests). For better or worse I'll play my game in my alt over here and you play your game in your alt over there. Remember you don't have all the information about the game either and maybe I'm doing something (revealing paired lovers) for a very good reason!

Pb and I have got a couple people interested in playing here after rereading games, but I'm not entirely convinced I want to reccomend the site any more with the current trend of things. That may sound emo, but it's honest.

I want to give props to Veng for making RI fun in the current game. I was into it and you should have stuck with it. Remember this is a game and support the people that draw the role peasant #5, you need them to have bigger games, veteran or new player alike. Veterans need to support the RI draw as well. You can read a million SH's and see the boo's and hisses when a veteran draws it, what are the new players to think then other than it's a shit role?

I actually love RI. I have never understood why people have hated on it. I made a mistake and got angry and posted on the thread that I would modkill myself. I shouldn't have done that. If I hadn't then I would have been fine until obdi vigged me. Once I posted it on the thread I felt that I had to follow through with it. My own fault I think that I will probably sit out a couple of games. We used to only start games on Mondays regardless of when the other one ended. It gave me a little bit of time to calm down in between games. I need it.

RI should be the funnest role. You can do anything you want to. When I'm an RI I can be anything that I want to be. I can be the healer/Guard/finder and I don't have to worry about doing anything or any consequences as an RI's job is to keep the game moving forward and to keep the scums NA from targeting the real roled innocents.

[Vengeance]

Malaese, on May 14 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

Whatever you guys think is best, I just wanted to get my feelings out there. I'll stop spamming the SH thread

Bugger that. Keep spamming the thread.

[Gem Windcaster]

On the topic of playing RI: people think I hate playing RI, but it's not that, it's just that I feel I am lousy at it, and that I think it's hard to do. Generally it depends on the game what kind of play I make of it. I take playing RI very seriously, that's why I sometimes explode - I think it's the same with Venge. We both take the role very seriously, so we get very frustrated when faced with ridiculous (we think) accusations and such. I think the average RI player that generally play sheep and do nothing on their own is a worse RI player - if you at least invest something in the role, you have more to loose.

[Jump Around]

Malaese, on May 14 2009, 08:54 PM, said:

Whatever you guys think is best, I just wanted to get my feelings out there. I'll stop spamming the SH thread

Why would you stop? On the contrary, SH is the best place to discuss.

I had a run of 3-4 games in my early days where I got killed early (night 1/2), and the time I spent watching the game and discussing in SH was when I learned the most.

[Path-Shaper]

Back to some PMs:

Fener said:

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By the phone and sexpo, its DK. The posting times are right as well. I don't know how DK plays scum, cuz I never, ever, understand wtf he thinks hes doing. HE baffles me every time he plays a game, because it seems so strange to me.

Yes we need to cooldown on the accusations, even if WE ARE ALWAYS CORRECT.

Ahem.

The Korvalian thing on Gamelon has to be the dumbest thing ever, but scum has been lynched on less. But Wow, why the fuck would BB tell UB to silence someone, Emur is riding along on that like it makes sense. WTF? I hate this game. lol

Yea im confused about it too.

I want to kill HP again.

HA!

Fener said:

Meanas said:

As we all know, I get into pissing matches with innos.

I am waiting for Ruse to answer my question regarding Silanah's reactions on day 1. After that, I will decide what to do. I cant alt Ruse, because I'm terrible at it, but with Morgy, Dibs, and JA not playing, with you on my team, veng is out, and bubba isn't around... I would be quite suprised that anyone is good enough to play like that if they are a killer...Famous last words, I know.

Oh and just so you now, I am still hiding. Works busy as fuck and it helps me hide, but were I not busy, Id still just lurk for a little while. I actually like that theres a small case on us, keeps the scum away usually. Anyway, Ill be on for good, in around 4 hours.

Actually, after a slow start I'm impressed at Sixty's cool as UB.

The roleless lovers:

Tennes said:

D'riss said:

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Probably Emur is scum. Only a few people are active at the lynch. Silenced by his partner or himself and let town run amok day 1.

Any scum guesses?

None at this point, noone has said anything that's really pinged my scumdar. I'm guessing both scum will lay relatively low for the first couple of days, it's easy to not make waves with 10+ people alive. TBH you're giving them place to hide by grabbing so much attention on thread. If you see something attack it rationally, else people will start to ignore you even if you're right. You will very likely be the number one lynch candidate today. I'm debating whether we should reveal when you're L-3. Being RI it isnt a huge loss to team inno, but we are guaranteed to be NK after that. At least there will be one less wasted lynch (and NK), plus it narrows the suspect pool for the roled players to look at at night.

