[Gem Windcaster]

Fact remains, Malaese, I know that if I don't make cases and participate, I get called on it and probably lynched. Maybe it's just my playing style, maybe it requires me to participate more than other players need to, but it's not as simple as you made it out to be in your post.
I'm not sure I understood the comment about 'nobody would listen', can you elaborate?

[Mentalist]

Very true, when Gem tries to coast, I usually end up making a case on her (without knowing it's gem),

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 14 May 2009 - 10:03 PM

[Gem Windcaster]

Mentalist, on May 14 2009, 10:02 PM, said:

Very true, when Gem tries to coast, I susally end up making a case on her (without knowing it's gem),

Yeah, it's like I have this giant sign on my forehead: I'm an easy target, lynch me!

[Malaese]

I never said anything about participation, participation is very important for inno's, I merely pointed out to bwgan that you don't always have to be making cases as was suggested. Supporting other people's cases that you agree with is just as strong and doesn't dilute the focus near as much. Think of inno's as a tribe, there need to be chiefs and indians, not everyone can be the chief and it doesn't have to be the same everyday. But I think if we were to continue down the path of raging on people's game play and boxing people's play into set criteria and thinking the collective we know best then it's going to turn into what you are starting to see now clique's and islands of people with the occasional furious lone ranger which is counter productive to inno's winning the game or even having an enjoyable game.

My comment was that you want to be the chief a lot, which isn't wrong either, but as chief you need the indians to listen to you. If you tell them they should all be chiefs well then chiefs don't really matter in the game anymore.

[Gem Windcaster]

Believe me, I've tried coasting. It doesn't end well.

I'm not saying people need to make giant cases all the time - I'm just against sheep play, where players don't make any effort at all, and just place a vote without even explaining.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 14 May 2009 - 10:07 PM

[Mentalist]

mal, there's a fine line betwen agreeing with cases and flat out sheeping.

if you just say " I agree with so and so's case", you WILL get labelled as sheep or scum jmping on a train.
It may seem redundant, but it's always good to re-iterate the points you find most convincing--it serves as a degree of "proof" that you've thought about the cases.

[Sir Thursday]

Guard reveal from M45 *facepalm*

[Path-Shaper]

Jumped into PS to post some PMs.

Some disbelief from Obdi and Bent:

Fener said:

Meanas said:

Fener said:

Meanas said:

Fener said:

Im not even pushing the case. Hell look at last game, THATS pushing a shitty day one case. Wow. Just wow.

I know, Silanah interjected himself into my argument with Ruse today, and then started claiming that I am blowing up at him day after day.

Is DK just playing fucking horribly, or is he evil?

Sil just said we wont stop until hes dead, yet we are both voting RUSE! HAHAHAHA!!!


You need to point that out, please.

I have not voted for anyone today. At all. I made a tiny case on Ruse because he wasn't doing anything. That is it.

thats too funny.

Conversation between PB and Alt:

Tennes said:

D'riss said:

Tennes said:

Just got to work, so wont have chance to post for a while. Hopefully I will be able to sneak away for a bit. Shift work sucks let me tell you.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Sil is either roled or scum. It's mainly meta, but he very rarely makes this much effort to come online at night if he's RI. My gut says something is up with either Emur or Gam, but I've been pretty brain-dead all of today from having my sleeping patterns screwed with.

If I were you I would get online pretty soon. AFAIK modkill limit is only 24 hours this game and you're getting close to that.

Anyway, I gotta be going.

I posted a case before you posted this. I dunno much about DKT to know enough about Sil, but I have a case on korv right now. Build a sil one if you want. The longer it's clear we aren't together the better for both of us

My main problem is that I still cant decided if he's roled or not. Will do a reread of him when I have a little more time. I actually kinda like Korv or Fener at the moment, but there's still tons of time left in the day.

Sixty wishes he could give Shin some advice:

Ruse said:

Gamelon, what are you doing?!?! Stop being nice! Be a dick!

So non-confrontational...I'm hoping he survives more than a couple more nights.

Hopefully he kills Liosan tonight, for my sake.

More from Alt:

Tennes said:

Meh, I'm having a terrible game. If you ever get offered the chance to do shift work... DONT! I feel like I'm in bizzaro world. My sleep cycle is completely screwed, my brain feels like it's molasses. It's damn wierd when everyone's coming home from work when you wake up.

Really cant peg anyone as scum, feel like I'm missing something. 2am is a wierd time of day, esspresso is good for you.

And here's M45 with a provisional:

Korvalain said:

guard Meanas

M45 is back with some altguesses. Morgy isn't playing though...

Korvalain said:

I Meanas Morgoth? I mean, he turns up obviously drunk...

Is D'riss Grief? Cuz I think he and I have done this dance before...

Then he asks for a modkill. I told him no.

Path-Shaper said:

Korvalain said:

If they try to lynch me before I get back, I respectfully request a modkill if I reach L-1. I refuse to let them waste a lynch on me.

You don't get to ask for a modkill in that situation. If you are at L-1, it is likely you will die anyway, and thus from a moderator's perspective a modkill is pointless. Plus, the modkill is NOT there to be used for your own advantage, so don't try to use it as such.

