[McLovin]

Skywalker, on Apr 25 2009, 08:53 PM, said:

I haven't even read the whole section yet but I'm finding the Moria homage REALLY off-putting (I'm only read up to the part where

Spoiler

the Scalpoi entered the black halls

). Why ffs would Bakker do this? I was rolling my eyes the minute they said the passes were blocked etc.

Yeah, the Moria parallel was in my head the whole time. I was waiting for Akka to face a Bashrag on a bridge and scream "YOU...SHALL NOT...PASS!" If something like that had happened, I would have thrown the book across the room.

I finally finished the book, and I'm a tad ambivalent. Some parts of the end I liked, some I didn't. I didn't quite understand

Spoiler

how Mimara holding up the Chorae vanquished/stalled Gin'yursis.

On balance, though, I'm interested enough to read the next installment. Bakker certainly has a unique tone or spin on epic fantasy.

[Aztiel]

So I'm a pretty big fan of Bakker, but I've got a couple of questions I was hoping people could answer.

What exactly was the Thousandfold Thought? It was the actual title of the last book and I have never quite figured out what that is in reference to.

Spoiler

Why would Bakker choose to do a Moria-type underground trek? I'm not saying it was bad, in fact I thought it was the best part of the book - but I would guess most people who read the book will be familiar with the Lord of the Rings, and be unable to avoid comparison.

Now that I think of it, though, every other book in the world has some kind of overland adventure off to someplace, so maybe it is less played out to go under the ground.

[Yellow]

Aztiel, on Apr 26 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

So I'm a pretty big fan of Bakker, but I've got a couple of questions I was hoping people could answer.

What exactly was the Thousandfold Thought? It was the actual title of the last book and I have never quite figured out what that is in reference to.

I still don't know, exactly. Even the people over on the Three Seas forum aren't exactly sure. I think it's something along the lines of viewing a culture (or at least a large body of people) as an expression of an idea. You have factionism (Inrithi, Fanim, whatever), which is simply the extension of a school of thought, and so if you can manipulate that thought, that overriding control of the large-scale mindset, then you can have a truly powerful weapon.

This is the reason for the holy war - to unit the Three Seas under one purpose, to be steered by one thought and one idea. One thought, expressed a thousandfold, for one purpose.

Someone will come and tell me I'm wrong now

Quote

Spoiler

Why would Bakker choose to do a Moria-type underground trek? I'm not saying it was bad, in fact I thought it was the best part of the book - but I would guess most people who read the book will be familiar with the Lord of the Rings, and be unable to avoid comparison.

Now that I think of it, though, every other book in the world has some kind of overland adventure off to someplace, so maybe it is less played out to go under the ground.

In answer to the blacked-out part, I suspect (and many will say I'm wrong), that Bakker planned that scene in his head many, many years ago, probably well before Darkness was written. He was (and is) heavily influenced by Tolkien, and I think once he realised how close that part was to Moria, he consciously decided to make it even more so, as an homage.

[Skywalker]

Ok, so now I've finished the book.

@McLovin - lol @ the "shall not pass", and yeah, I was expecting much the same with either a Wracu or a Bashrag.

Well, now that I'm finished I am nonplussed. I don't have a clear opinion on the book at all (guess I lack a judging eye... heehee!). Or you could say I have a thousandfold opinion.

I absolutely loved the way this book handled Kellhus... I think that was a stroke of genius. I must say though I don't quite see enough evidence of him being insane. I also got a feeling that eight kids is probably too many characters for Bakker to be able to give each a decent treatment. That said, I liked the parts in Momemn with the twins and the crazy kid and the cold sister of theirs. Can't say the same about the three that are with Kellhus on the ordeal - they all felt like photocopies of each other.

I liked the Sorweel POV. Although the construction of his character and story felt a bit like it was prototyped from

Spoiler

Cnauir - but with different brands of angst and fewer daddy issues

Also liked the character of Mimara. Thank god she thinks less voluminously than her mother. That said, I'm with McLovin on this as well...

