[Jurble]

I still Laseen is a pretty terrible Empress. I mean, we know she isn't retarded at this point. Outlawing Onearm's Host was a ploy, as is probably outlawing the BH's - it's so that any action they took was not seen as given Imperial sanction.

But she still ran the Empire into the ground. Yeah, the Old Guard had to go, the Emperor and Dancer were Gods to those guys, and Laseen's assassination of them meant that they'd never accept her rule. Regardless of the fact that Kellanved and Dancer didn't actually care about the Empire, it was just one step in their plot for Ascendancy. The Old Guard didn't care, or wouldn't even listen to that sort of reason. So they had to go. But, Laseen's plan for bringing the Old Guard out? Running the Empire into the ground until the Old Guard thought they could overthrow her. That's a god damn stupid plan. The Empire is in terrible shape. Thousands died in a Civil War, Seven Cities erupted in a bloody rebellion, the campaign in Korel is a failure, the Genabackis campaigns are still major moneysink. Itko Kan also showed that while it's been under Imperial rule for a century, was able to reform its old government in a matter of days. That's terrible. It implies that the Kanese were waiting for this sort of situation for a century. The fact that parts of the Empire on Quon actually did revert back to nation-states implies that integration isn't as far along as it should be. Moreover, Laseen let Mallick corrupt over half the god damn Claw. And she did it knowingly. Like wtf? I would be okay if she hadn't known, but she knew it existed, and she knew it was Mallick, she had Topper in the Imperial Warren trying to sabotage them, but she should have made it more brutal and obvious.


That's the problem I see, Laseen still thought like a spy and assassin. But she was the Empress, she should have done everything in the day-light as a message, but instead she thought she could keep this shit to the shadows.


Also, if it were Sorry that Topper shot with KG and then preserved, wtf would she be doing in the Imperial Warren anyway?

This post has been edited by Jurble: 02 July 2010 - 07:47 PM

[Abyss]

Jurble, on 02 July 2010 - 07:45 PM, said:

... if it were Sorry that Topper shot with KG and then preserved, wtf would she be doing in the Imperial Warren anyway?

It wasn't Sorry. It was an unamed Claw who may have been Dancer's daughter.


So The Perpetual ReRead has reached RCG, and i'm just a bit in but i'm blanking... does anyone recall if we ever found out WHY Hood's agent warned Possum about the Old Guard at the beginning?


- Abyss, uncertain.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Abyss, on 12 July 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

Jurble, on 02 July 2010 - 07:45 PM, said:

... if it were Sorry that Topper shot with KG and then preserved, wtf would she be doing in the Imperial Warren anyway?

It wasn't Sorry. It was an unamed Claw who may have been Dancer's daughter.


So The Perpetual ReRead has reached RCG, and i'm just a bit in but i'm blanking... does anyone recall if we ever found out WHY Hood's agent warned Possum about the Old Guard at the beginning?


- Abyss, uncertain.

Did they warn specifically about the Old Guard, or was it more of a warning about the old guard and the Crimson Guard? Because Hood is opposed to the Crippled God and he would have known that Skinner and Cowl had a connection with him. Stands to reason he wouldn't want them gaining as powerful a tool as the Malazan Empire.



Edit: I just realized I don't know if they always had a connection to the Crippled God or if it just happened at the end of the book.

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 12 July 2010 - 05:55 PM

[Abyss]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 12 July 2010 - 05:55 PM, said:

...Did they warn specifically about the Old Guard, or was it more of a warning about the old guard and the Crimson Guard? ...

The severed headskull says something like 'they're coming, the old ones... here's one now' and then Laseen shows up. It could be a broader warning but i didn't take it that way at the time.

At the end Skinner and the CG discuss that the CG has been hovering in the background, but the link is only made official at that point, so there may be something to your theory.

[Ammanas]

Abyss, on 12 July 2010 - 08:43 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 12 July 2010 - 05:55 PM, said:

...Did they warn specifically about the Old Guard, or was it more of a warning about the old guard and the Crimson Guard? ...

The severed headskull says something like 'they're coming, the old ones... here's one now' and then Laseen shows up. It could be a broader warning but i didn't take it that way at the time.

At the end Skinner and the CG discuss that the CG has been hovering in the background, but the link is only made official at that point, so there may be something to your theory.

What indications are there that the woman was Dancer's daughter?

[Abyss]

Abyss, on 12 July 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

Jurble, on 02 July 2010 - 07:45 PM, said:

... if it were Sorry that Topper shot with KG and then preserved, wtf would she be doing in the Imperial Warren anyway?

It wasn't Sorry. It was an unamed Claw who may have been Dancer's daughter...

Ammanas, on 12 July 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

What indications are there that the woman was Dancer's daughter?

Going from utterly imprecise memory, Topperdemallion says something like 'Ah, you're his daughter.'

And while most assumed that Cotillion's comment to Panek in HoC ref'd Apsalar, that's just an assumption.

But that's all i got. This much i'm sure of: it wasn't Apsalar that Tats took out.