/shrug We can reveal if it hairy. I'm not really worried about it.

Scum can just as easily hide in my spam as innos can. All we need to do is find the people that slip up in the mess. Korlat slipped and was innocent. My current suspicions are Emurlahn, Meanas, and Silanah, possibly Liosan.

Well noones looking at you anymore so it's ok. Those alts do stick out, but none of them have said something caseworthy.

Well lots of time today, so I'm gonna pretty much just stay low until afternoon.

Cool, try not to explode The good thing with the way you've been playing is you can stir things up without it being unusual.

[Vengeance]

Gem Windcaster, on May 14 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

On the topic of playing RI: people think I hate playing RI, but it's not that, it's just that I feel I am lousy at it, and that I think it's hard to do. Generally it depends on the game what kind of play I make of it. I take playing RI very seriously, that's why I sometimes explode - I think it's the same with Venge. We both take the role very seriously, so we get very frustrated when faced with ridiculous (we think) accusations and such. I think the average RI player that generally play sheep and do nothing on their own is a worse RI player - if you at least invest something in the role, you have more to loose.

That is true. I hate sheep unless I am scum... :snigger:

Well I also am told that I have a temper and might have a small anger problem. Some guys at work call me the angriest man they know. But in my defense how many times can one person listen to the morons on Espn or Cnbc with out flipping out....sigh...

[Sir Thursday]

Playing RI requires a lot of patience, I feel. You can't just come out and expect to find the scum right away, it takes time and effort to come to the right conclusions, more so than pretty much every other role as you have to make up for the lack of information you have to begin with. I am not very good at the start because I don't really have the ability to make myself standout in a crowd and draw the NK, but I find if I can make it a few days, then I can be of more use.

(I'm saying this, but I haven't actually been a proper RI since Mafia 38, so maybe things have changed since then...guess we'll see next time I get one, this run of roles has to end sometime).


Sir Thursday

[Malaese]

Gem Windcaster, on May 14 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

On the topic of playing RI: people think I hate playing RI, but it's not that, it's just that I feel I am lousy at it, and that I think it's hard to do. Generally it depends on the game what kind of play I make of it. I take playing RI very seriously, that's why I sometimes explode - I think it's the same with Venge. We both take the role very seriously, so we get very frustrated when faced with ridiculous (we think) accusations and such. I think the average RI player that generally play sheep and do nothing on their own is a worse RI player - if you at least invest something in the role, you have more to loose.

Gem I don't want to attack you but I want to note what you say is part of the problem. It's not worse actually, it's another style and has it's benefits. If I could only tell a new player 1 thing about RI it'd be, have fun and don't steal focus. The most powerful mechanic in the game is your brain not some power you are given. So it's perfectly reasonable that an RI player would want to get to the end game to try and figure it out. It's also part of the sentiment that RI is just cannon fodder and there is a certain logic to that strategy, but the flip-side is you can't wonder why people get frustrated drawing the role.

I think there is too much finger pointing going on in the game and in the SH speculation outside of the game about good and bad gameplay people are really uptight about it and stuck into that "my way is best" mindset. Just as an example, I don't think Pb is playing his best game, but he's not playing the game wrong by any stretch, but some of the comments in here are going to be harsh for him to read afterwards I think. No different than people getting salty in the game thread about what someone is doing. You may not like it, but fuck me it almost worked with Gamelon and drumstick. You can't argue that!

[Path-Shaper]

I think PB had a good game so far.

He didn't find any scum, but of course, it's early. But he got things going and made things happen, without coming out too suspicious. I don't see why people would complain.

The only "bad" play I've seen so far is the night 1 vig and Vengeance modkill request, and even the second one I thing was just a bad moment.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 14 May 2009 - 07:11 PM

[Vengeance]

Path-Shaper, on May 14 2009, 02:11 PM, said:

I think PB had a good game so far.

He didn't find any scum, but of course, it's early. But he got things going and made things happen, without coming out too suspicious. I don't see why people would complain.

The only "bad" play I've seen so far is the night 1 vig and Vengeance modkill request, and even the second one I thing was just a bad moment.

Thanks...


I think that PB has been playing well in this game.