Spoiler

no idea what happened with the Chorae at the end. Also, the once in a bazillion years judging eye power seemed a bit too cute and convenient

. I don't know how to described it... it had that smarmy feel of a contrived invention/ retcon about it

Liked how Achamian is a grumpy ass in this one... and liked the bits with the Scalpoi and their rules of the slog. Nice stuff. Though I must say "for twenty years I've lived in this cottage" felt contrived and unjustified.

I also grudgingly came to like the Moria bits... although just the fact that they were MORIA bits was distracting. The last chapter or so set there is pure win, I must say. I think this was one of the best action sequences Bakker has written - but it suffered from the same problems that his battles do; I could never keep track of the specifics of the flight of the party - are they in a room, a corridoor, a cavern, what? How many of them are there? Who died? Who the #$%^ is this character that just got a half a paragraph death and why should I care about him?

Also, while the whole sequence was giving me a strong LOTR vibe, I got a very very strong Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn vibe from the character of the

Spoiler

undead or dead or zombiefied or whatever Non-man king wight thingie who might as well be named Ineluki(sp?)

. In general the exposition on the Non-men is making them seem more and more like the fallen Elfs from various books or the Sithi from MST.

So anyway... that's what I thought. It's a good read, tighter than any of the previous volumes in the Prince of Nothing, surprisingly action packed (in particular I was impressed with how far along the Great Ordeal was. No Darkness that comes before type politicking and setup), and with some compelling new and old characters.

What takes away from the book though is that I did not expect a writer of Bakker's calibre to wear his influences on his sleeve like this and stick to cliche when it comes to plot devices. This was made more painful than it really was by the fact that he avoided it so scrupulously in the first series! Finally, no matter how action packed this book is, I don't see how he can finish the story in just two more. I mean Akka basically just got

Spoiler

a clue to the first clue of a riddle at the end, and the Great Ordeal is just getting into the thick of it

Anyway... that's enough of a rant.

@DM - go read this, you know you want to...

@Yellow - On the thousandfold thought, you might be on to something. I always though TTT was about Moenghus seeing that Inrithism and Fanimism could be influenced to become one faith, and that faith could be manipulated into fighting the Consult and preventing the Second Apocalypse. It also had something to do with marrying the Dunyain rational faculties with magic - Moenghus just picked the wrong school or some such and so needed to call/ use Kellhus...

ETA - can someone explain the bit with mimara at the end please?

This post has been edited by Skywalker: 28 April 2009 - 02:11 AM

[Yellow]

Skywalker, on Apr 28 2009, 03:08 AM, said:

Finally, no matter how action packed this book is, I don't see how he can finish the story in just two more.

Aye, I agree. I don't think he plans to, though... if you ask me, something major is going to happen in the next couple of books and the story will take a turn that nobody expects.

Quote

@Yellow - On the thousandfold thought, you might be on to something. I always though TTT was about Moenghus seeing that Inrithism and Fanimism could be influenced to become one faith, and that faith could be manipulated into fighting the Consult and preventing the Second Apocalypse. It also had something to do with marrying the Dunyain rational faculties with magic - Moenghus just picked the wrong school or some such and so needed to call/ use Kellhus...

Yeah, I guess we pretty much agree on this one, at least about how Mo (and Kellhus) decided to express TTT. It's funny how it's still ambiguous though, even after the new series has started

[Dolorous Menhir]

Skywalker, on Apr 28 2009, 03:08 AM, said:

@DM - go read this, you know you want to...

Ha.

[Zhuangzi]

My personal understanding of TTT is that its similar to chaos-theory. Once he achieved TTT, he was able to predict every possible reaction, every possible branch in reality. Sorta like sitting at a chess board and being able to defeat your opponent before you move even one piece.

And the thing with Mimara at the end - obviously will get explained later, but it must be a direct correlation between her Judging Eye and the Chorae she picked up in the Black Halls. Bakker hasn't actually said what Chorae are other than "tears of the God." For all we know, there actually is some type of divine aspect to these pieces of rock.

