[Abyss]

Did anyone else have an 'ew' reaction at Akka getting his freak on with Mimasa?

- Abyss, ....ew....

[Darkwatch]

Abyss, on May 20 2009, 05:59 PM, said:

But that city was known for its 'chorae hoard', so it follows they would have tried to use them for defence.

The whole 'near-miss with a chorae causes salt scars' never happened in the first trilogy, did it?

- Abyss, peppery.

Well considering the fact that in the first series we never saw any near misses while the sorcerer was canting, whereas this time we do. I'm guessing that while you're canting you're more of an existential target for the chorae.

Abyss, on May 27 2009, 11:23 AM, said:

Did anyone else have an 'ew' reaction at Akka getting his freak on with Mimasa?

- Abyss, ....ew....

Well other than the fact that it was completely predictable, which is my only disapointment with the book, it's freaky because of what she thinks and hopes prior to that (and she believed it completely) and gets creepier after when they start acting like

Spoiler

father and daughter

.
So yes it was a massive "Ew" moment.

[Abyss]

Darkwatch, on May 29 2009, 11:55 AM, said:

...

Abyss, on May 27 2009, 11:23 AM, said:

Did anyone else have an 'ew' reaction at Akka getting his freak on with Mimasa?

- Abyss, ....ew....

Well other than the fact that it was completely predictable, which is my only disapointment with the book, it's freaky because of what she thinks and hopes prior to that (and she believed it completely) and gets creepier after when they start acting like

Spoiler

father and daughter

.
So yes it was a massive "Ew" moment.

Yeah, thoroughly predictable but i was hoping against hope that Bakker wouldn't go there for that reason, plus the sheer ick-factor.

Then again, in a book that has black sranc jizz hitting the ground in the first three pages or so nothing should really come as a surprise (pun intended but still icky).

relatedly, did i miss something or did the scalphunter in the prologue not appear again (at least overtly) in the book?

- Abyss, notes 'Ick-factor' is great title for a reality tv show...

[Cause]

Akka states early in the series that some nonmen mages could not even be in the same room as a chorae without starting to salt. The stronger your mark the greater your vunrability

[amphibian]

My theories:

The bit with Mimara and the chorae has something to do with her assuming Guardianship - perhaps for the world against Hell or for Non-Men against the world.

Cleric is the greatest of all Non-Men become Erratic (the king who led the Five Mansions against the No-God). The "cousin" line clinched it for me.

Mimara's somehow connected to a true God through the chorae and in the next books we'll finally understand how they were made and what power lies behind them. Perhaps the magic that Achamanian and all the others is based in Hell?

Seswatha's dreams are have second or third layers to them that are supposed to come out as things approach... convergence? Achamanian is the only person who's simultaneously dreaming and aware of the truth to most things going on in the world and thus is able to get to Ishual.

Kelhus is creating a slow rebellion so after the deal with the No-God, he can disappear and go do whatever he wants - instead of being Aspect-Emperor.

My questions:

Why is Moenghus "mad"?

What's wrong with Kelhus that some of these kids are coming out damaged? Is he genetically close to Non-Men or something? Are the Consult poisoning Esmi?

If Cleric is the Non-Men King, what was his betrayal?

Heron Spear - who gets it and who wields it?

This post has been edited by amphibian: 10 June 2009 - 09:04 PM

[Darkwatch]

amphibian, on Jun 10 2009, 04:55 PM, said:

My theories:
Mimara's somehow connected to a true God through the chorae and in the next books we'll finally understand how they were made and what power lies behind them. Perhaps the magic that Achamanian and all the others is based in Hell?

Considering the following:
-The Chorae were created by a renegade group of non-men allied with the Inchoroi to counter the Non-man sorcerers.
-The power does not seem to be drawn from hell for several reasons.
1. Any old Non-man sorcerer would be a walking Topos.
2. The cishaurim carry no mark and we have no idea what the judging eye says of them.
3. Demons are vulnerable to it
4. It is infact the act of almost making real. We learn in the book that "Gods make real" and humans are only supposed "To reflect". Making sorcery a crime of hubris rather than drawing on hell power.
5. Sorcery in Bakker's world has never had any sense of channeling to it.
6. If it's drawn from hell then Daimotics (demonology) would have been more widespread than the Scarlet Spires (pre Holy War)
7. If it is channeling from the Outside how come Akka's power did not increase in Cil-Aujas?

amphibian, on Jun 10 2009, 04:55 PM, said:

My questions:

What's wrong with Kelhus that some of these kids are coming out damaged? Is he genetically close to Non-Men or something? Are the Consult poisoning Esmi?

Heron Spear - who gets it and who wields it?

Nothing is wrong with Kellhus and nothing is wrong with Esmi (since the other concubines also bore nameless ones).
The problem is the "blood" (genetics).
Kellhus is the result of a 2000 year old breading program among humans. As breeding techniques have shown us, new breeds can appear quickly enough through artificial selection. And if the goal was a superior human than "evolution" may have been accelerated. Esmi has always been shown as intelligent (genetically more compatible), hence why Kellhus chose her and why only she managed to bare "proper" offspring. Moenghus is mad because his mother was Serwe and she was an idiot.
Think of it as a modern Homo Sapiens Sapiens trying to breed with an Archaic Homo Sapiens (the one that branched off into us an Neanderthals).

The Heron Spear remains a wild variable.

