Malazan Empire: Advance review of R. Scott Bakker's The Judging Eye - Malazan Empire

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Advance review of R. Scott Bakker's The Judging Eye **Spoilers** School of the Scarlet Spoilers

#61 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 10:18 AM

View PostDolorous Menhir, on Apr 8 2009, 07:30 PM, said:

View PostThe Tyrant Lizard, on Apr 8 2009, 10:19 AM, said:

Bakker's battle scenes are not pathetic. FACT. oh no wait, its just my opinion.


This is my opinion of Bakker's battles (I draw from that big crusade they had in the first three books, where the crusaders fought a series of groups that got in their way). They can mainly been reduced to:

Side A is losing to Side B, after the author has spent little to no time explaining basic details like who Side B are and what they want

Noble X from Side A rides valiantly into the battle

Side A wins, General Y from Side B dies

(Author forgets about Side B for rest of novel)


No idea to what side you are talking about. There are inrithi and there ar fanim, Easilly explained
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#62 User is offline   RangerSG 

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 06:11 AM

I thought the Crusade battles in the second book of the 1st series were impressive. Things were terribly compressed in the final book. His battles aren't SE/Glen Cook quality. But they're believable, intense, and fast-paced. So I can't complain.
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#63 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:23 AM

View PostCause, on Apr 9 2009, 11:18 AM, said:

View PostDolorous Menhir, on Apr 8 2009, 07:30 PM, said:

View PostThe Tyrant Lizard, on Apr 8 2009, 10:19 AM, said:

Bakker's battle scenes are not pathetic. FACT. oh no wait, its just my opinion.


This is my opinion of Bakker's battles (I draw from that big crusade they had in the first three books, where the crusaders fought a series of groups that got in their way). They can mainly been reduced to:

Side A is losing to Side B, after the author has spent little to no time explaining basic details like who Side B are and what they want

Noble X from Side A rides valiantly into the battle

Side A wins, General Y from Side B dies

(Author forgets about Side B for rest of novel)


No idea to what side you are talking about. There are inrithi and there ar fanim, Easilly explained



It wasn't like that at all. It was "Here is a new group of Fanim from random city led by some general you're not going to get any detail about. Wait, they lost, he's dead, and you can forget all about him, those people and that place."
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#64 User is offline   Yellow 

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:37 AM

Maybe you should do a reread, Dolorous :p
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#65 User is offline   Yellow 

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 10:30 AM

For those who may be interested, check out this page (you'll have to scroll down) for an old radio interview with Bakker. It's from around the time that Darkness came out.

He says that TTT was originally going to be called When Sorcerers Sing, which I think would have been a better title :D
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#66 User is offline   Use Of Weapons 

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 02:18 PM

View PostYellow, on Apr 11 2009, 11:30 AM, said:

For those who may be interested, check out this page (you'll have to scroll down) for an old radio interview with Bakker. It's from around the time that Darkness came out.

He says that TTT was originally going to be called When Sorcerers Sing, which I think would have been a better title :D


Umm. For me that calls to mind terrible Channel 5 'documentaries' with titles like 'When Animals Attack!' Much prefer TTT.
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#67 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 07:55 PM

View PostYellow, on Apr 10 2009, 12:37 PM, said:

Maybe you should do a reread, Dolorous :D


I only reread books that I like. It was a struggle to even finish this series, and I only did because I do not like to read two out of a trilogy and then stop.
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#68 User is offline   Yellow 

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 10:23 PM

YOU DON'T LIKE THESE BOOKS???!!!??? I never knew.
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#69 User is offline   Zhuangzi 

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 04:55 PM

View PostYellow, on Apr 12 2009, 03:23 PM, said:

YOU DON'T LIKE THESE BOOKS???!!!??? I never knew.