Sir Thursday

And to round it off, here's D'rek with some alt-guesses:

Emurlahn said:

Goddamn, I just sent off a msg and the web browser thingy goes to error message. Bummeroo. Well since I was bored and didn't feel like contributing to the thread, I reread and made a complete alt-guess, which is I'm sure horribly wrong since I don't play much on this board. Anyways, I wanna make sure I don't change or mis-remember myself into thinking I wasn't as wrong as I am, so here it is, enjoy laughing at my erroneousness.

D'riss - Sixty
Liosan - Bubba
Emurlahn - D'rek
Korvalain - morg45
Telas - Bent
Silanah - dkt
Fener - obdi
Gamelon - peanut
Meanas - grief
Ruse - alt
Tennes - Shin

Well he got Bubba, M45 and DKT, but missed the rest.


Sir Thursday

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 15 May 2009 - 03:45 AM

[Path-Shaper]

Right, that's me done for the night. Adios, amigos!

[Path-Shaper]

I'm back!

JA


PS: at the reveal

[Path-Shaper]

M45 had the most important role of the game, why was he so pissed at D'riss' case?

D'riss said himself, nobody is following it. Do people really expect to play a small game like this without anyone ever finding some posts/quotes to make a wrong case against them?

[Path-Shaper]

Big Shin has some thoughts:

Quote

Last night my timezone had me a little uncomfortable. Opinion can fly in different directions so quickly that I thought there was a possibility I'd wake up lynched.

My paranoia about making mistakes has more to do with my inexperience with the game than anything else. I'm fairly confident in my ability to escape detection and deflect attention when needed. But I keep suspecting that I'll make a post that looks scummy, not because it's a mistake on my part, but because it contains something I just haven't realized due to inexperience. Like, if I post something and everyone comes back "That's a total scum move, just like back in game XXXX!"

I'm expecting a find pointed in my direction tonight, especially if Korv gets lynched. At least, I would put a find on Gamelon if I was the seer in this game. The noisy ones would be easier to get lynched off, so you gotta really check on which cruisers can be trusted and which can't.

I want a Korv lynch, because then I won't have to bother trying to kill him, which may or may not go through if there's a healer around. He may actually be lying, if he's roleless, in order to make the NK target himself rather than someone important. That seems a little far-fetched though, because getting himself lynched wouldn't help team inno. Either way, can I take that chance? Not really, and anyways he was on my radar for the kill already. Obviously, this is another reason why a lynch would be better, then I don't have to stress the decision and I can kill someone else.

[Gavin]

Some interesting thoughts here in spoilers and I wanted to give me take on the matters from my high horse

Long rambling thoughts to follow.


For starters I think we all agree Mafia is a great deal of fun. Each game is different, different people, different roles, even
same game but different people in different roles makes it always unique and challenging. It is also be mind blowing confusing and complicated and every game is hard, there aren't easy games of Mafia where everything falls into place. Everyone plays it differently, there's not right way or wrong way to play the game as well.

I also think we got a pretty good community of players here. There can be tensions in the game, swearing, cursing, people getting upset, that for better or worse is part of the game, people get involved and passionate about it, as long as its not outright abuse I think its a good thing. If it people didn't get emotionally involved it wouldn't be like it is.
Outside the game everyone is friendly and gets along, we try and be new people friendly, and we got a good mix of old and new players.

IMO there is a difference in bad play and that might get confusing.
Its easy to play a game badly, you guess wrong, think someone is scum build a case and your wrong. You think someone isn't scum, defend them to the bitter end and they are scum. Its the way it goes. We say oh Ment is having a bad game, or JA is having a bad game, and no one means to offend, and I'm sure they aren't offended and will acknowledge they were on the wrong track. It happens to everyone and no one is thought lesser of it. Its so easy to get caught up and mislead, or confused, I mean its part of the game, it always happens.

However what bad play I think JA was talking about in the previous game and we are trying to get rid of more, is the play that doesn't need to happen. Innocents exploding on thread, claiming all kinds of things, just spamming the game then the Mod kill. Using Role Pm's to work out innocence. Throwing your toys and screwing things over for your team. Its silly stupid things like that which shouldn't need to happen but do, and thats what we want to see less of. Where people don't seem to care that other people are also playing the game and are on your team and trying to win.

So can we do things better?
So this is just general play stuff not advice for playing RI.
I think people need to just try and put in a little effort no matter what role they get. You see a setup and think, "Wow I'd love to be X" and end up roleless inno and then lose interest. Well fact is most games there is a pretty good chance of getting roleless inno so you should expect it.
Just because your RI doesn't mean you shouldn't try, you have a very important job - to try and win for your team and find the scum, and protect your roled players.

Some things I've noticed as well is people will often vote on a case, especially early on simply because its not them in the firing line. Day 1 is hard, chances are your not going to get a killer but sometimes we settle for cases which are just so bad they shouldn't be getting votes, but somehow they end up being lynched.

