[Cause]

Azath I think you’re arguing about a disagreement which only you see. Zeus law might be an anachronism but as you yourself agree the concept of Xenia was real, Zeus was primarily the god responsible for guarding it. So is it really worth arguing about? Zeus law is a much simpler way of explaining the concept, along with treat strangers well because Zeus likes disguises.

Norse mythology I believe has an identical concept. Odin too likes disguises.

The Hebrew bible similiarly dating back 3000 years has moral stories about being kind to strangers. As do countless other cultures. Before cars, planes, cars, post and even their ancient predecessors were a thing travel was incredibly difficult and there is an almost universal concept of exhorting you to be kind to strangers as result. We don’t need to be Pendantic about the name.

Spoiler

Nolan’s take on the Trojan horse violating Xenia is however I think entirely his invention. Combined with quite brilliant use of the noticeable concurrence of sea people raids, if the real Troy war date by historians is trustworthy. In any event the illiad and odyssey were written centuries after the fact so are myth and not history.

I’m not an Ancient Greek historian but my recollection is that Athena was on the side of the Greeks and she herself as Odysseus sponsor was maybe even the inspiration for the idea. Zeus was neutral. Poseidon and Apollo sided with Troy. The Trojan horse was meant as an offering for Poseidon for favorable conditions on the journey back. He was the god of horses, and the ocean, and earthquakes (his portfolio is just bizarre).

One point of the Iliad is that tragedy befalls those who defy the gods and fate. They wouldn’t have knowingly transgressed Zeus. They saw the Trojan ploy as a brilliant and celebrated move of cunning. Not as the spark of receipt that doomed civilization.

On the color thing. In all human languages the pattern seems to be dark/bright > black/white > red (blood) > everything else in different orders > blue. Despite the sky and ocean being blue it’s always the last color to enter a language. There were no ways to create artificial blue dyes for centuries and so I believe the scholarly consensus is that Homer used wine-dark as you say as a description of saturation. I’m color blind so this whole idea has always fascinated me. Different cultures identify different number of bands in the rainbow and cultures which have more names for shades of greens are naturally more sensitive to noticing shades of greens that other cultures would ignore. I just think this amongst other things shows however that we just can’t really appreciate how our ancestors of 3000 years ago thought about things. Owning slaves would have been as common and as morally objectionable as a shepherd owning sheep. They could not fathom the number 0 or what it represents and they had no idea of the mathematical concept of odds. To them a throw of the dice,bones was gods will. Honor and reputation were far more important and real than they might be today. We are raised with thought-software , for lack of a better term, they literally didn’t have and which we don’t even notice. And of course vice-versa.

Of course outside of academic exercises what people dead 3000 years ago thought of Xenia doesn’t matter. It’s a 2026 film, for a 2026 audience and the odyssey cachet is because it’s fascinated us for over a millennia.

Edit: I got some things mixed up in my recollection. Poseidon built the walls of Troy but wasn’t paid and so he was actually pro Greek. The horse was always an offering for Athena.

This post has been edited by Cause: 23 July 2026 - 03:30 AM

[Macros]

But let's get down to the dirty nitty gritty, in Elon Musk and Mel Gibsons historically accurate Grok made version, will Achilles bang Patroclus real good?

[Tsundoku]

@Cause
"The Trojan horse was meant as an offering for Poseidon for favorable conditions on the journey back."

Not quite. It was meant to LOOK LIKE that to the Trojans, so they'd take it inside the walls. Tricksy Odysseus.

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 23 July 2026 - 05:49 AM, said:

But let's get down to the dirty nitty gritty, in Elon Musk and Mel Gibsons historically accurate Grok made version, will Achilles bang Patroclus real good?

I like Wolfgang Peterson's 2004 TROY, but MAN it pisses me off that they made Achilles and Patroclus into platonic cousins...the depth of their love for one another is part of what makes their parts of the Iliad so compelling. All to appeal to "broader audiences"....ugh broader audiences in 2004 could 100% have handled it. Stupid studio.

[Macros]

Yeah, it had such great potential and squandered it with a lot of choices

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 23 July 2026 - 11:21 AM, said:

Macros, on 23 July 2026 - 05:49 AM, said:

But let's get down to the dirty nitty gritty, in Elon Musk and Mel Gibsons historically accurate Grok made version, will Achilles bang Patroclus real good?

I like Wolfgang Peterson's 2004 TROY, but MAN it pisses me off that they made Achilles and Patroclus into platonic cousins...the depth of their love for one another is part of what makes their parts of the Iliad so compelling. All to appeal to "broader audiences"....ugh broader audiences in 2004 could 100% have handled it. Stupid studio.

true, tho i thought they sold Patroclus' taking Achilles place out of ego and dying against Hector well enough to set up the final fight.