I just finished chapter 9, the one where
Spoiler
I vomited a little, in the back of my throat.
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#70 User is offline   Use Of Weapons 

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 10:21 AM

Wasn't that a great scene, though? There's not enough of that kind of magic in fantasy these days :unworthy:
It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about nowadays saying things against one, behind one's back, that are absolutely and entirely true.
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#71 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 10:40 AM

View Postjitsukerr, on Apr 16 2009, 11:21 AM, said:

Wasn't that a great scene, though? There's not enough of that kind of magic in fantasy these days :unworthy:


I agree. I miss the sort of ritual magic you find in Norse and Egyptian mythology
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Posted 18 April 2009 - 09:04 PM

View PostZhuangzi, on Apr 14 2009, 11:55 AM, said:

View PostYellow, on Apr 12 2009, 03:23 PM, said:

YOU DON'T LIKE THESE BOOKS???!!!??? I never knew.


I just finished chapter 9, the one where
Spoiler
I vomited a little, in the back of my throat.


Hee hee. Some dark places in Scott's head, there be.

I'm a couple chapters further than that. It's really weird to read a book where none of the characters are particularly sympathetic (maybe Sorweel, I guess). But somehow he manages to keep it interesting. I'm glad we're learning more about the Nonmen and their history.

I do have one big beef with the book though - everyone seems to be wanting to know more about Kellhus suddenly, nineteen years into his rule. I just think people would have gotten a little more interested a little sooner. Narratively, I understand the need for such a gap, but it plays a tad false. Like how in Star Wars you have to believe that people in a galaxy with hyperdrives and the Force are simultaneously credulous dolts.
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#73 User is offline   Zhuangzi 

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 06:48 PM

Finally just finished this book. I use to read much faster, but it seems the older I get, the less time I have to read...

My final Judgement on the Judging Eye - amazing. Everything's already been said, about how its more streamlined, more concentrated then the previous books, but its still just as interesting and raises just as many questions as answers.

Spoiler


Any thoughts?
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#74 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 01:33 PM

Completely off topic but this has been fascinating me, how would the regular non-magical Dunyain interact with if they ever met a Segulah? They can't read their face's because the Segulah wear masks. And would the Dunyain know not to stare too long at a Segulah. Would the Dunyain still be able to perfrom their domination mojo? Not asking in a "versus" kind of way but I guess that would be the only way that Kelhus (in the absense of magic) or some other Dunyain dominate the Segulah due to their rigid duelling structure.
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Posted 23 April 2009 - 08:00 AM

First of all, disclaimer: I haven't read this thread all the way back because I am still avoiding spoilers much as I can...

However, I completely agree with DM's view of how Bakker writes battles from a little earlier in the thread. There were at least a couple of battles I remember that qualify as the targets of DM's ire in TWF and TTT...

Coming to The Judging Eye... started last night on the UK MMPB, and about 150 pages in (
Spoiler
) I am extremely happy that thingsare moving at some clip and the introspection/ philosophizing is down. I was happy to see how Kellhus is being depicted... that scene where he first appears (in person) is fantabulous.

That said, I do have one question:

In the "What has come before" (thus not qualifying this as a spoiler) Bakker mentions that Kellhus confronted his father's 1000-fold thought, and went mad. Now this was not my impression at the end of the first trilogy. Did anyone else realize he had gone mad (meaning I read but didn't understand the first trilogy fully) or do we assume this happens in the interregnum between series?
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#76 User is offline   Yellow 

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:10 PM

I posted my thoughts about the "what came before" section somewhere above. Unless it was on a different forum (in which case I'll go get it from there, cos it kicked ass :D).

Basically, my view is that section describes the past from the narrative's POV, and should not be taken as gospel.

This post has been edited by Yellow: 23 April 2009 - 06:12 PM

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#77 User is offline   Yellow 

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:11 PM

Here it is :p

View PostYellow, on Mar 15 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

The following is answering the above post, but I can't be arsed with the silly black spoiler tags. So...


**SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER**


I think the "what came before" bit is not meant to be taken literally. I might be wrong, but it seems to tell events almost from the narrative's point of view.