If you see a case being made and you don't agree say so and defend it. Too often when that does happen people jump up and down and say "Symp Symp!" when they see someone being defended and I think that puts people off defending others. We seem to have this sheep mentality where we follow along and not stand up. I see a lot of, "This case is crap but I'm voting anyway" or such things. I know I do it as well on occasion, where I'm a little nervous that the person might actually be a killer and then i'm next to go. But almost all times they turn up to be innocent and I curse myself for not standing up.

Part of it is people want to survive and if it means voting of someone whose not you, but on a case you disagree with, then too often it does happen. Whats worse is when the person making the case see's someone defending it and says, "Oh well now I'm even more sure your scum". People need to think things through a little more - if people are defending your case, maybe your case isn't as good as you thought.

Sir Thursday has a good point about the patience as well. Often the scum aren't found till Day 4 or 5 when the other suspects have been eliminated one way or another.

Lastly, we see too much toy throwing. If your inno and someone builds a case on you, so what? Its frustrating that you know your innocent but these things happen, but don't just throw it all away and exploded on threat, or suddenly reveal, or self vote saying "haha you'll be sorry" Its just utterly wrong and shouldn't be done. If you get voted off then you get voted off but try and defend yourself. Don't just give up or screw things over.


So to sum that all up
- Firstly. THINK about everything thats going on.
- Put a little effort in, no matter what role you get. Don't join a game and expect to be roled you will be disappointed.
- Think things through properly if your doing something that is getting resistance ask yourself, "Is it scum, or is my case not that good?' Don't just be a big Tool about it, try and be objective and see where they are coming from.
- Don't be afraid to defend someone if you see something thats doesn't seem right, don't follow the flock
- And lastly a little patience isn't going to hurt. If your getting huffy and about to do something to screw the team over.. stop go away for a few minutes.. reconsider and hopefully not do it

I also think Veng has raised a good point. We almost play too much Mafia now we basically go from one game straight into the next with only the setup time in between. Maybe a start on Mondays wouldn't be a bad idea for non Minis. Let some anticipation build etc.

Anyway just my thoughts on it. I could have kept going...

[drinksinbars]

nicely put gavin, i tried to say something similar earlier but decided a few lines was all i could think of

[Path-Shaper]

I'm mentioning this on the "pointers" I'm writing for roleless inno, but about defending someone:

I agree you should feel free to express your disapproval about a case being made. The one caveat for this is that I always prefer to let the person accused defend themselves first.

Sometimes I make a case on someone knowing where the weaknesses are, but I want to see if how the person will react and if they will come up with the "inno" explanation for their behavior. It's hard to explain, but anyways. And in this case, it does annoy me when someone comes and just destroys the pressure, I think it's a potential loss of information, and it can be seen as sympish.

I also agree the games come too fast one after the other. Back in the times where getting enough players was a hassle, we had more time to marinate our mistakes (and other's). Then again, we have many players now and we can't always accomodate, so I guess it's everyone's "responsibility" to take breathers from time to time and skip a game or two.

[drinksinbars]

i am only playing in low tmdi games for foreseeable future, they are much more tactical and the break lets my paranoia slip back to reaosnable levels between games.

in regards tot he game, that was the most pointless reveal of all time. guard ina game with only one scum is THE POWER ROLE!!!! omfg. cant believe that

[Path-Shaper]

As for comments in spoiler heaven, well the point is to discuss the game, so of course there might be some harsh comments about certain players at certain times.

I admit I am sometimes shocked when catching up and seeing what people were saying about my play. But then again, that's the point of discussions. I don't consider anyone to be a bad player, but of course everyone make bad moves from time to time, and it's good to notice them and talk about them. I guess it's like the rules of the game thread: stay civil when you talk about others, and don't take things personally - use it to improve.

And let's remember that mafia is one of the easiest games in the world when you know who is what

[drinksinbars]

Path-Shaper, on May 15 2009, 08:45 AM, said:

As for comments in spoiler heaven, well the point is to discuss the game, so of course there might be some harsh comments about certain players at certain times.

I admit I am sometimes shocked when catching up and seeing what people were saying about my play. But then again, that's the point of discussions. I don't consider anyone to be a bad player, but of course everyone make bad moves from time to time, and it's good to notice them and talk about them. I guess it's like the rules of the game thread: stay civil when you talk about others, and don't take things personally - use it to improve.

And let's remember that mafia is one of the easiest games in the world when you know who is what

yeah i recieved a lot of harsh critiisism last game as i was reading through, but then i did say in my first pm i had one goal, to survive until the end when it mattered and i did, so "eat your words ALT!! eat them!!"

*cough*

Ahem.

yes on that note, i have to do some work on my writing contest entry.

[Path-Shaper]

The guard guarded Kessobahn on night 1, so no extra information there for team inno. I think Gamelon's vote was a bit harsh, let's see if they take it as scummy

[drinksinbars]

that was a dubious play on shins part, benefit of the doubt on reveals is the way to go. he had been keeping relatively clean the whole game, but he needs to make more cases, on everyone especially uncle.

about the rules, - i would recommend havign provisionals in form ub for the nk in case shin gets lynched, or allow shin to influence the next kill so you dont have to freeze the thread, the reason being iff it happens over the weekend then there could be a long gap and certain players will meta their way to victory.