It was interesting to me that Nolan's ODYSSEY does not ever show Achilles. I can see why, because between Odysseus, Agamemnon, and Meneleus, you kind of have all the archetypes already in the audience's sight and Achilles might have just confused things, but it's interesting that Nolan didn't give in to temptation to take a shot at rewriting (or outdoing) Pitt's depiction even a little.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Interview with Emily Wilson on Nolan's Odyssey: https://www.derektho...icated-feelings

Quote

I don’t think it’s a complicated movie. And I don’t think it’s even about a complicated man. I think it’s a quite simple action hero movie about an action hero who feels bad about being an action hero.

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 23 July 2026 - 04:31 PM

[amphibian]

I think the problem with showing Achilles is that he tends to overpower every other story told because he is who he is. Odysseus almost stands as a contrast to Achilles (even though he was plenty feared as a warrior) because he isn't on the short rails to glory and being remembered forever as the best warrior ever. The sly fox is on the long journey.

[amphibian]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 23 July 2026 - 04:16 PM, said:

Interview with Emily Wilson on Nolan's Odyssey: https://www.derektho...icated-feelings

Quote

I don’t think it’s a complicated movie. And I don’t think it’s even about a complicated man. I think it’s a quite simple action hero movie about an action hero who feels bad about being an action hero.

This was really neat. Thank you.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 23 July 2026 - 03:07 PM, said:

It was interesting to me that Nolan's ODYSSEY does not ever show Achilles. I can see why, because between Odysseus, Agamemnon, and Meneleus, you kind of have all the archetypes already in the audience's sight and Achilles might have just confused things, but it's interesting that Nolan didn't give in to temptation to take a shot at rewriting (or outdoing) Pitt's depiction even a little.

For sure, but I feel like Achilles would have been unimportant to the story he told, I think the regular soldiers holding him to account in Hades was much more in line with the lesson Odysseus was learning. Even Agamemnon is used in a particular way as a cautionary tale of a small regular man who used ridiculous armour to cover up his own inadequacies. I don't know that there is a way to make Achilles into something that aligns with that here without far too much of the Illiad as context.

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 23 July 2026 - 04:16 PM, said:

Interview with Emily Wilson on Nolan's Odyssey: https://www.derektho...icated-feelings

Quote

I don’t think it’s a complicated movie. And I don’t think it’s even about a complicated man. I think it’s a quite simple action hero movie about an action hero who feels bad about being an action hero.

It's such a weird statement as I felt that "action movie" is the farthest thing from what I watched. Like is there action in it? Of course, but it's alway done with an eye for the trauma over anything else. The cyclops scene especially illustrates this, as does the Laestrygonians scene. We are always focused on how Odysseus sees the events and how it affects them. And as such, I felt the profundity of Nolans vision lay in the character work and how he ties the whole thing into a modern view of war and inhumanity.

Moreover, Wilson is a strange one as she gets regularly raked over the coals for her "modern syntax" translation but now here she's essentially advocating for the more "hero is a hero" view that Odysseus tends to fall into which is ultimately a little boring and one-dimensional, made moreso by her prose choice. So Nolan's version is at least attempting to be more interesting beyond the tale itself. It should be noted I've never cared for her version, and it's one of the things that stayed me from getting excited about this beforehand as Nolan seemed to tout her translation as what he was basing some of his on.

There is also lots of Madeline Miller's CIRCE here...A LOT...like you would have to close your eyes to not see that novel in Nolans film during that sequence. So I think he picked and chose things he found interesting from various sources and made something compelling and fresh with it.

amphibian, on 23 July 2026 - 05:07 PM, said:

I think the problem with showing Achilles is that he tends to overpower every other story told because he is who he is. Odysseus almost stands as a contrast to Achilles (even though he was plenty feared as a warrior) because he isn't on the short rails to glory and being remembered forever as the best warrior ever. The sly fox is on the long journey.

A very good point too.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 23 July 2026 - 05:29 PM

[QuickTidal]

Like this:

Quote

It’s a fun summer action movie

Is about as far from the movie I watched than one could state...This is first and foremost a drama and it makes me question Emily's grasp of film as a medium. I doubt "Action" would be a descriptor I would even add were I cataloguing it. The vast majority of the film is atmosphere, and sailing, and conversations. The Action portions are scattered and usually short (the longest one being the final fight inside the keep in Ithaka).

so I dunno what she's talking about, nor do I trust her view of it. Shrug

EDIT: Perhaps she's too close to the source material as she sees it? I Dunno.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 23 July 2026 - 05:38 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

So I realised recently that I'm seriously lacking in sci-fi nerd cred because I've never seen Blade Runner. I know, I know. You can put the pitchforks down though because I have remedies that this very evening.

It was good! I can see why it's considered a classic though I wouldn't necessarily put it as the greatest sci-fi movie ever. I did enjoy it and I'm glad I've watched it.