[Abyss]

So i broke and got this. Halfway thru now, totally enjoying it.

- Abyss, avoiding spoilers.

[Yellow]

Zhuangzi, on May 8 2009, 06:19 PM, said:

My personal understanding of TTT is that its similar to chaos-theory. Once he achieved TTT, he was able to predict every possible reaction, every possible branch in reality. Sorta like sitting at a chess board and being able to defeat your opponent before you move even one piece.

And the thing with Mimara at the end - obviously will get explained later, but it must be a direct correlation between her Judging Eye and the Chorae she picked up in the Black Halls. Bakker hasn't actually said what Chorae are other than "tears of the God." For all we know, there actually is some type of divine aspect to these pieces of rock.

I don't believe Kellhus can predict every possible reaction/branch. He grasped TTT at the end of TWP, and I don't think there's any evidence in TTT that he could do those things.

As to the second thing... it's definitely an interesting aspect and I hope Bakker expands on it. From what I remember (which is pretty sketchy), the chorae may have tomething to do with Aporific sorcery, which is all about contradictions (whereas for example Anagogic and Gnostic sorcery are all about analogy and abstractions, respectively). Whatever that means.

[Abyss]

Done. Liked. Bakker isn't going to displace SE and other 'buy hb upon release' authors on my list, but the dude can write an interesting story.

Akka, Mimara and the Skin Eaters were without doubt the most interesting storyline and that finale was great.

Spoiler

Whatever happened with Mimara was confusing as fnck but i suspect that was Bakker's point. There is some link between her being an unrealized witch, possessing the Judging Eye and having looked into the chorae, but i suspect we're not going to get a fast or simple explanation in the next book.

Cleric was great, tho i tend to agree with the above post that the Nonmen are treading deep into the elf zone as we learn more about them.

I enjoyed the Sorweel storyline - his perspective on the Ordeal really drove home how massive and impressive the whole thing was, and despite that, how vulnerable it actually is.

The Esmi storyline was interesting. Her self doubt and other issues got a bit tedious now and then but the fact that Kelhuss trusts her to manage the Empire and she actually seems to merit that trust was a nice build on her character from the first series.

I thought Kelhomas was very well written as a sociopathic nut job kid assassin. I like how all of Kellhus' kids are a collection of head cases. Each was distinct with their own issues and none were even slightly sympathetic but very readable even so.

Spoiler

There is something truly twisted about how Kellhus has assimilated Cnauir's son as his own.

So, a solid read and i'm on board for the rest of the series.

Bakk'er writing has improved - this was a much tighter book that the previous three. Some parts could have been clearer, but overall i enjoyed.

My understanding of what TTT is is that it's the ability to calculate every possibility and conclude at the most likely course of events. It was how Kellhus' father assembled the plan to have Maithanet call for a Holy War in order to give Kellhus the ability to reach him.


- Abyss, folds laundry.

[Zhuangzi]

Abyss, on May 11 2009, 08:28 AM, said:

My understanding of what TTT is is that it's the ability to calculate every possibility and conclude at the most likely course of events. It was how Kellhus' father assembled the plan to have Maithanet call for a Holy War in order to give Kellhus the ability to reach him.
- Abyss, folds laundry.

see, Abyss agrees with me.

[Yellow]

Then you're both wrong

The probability trance already gives Dunyain the ability to calculate possibilities and determine the course of events. Kellhus is not all-knowing in TTT, so the Thought itself doesn't give him that ability.

[Skywalker]

I second yellow...

TTT was about merging Inrithism and Fanism and pitting the combination against the Consult with the full power of Dunyain logic and Mandate sorcery at hand.

[Ammanas]

Ok, I'm going to toss in my thirty cents. Bakker elevates epic fantasy on a few levels.