It talks of Fane:

Quote

Fane, the self-proclaimed Prophet of the so-called Solitary God.


But it does not state whether or not Fane was truly what he claimed to be. In fact, this section is written almost from the POV of the Inrithi, since that is the subject being dealt with at the time. The language used to describe Fane (i.e. "self-proclaimed") and his Solitary God ("so-called") is the kind of language a sceptical Inrithi would use (without the swear words).

Other sections deal with events from other points of view as well. When it says that Kellhus went mad, this section is being told from Moenghus's narrative, and of course that was the exact conclusion that Mo came to when he met Kellhus: that he went mad. But this is still up for grabs in the main text. We don't know.

The part about Cnauir is also ambiguous, because it is told not from Cnauir's POV, but actually from something close to Kellhus's POV.

Quote

But he had made one mistake. He had allowed Cnauir urs Skiotha, a Scylvendi chieftain who had accompanied him on his trek to the Three Seas, to learn too much of his true nature. Before his death, the barbarian revealed these truths to Drusas Achamian, who had harboured heart-breaking suspicions of his own.


Now, it is completely ambiguous in TTT whether Cnauir died or not - he says just before the end that he plans to create one last swazond, at his throat, but he doesn't actually do it before the scene blacks out. In fact, he sees Serwe's/the skin spy's face, just as Mo's last sorcerous light disappears. I think it entirely possible that the Consult, who had been fucking with his head for the entire book, would use Serwe's face to keep him on-track, doing whatever they wanted of him.

However, what seems to be clear is that none of the other characters saw him alive again. They believe him to be dead, and as such the narrative truth is that he is dead. But he might not be.

In my opinion, the "what came before" section is the truth from the narrative's point of view, but not necessarily the absolute truth. It is what the world believes has happened, and should not be taken at face value. I think Bakker could have one or two surprises left yet. Like I say, I might be wrong... in which case the surprise is for me :D

Do I think Kellhus has gone mad? Yeah, probably. But I think it's going to be more complicated than that. The third series of books has not been named because apparently it'd be a massive spoiler. I've long held the suspicion that it will be called "The No-God", as I think this is what is going to happen to Kellhus. The names of the series suggest a progression in Kellhus's position. The Prince of Nothing. The Aspect Emperor. Something higher than aspect-emperor.

If he doesn't become the No-God (and yeah, I have no idea how he would become the No-God... but the similarities between him flying at the end of TTT and the No-God's Whirlwind are very strong), then I have a suspicion that it will be revealed that he is actually divine after all. Maybe the series will be called The One God or somesuch.

But yeah, he's still probably batshit insane. Doesn't mean he's not right, though! :p

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 07:42 PM

View PostZhuangzi, on Apr 21 2009, 08:48 PM, said:

Finally just finished this book. I use to read much faster, but it seems the older I get, the less time I have to read...

My final Judgement on the Judging Eye - amazing. Everything's already been said, about how its more streamlined, more concentrated then the previous books, but its still just as interesting and raises just as many questions as answers.

Spoiler


Any thoughts?


The sranc are geneticall created by the incoroi to serve them in their wars. They along with bashrag and dragons are the weapon races used in the apocolypse. The sranc appear to have non-men faces simply to mock the non-men, or perhaps they are based on non-men DNA. They are not corrupted non-men because they can breed, non-men cant. They have females, all non-men women died from the womb plague. The sranc number in the millions. Non-men in the thousands maybe even only hundreds.
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Posted 26 April 2009 - 01:53 AM

I haven't even read the whole section yet but I'm finding the Moria homage REALLY off-putting (I'm only read up to the part where
Spoiler
). Why ffs would Bakker do this? I was rolling my eyes the minute they said the passes were blocked etc.
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#80 User is offline   Yellow 

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 06:54 PM

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that kind of thing either. Authors should just do their own thing.
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