[amphibian]

To me, the Tears in Rain speech makes the movie significantly better than the book because it's so much pain and passion exploding onto the screen during what is sometimes a kinda dry and confusing bumble through the story.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 23 July 2026 - 11:57 PM

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 23 July 2026 - 08:36 PM, said:

So I realised recently that I'm seriously lacking in sci-fi nerd cred because I've never seen Blade Runner. I know, I know. You can put the pitchforks down though because I have remedies that this very evening.

It was good! I can see why it's considered a classic though I wouldn't necessarily put it as the greatest sci-fi movie ever. I did enjoy it and I'm glad I've watched it.

You need to watch BLADE RUNNER 2049 now. An arguably perfect sequel that takes strands of the plot from the first film and pulls them out without taking away any of the first films story. Just a wonderful movie.

and prepare for BLADE RUNNER 2099 on Amazon (starring Michelle Yeoh and the always lovely Hunter Schaffer).

amphibian, on 23 July 2026 - 11:54 PM, said:

To me, the Tears in Rain speech makes the movie significantly better than the book because it's so much pain and passion exploding onto the screen during what is sometimes a kinda dry and confusing bumble through the story.

100% agreed.

[QuickTidal]

What in the uncanny valley makeup...???




Looks at the director...oh it's Ti West. Huh yeah this won't be for me.

[QuickTidal]

Also speaking of ATLA, this new movie looks incredible!

[Tiste Simeon]

QuickTidal, on 24 July 2026 - 11:18 AM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 23 July 2026 - 08:36 PM, said:

So I realised recently that I'm seriously lacking in sci-fi nerd cred because I've never seen Blade Runner. I know, I know. You can put the pitchforks down though because I have remedies that this very evening.

It was good! I can see why it's considered a classic though I wouldn't necessarily put it as the greatest sci-fi movie ever. I did enjoy it and I'm glad I've watched it.

You need to watch BLADE RUNNER 2049 now. An arguably perfect sequel that takes strands of the plot from the first film and pulls them out without taking away any of the first films story. Just a wonderful movie.

and prepare for BLADE RUNNER 2099 on Amazon (starring Michelle Yeoh and the always lovely Hunter Schaffer).

You know what I think I saw that a few years back and quite enjoyed it but I obviously didn't know the world so well. I seem to recall him talking to a massive hologram of a woman or something. I'm definitely going to watch it again and I saw about the TV show too.

Quote

amphibian, on 23 July 2026 - 11:54 PM, said:

To me, the Tears in Rain speech makes the movie significantly better than the book because it's so much pain and passion exploding onto the screen during what is sometimes a kinda dry and confusing bumble through the story.

100% agreed.

Yes agreed. I've heard of the speech before as it gets quoted and memed quite a bit but yeah it's a great scene.

[Abyss]

Tiste Simeon, on 23 July 2026 - 08:36 PM, said:

So I realised recently that I'm seriously lacking in sci-fi nerd cred because I've never seen Blade Runner. I know, I know. You can put the pitchforks down though because I have remedies that this very evening.

It was good! I can see why it's considered a classic though I wouldn't necessarily put it as the greatest sci-fi movie ever. I did enjoy it and I'm glad I've watched it.

original or Director's Cut?

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 24 July 2026 - 11:18 AM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 23 July 2026 - 08:36 PM, said:

So I realised recently that I'm seriously lacking in sci-fi nerd cred because I've never seen Blade Runner. I know, I know. You can put the pitchforks down though because I have remedies that this very evening.

It was good! I can see why it's considered a classic though I wouldn't necessarily put it as the greatest sci-fi movie ever. I did enjoy it and I'm glad I've watched it.

You need to watch BLADE RUNNER 2049 now. An arguably perfect sequel that takes strands of the plot from the first film and pulls them out without taking away any of the first films story. Just a wonderful movie.

and prepare for BLADE RUNNER 2099 on Amazon (starring Michelle Yeoh and the always lovely Hunter Schaffer).

amphibian, on 23 July 2026 - 11:54 PM, said:

To me, the Tears in Rain speech makes the movie significantly better than the book because it's so much pain and passion exploding onto the screen during what is sometimes a kinda dry and confusing bumble through the story.

100% agreed.

my love for Blade Runner runs deep and long, but i admit to having fallen asleep twice during 2049 and DNF'd. I should try again w 2099 in the near future.

[QuickTidal]

QuickTidal, on 24 July 2026 - 12:15 PM, said:

Also speaking of ATLA, this new movie looks incredible!

NOTE: This come out tomorrow on Paramount+ (sigh, I know....annoying streamer).

I would love to see it in one of the theatre screenings but there aren't any in Canada sadly. The question is do I hold off on watching it till my trip for the long plane ride or just watch it right away?! Ahhhhh...we are eating so good with new Avatar material!