1) the philosophy in Bakker's is more interesting than anything any author I've ever read has produced. (revealed in the Dunyain's/Kellhus thoughts over the course of the series

2) Bakker is the FIRST to come up with a consistent and comprehensible magic system. I much prefer his explanation of cants and the differences between the schools than SE's warrens or WoT's "channeling" or other series "wizard carries a staff and just mutters a spell." Kellhus' explanation of the Cishaurim to Achamian was priceless.

3) Unlike SE, I like how Bakker has established a clear, undisputed hierarchy of power in his world. Kellhus is way beyond anyone, period. SE tries to do it with Rake but fails. This is my only beef with SE. Too many traces of reality shows in character confrontations. No, no Kallor is bad. Oh wait, Dassem is the baddest swordsman alive. Hang on, Icarium has been spotted and he's angry. Sigh, give me one more moment-here comes the Son of Darkness--Hood's balls, he is veering and he has picked up Anaster. WAIT, he has to drop Anaster cause Anaster is poisoning him? Blah, blah, blah.

4) Kellhus is the single most interesting character in the history of fantasy. His methods of acquiring power and maintaining control are questionable. We see he has gambled a great deal on the success of the Great Ordeal, will it pay off? He, like his father, encountered magic that they didn't believe existed and adapted to that reality far better than Moenghus. This lends a lot of credence to his claim "he is more than Dunyain." Personally, I can't wait to see what he turns out to be---

Bakker seems to be setting the stage for Kellhus to be overthrown by the Yatwer followers or even Achamian's discovering Kellhus is not divine after speaking to Mimara about the Mark. However, at the end of TTT, he tells informs Achamian "you will kneel when you next come before me." So I'm half convinced Kellhus has anticipated all these wrinkles and there are no worries.

Where does SE outshine Bakker?

Sheer scope and historical depth of world
SE has no peer when it comes to interweaving relationships, entities and, individuals.

[Cause]

The Esmi storyline was interesting. Her self doubt and other issues got a bit tedious now and then but the fact that Kelhuss trusts her to manage the Empire and she actually seems to merit that trust was a nice build on her character from the first series.

I interpreted it differently. I dont know why but I got the impression Kellhus being Kellhus knew she was weak, knew leavng would crack the empire ifhe left her in charge but he did it anyway. He wants something to come from i all. A rebellion put down might strenghten his hold who knows.

[Abyss]

I think it unlikely but i totally love the theory that Kellhus left Esmi in charge specifically because everything would crash and burn if he did. If he didn't do the teleport thing to show up and intimidate the earth mother priestess, i would have been inclined to agree with you.

Unless of course he wants the rebellion to draw the resistance into the open and then CRUSH THEM ALL.

- Abyss, ...trusts in SB, SB is good, SB is great...

[Morgoth]

Abyss, on May 19 2009, 07:16 PM, said:

I think it unlikely but i totally love the theory that Kellhus left Esmi in charge specifically because everything would crash and burn if he did. If he didn't do the teleport thing to show up and intimidate the earth mother priestess, i would have been inclined to agree with you.

Unless of course he wants the rebellion to draw the resistance into the open and then CRUSH THEM ALL.

- Abyss, ...trusts in SB, SB is good, SB is great...

I actually interpreted his teleportation thing as the first sign that he's begining to make mistakes, tiny though they may be at this time. If he had planned things perfectly, it would never have been necessary for him to exhaust himself as he did by teleporting back. Not to mention the attack on that northern city, which seemed somewhat poorly executed. If you read the scene where he comes for Serwel, Kelhus is described to have lines of salt on his face which shows he had more than one almost lethal encounter with the tears of god.

[Abyss]

But that city was known for its 'chorae hoard', so it follows they would have tried to use them for defence.

The whole 'near-miss with a chorae causes salt scars' never happened in the first trilogy, did it?

- Abyss, peppery.

[Yellow]

Not with Kelhus, but with others. Cnaiur held a chorae over Achamian and salted up his nipple pretty good.

[Zhuangzi]

Salted nipple happens to be a Filipino delicacy... num num num