[Malaese]

I guess the conclusion I'm coming to is to say that people need to realize that inno's are going to play different by definition and that to RAGE on that play steals focus from the game. So I'd hope that inno's would be more appreciative of each other in the future or why not just play solitaire. I also came to the same realization for my pet peeve of meta crap on the game and that I have to accept it in some sense not to steal focus because if I were still playing would have been livid at SeXpo guy signaling his alt on thread.

[Sir Thursday]

Malaese, on May 14 2009, 08:00 PM, said:

Gem Windcaster, on May 14 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

On the topic of playing RI: people think I hate playing RI, but it's not that, it's just that I feel I am lousy at it, and that I think it's hard to do. Generally it depends on the game what kind of play I make of it. I take playing RI very seriously, that's why I sometimes explode - I think it's the same with Venge. We both take the role very seriously, so we get very frustrated when faced with ridiculous (we think) accusations and such. I think the average RI player that generally play sheep and do nothing on their own is a worse RI player - if you at least invest something in the role, you have more to loose.

Gem I don't want to attack you but I want to note what you say is part of the problem. It's not worse actually, it's another style and has it's benefits. If I could only tell a new player 1 thing about RI it'd be, have fun and don't steal focus. The most powerful mechanic in the game is your brain not some power you are given. So it's perfectly reasonable that an RI player would want to get to the end game to try and figure it out. It's also part of the sentiment that RI is just cannon fodder and there is a certain logic to that strategy, but the flip-side is you can't wonder why people get frustrated drawing the role.

I think there is too much finger pointing going on in the game and in the SH speculation outside of the game about good and bad gameplay people are really uptight about it and stuck into that "my way is best" mindset. Just as an example, I don't think Pb is playing his best game, but he's not playing the game wrong by any stretch, but some of the comments in here are going to be harsh for him to read afterwards I think. No different than people getting salty in the game thread about what someone is doing. You may not like it, but fuck me it almost worked with Gamelon and drumstick. You can't argue that!

There are pros and cons to both the drawing NKs and the playing for endgame strategies as RI. As I said before, I prefer to do the latter, but you can't have everyone do that, because otherwise the game falls apart. You need to get the grain of sand for the pearl to grow around from somewhere .

Regarding PB's play, I don't think his general strategy is wrong, per se, but that method only really works if you can distinguish between slips made by innocents who have been riled up and actual scum slips. There are always going to be far more of the former than the latter, because first of all there are more innos, and secondly the scum are more likely to be careful. It seemed to me like PB seized on the first thing that came up, which to be honest wasn't much of anything at all. He would have been better off finding a few slips before pushing hard for a lynch on the most suspicious one. Also, if you're going to be aggressive and try and catch scum out, then you need to spread your nets a lot wider than PB did - you've got to target several players as opposed to just one, and draw reactions from the people who don't want to give them. The scum like more than watching the innos harass each other, so they're not going to intervene if they can help it. That means you need to control your aggression and stop things from getting out of hand, and switch targets early and often. There is a fine line between being aggressive and being distracting to your teammates, after all, and if you stay in one place you're going to end up squarely on the wrong side of it. That is what I feel happened to PB here, and hopefully he'll take some of that onboard for next time .


Sir Thursday

This post has been edited by Sir Thursday: 14 May 2009 - 07:21 PM

[Path-Shaper]

One last PM from Grief, and I'm off to bed:

Telas said:

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Investigate Ruse please.

Your request is noted - thanks.

- bwgan

It's nice to have a mod who doesn't sound like they're laughing at you in SH.

You're not laughing right.

RIGHT?

[Mentalist]

meh, meta thing is part of the whole community aspect.

as for playing RI: I also rarely have any gripes about it. I fully belong to the "RI is cannon fodder" school of thought, thus when I play RI, I generally have the least reservations about how I play the game--the great coin-flip is a great example of that,

also, I disagree with Malaese about things like insane finders--imho, we need MORE things like that. this board is STILL pasinfully dependent on finders, and some scum players *cough* JA *cough* often exploit this.

RIs should be making cases and using their brains. being a sheep is not a good style. Nor is playing really non-agressively, just to get to the end game. it's selfish, imho, and undemines the concept of mafia as a team game. Inoccents SHOULD be ready to die at any point in the game, with no exceptions--that's what it means "taking one for the team"

meh, dunno, I'm starting to ramble, but that's what I think about the topic.