[amphibian]

Darkwatch, on Jun 17 2009, 12:59 AM, said:

Nothing is wrong with Kellhus and nothing is wrong with Esmi (since the other concubines also bore nameless ones).
The problem is the "blood" (genetics).
Kellhus is the result of a 2000 year old breading program among humans. As breeding techniques have shown us, new breeds can appear quickly enough through artificial selection. And if the goal was a superior human than "evolution" may have been accelerated. Esmi has always been shown as intelligent (genetically more compatible), hence why Kellhus chose her and why only she managed to bare "proper" offspring. Moenghus is mad because his mother was Serwe and she was an idiot.
Think of it as a modern Homo Sapiens Sapiens trying to breed with an Archaic Homo Sapiens (the one that branched off into us an Neanderthals).

I speculate that a side effect of the breeding program is that the Anasurimbor are genetically closer to non-Men than regular humans.

Good points on the sorcery stuff. Is Hell the Outside or are they separate locales?

[Cause]

I dont have that view point at all. The Dunyain monks have been breeding for two thousand years from a base stock of a few hundred people. They are pretty inbred. Inbreeding as we all know can lead to the accumulation of recessive traits that can lead to horrible mutations, and in the case of the dunyain by killing the unworthy it has also led to super men. However it shows that while Kellhus is a superman his genes are contaminated with the accumulation of all those bad genetic traits due to inbreeding. Sometimes he gets a healthy child, sometimes a mutant.

The only absurd thing is why esmenet can have his children but nobody else can. Unless thats just because she has the most.

[Darkwatch]

amphibian, on Jun 17 2009, 02:53 PM, said:

I speculate that a side effect of the breeding program is that the Anasurimbor are genetically closer to non-Men than regular humans.

Good points on the sorcery stuff. Is Hell the Outside or are they separate locales?

I don't think the Non-Men are superior humans since they predate us by a long shot.

The outside and hell are the same, just the further you go into the outside the more hellish it is.

Cause, on Jun 17 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

I dont have that view point at all. The Dunyain monks have been breeding for two thousand years from a base stock of a few hundred people. They are pretty inbred. Inbreeding as we all know can lead to the accumulation of recessive traits that can lead to horrible mutations, and in the case of the dunyain by killing the unworthy it has also led to super men. However it shows that while Kellhus is a superman his genes are contaminated with the accumulation of all those bad genetic traits due to inbreeding. Sometimes he gets a healthy child, sometimes a mutant.

The only absurd thing is why esmenet can have his children but nobody else can. Unless thats just because she has the most.

That's an excellent theory on the cause of mutation.
The reason Esmi can have relatively normal children is the fact that she is smart, and I'm guessing this is Bakker's hint to suggest her genes are more advanced than otehrs making her more compatible with Kellhus.

[amphibian]

Darkwatch, on Jun 17 2009, 05:49 PM, said:

I don't think the Non-Men are superior humans since they predate us by a long shot.

What I'm saying is that humans have Non-Men traits and the Anasurimbor have been breeding for those traits. However, if that breeding is purposeful, then their disregard for sorcery is truly odd in that hypothetical context. If it is unknowingly, then it's still strange, but not as strange as discarding a potentially vast source of power, when their mission presumably is to preserve Celmomas's line and save the world from the Inchoroi.

Perhaps they truly wanted to hide until the time came and then power up with magic in a generation or two.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 17 June 2009 - 10:59 PM

[pat5150]

Synopsis for The White-Luck Warrior from Penguin Canada here.

Patrick

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Great. I hope this means it will come out soon. Although I do hope that the ruins of Sauglish are not another Cil-Aujas or this could become repetitive.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 27 March 2010 - 09:42 PM

[Veilside]

amphibian, on 10 June 2009 - 08:55 PM, said:

What's wrong with Kelhus that some of these kids are coming out damaged? Is he genetically close to Non-Men or something? Are the Consult poisoning Esmi?

His blood line is essentially the same as that of Norfolk.
I.e. He's hugely inbred.

[Yellow]

This thread on Westeros (scroll down to about post 60) has a theory about lead poisoning being the cause of the fertility problems.

That theory doesn't cut it for me, because it smacks of clutching at straws, however that thread has some cracking discussion in general and I wouldn't be too suprised to be proved wrong. Personally I think it's an inbreeding/genetic thing. The Dunyain know a thing or two about genetic abnormalities, it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that Kelhus is aware of how to spot genetically-viable wives. Meh.

I can't wait for the rest of this series.

Oh, and Pat, do you have anything to add to the discussion, other than "come visit my website"?

[Abyss]

Yellow, on 05 April 2010 - 09:05 PM, said:

... it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that Kelhus is aware of how to spot genetically-viable wives. ...

Or on the other hand, he doesn't know how, and such women are extremely rare, and Esmi is the only one he's found so far, tho not for lack of trying.

Kelhus is the result of generations of breeding. Apparently this means his genes can't 'work' with just anyone.

[Yellow]

I think we're probably in agreement about that. Kellhus throughout the first series definitely had his eye on the prize heffers, if you get my drift. Whether he consciously is looking for something specific or whether he is just generally looking for a good mate, I think it's unsurprising the way it turns out (i.e. many mutants with Esmi, complete failures with others).

[Werthead]

Bakker reports that he has finished The White Luck Warrior and that, thankfully, the current cover is a stand-in. The book looks certain now to hit its April 2011 publication date and should clock in around 600 pages, or 150-200 pages longer than The Judging Eye. He has also changed the title of Book 3 from The Horns of Golgotterath to The Unholy Consult, which I must admit I think is a weaker title.

He is also more certain that the third sub-series will apparently be a duology, not a trilogy.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Excellent news but I have to agree with you, Wert, The Unholy Consult is a horrible title. I hope he changes his mind and reverts to the older one.

[amphibian]

He's got time to change it. However, the phrase "unholy Consult" seems like he's been saying it all along in the series. It's not coming out of nowhere.

[Use Of Weapons]

I like the new title. Not a fan of titles of the form 'The X of Y'.