[Ammanas]

Abyss, on 13 July 2010 - 01:43 PM, said:

Abyss, on 12 July 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

Jurble, on 02 July 2010 - 07:45 PM, said:

... if it were Sorry that Topper shot with KG and then preserved, wtf would she be doing in the Imperial Warren anyway?

It wasn't Sorry. It was an unamed Claw who may have been Dancer's daughter...

Ammanas, on 12 July 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

What indications are there that the woman was Dancer's daughter?

Going from utterly imprecise memory, Topperdemallion says something like 'Ah, you're his daughter.'

And while most assumed that Cotillion's comment to Panek in HoC ref'd Apsalar, that's just an assumption.

But that's all i got. This much i'm sure of: it wasn't Apsalar that Tats took out.

I don't believe your memory is imprecise. My crazy theory is it was Amaron's daughter but since you ref'd the comment to Panek I'm no longer quite so sure. Maybe the Rope did have a biological daughter we don't know about. I do agree the girl Topper killed was most certainly not Apsalar. She has demonstrated far more skill and wariness than the slain girl. Also, it seemed ST gave her a final release from service after she shadow danced through 300 claws.

I'd like to see what would happen if Yil found out Apsalar killed Pearl---be cool to see the pair shadowdance against each other.

[ShadowRaven]

I personally believe it is Apsalar. However, she says precisely that "my father taught me" which seems uncharacteristic of Apsalar.

Here is a short quote from the scene (p. 316 in my version) just after Tatterdemallion and the girl see (what I assume to be) the skykeeps:

Quote

She nodded. He bowed his agreement, but instead of straightening he rolled forward, sweeping. The woman cartwheeled aside. They stood, facing one another, he astonished, she calculating in her narrowed glance. He did not bother to hide his delight. 'Wonderfully done! It has been a long time since I've seen his style.'

The woman - girl, he corrected himself - gave an elegant bow. 'You recognize it! My father taught me. And you ought not to have revealed your familiarity...'

'It will not matter... shortly'

She bowed again. 'Apologies. Must be off.' Shadows threaded up from the dirt to spin about her like a whirlwind. His surprise lasted only an instant; he thrust out both arms and lances of darkness struck the girl throwing her backwards. She lay gasping for air, her ribs shattered, lungs punctured.

He crossed to stand over her.

Still conscious she stared up, her gaze accusing. 'Kurald Galain!' she gasped.

He knelt on his haunches next to her. 'I am sorry.'
'You! But we thought you... you were no...'
'Yes. I know. I am so very sorry. More sorry because I would not have sent someone like you. For, as you see, I've come myself.'

And a bit later on Topper thinks about the fact that 'it is always the best who are sent.'



To me the scene feels like the girl is about to enter the warren of shadow or use shadow in some other way (shadow dance maybe?), but Topper interrupts and completely surprises her by using KG. They don't fight more than that one cartwheel so at least I can't make any concrete evaluation about her fighting skills. The few following lines in the text imply to me that she is surprised that Topper can indeed use KG at all (he is only part Andii after all). And the comment about 'the best who are sent' would certainly indicate Apsalar, for she is certainly one of Shadow's most skilled "servants". There is an easy enough way to rule out Apsalar though, because it says on the previous page (315 in my edition) that the girl regards Topper with 'dark eyes'. I can't remember if Apsalar is ever referred to as having dark eyes or not but I'm sure someone on the forums does.


Don't remember which book this happens in so I'll spoiler it

Spoiler

P.S. I have one other crazy theory if it is not Apsalar. Could it be one of the kids similar to Panek that defend the throne with Kalam and company? Topper would probably be familiar with Kalam's style and he probably trained the children. They might also be able to use the power of shadow. They might be too young to fit the description but it could be possible

[D'rek]

Dark eyes or not, it *could* be Apsalar - the ICE/SE crossover easily explains away little bits like that.

Cotillion does not have any children. Panek asks him if he does and his response is that he has "a daughter of sorts" and in that case he's referring to Apsalar. He doesn't bring up any natural kids so suffice to say we can assume he doesn't have any.

The female assassin's surprise at KG could just as easily be surprise at realizing it is Topper, having only realized it because of the KG (no other human assassins that we know of use it).

Tatterdemalion could evidently be very mistaken about who sent the female assassin and/or whatever her motivations are for being there.

[Abyss]

D, on 15 July 2010 - 04:00 AM, said:

...Cotillion does not have any children. Panek asks him if he does and his response is that he has "a daughter of sorts" and in that case he's referring to Apsalar. He doesn't bring up any natural kids so suffice to say we can assume he doesn't have any. ...

Also, there are no Hounds of Light.

[amphibian]

ShadowRaven, on 14 July 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

P.S. I have one other crazy theory if it is not Apsalar. Could it be one of the kids similar to Panek that defend the throne with Kalam and company? Topper would probably be familiar with Kalam's style and he probably trained the children. They might also be able to use the power of shadow. They might be too young to fit the description but it could be possible

Kalam's style is to take the long knives and then stab them through whoever's inside his Circle of Death. He doesn't bother with the cartwheels and unique evasive tactics like that. The children aren't old enough to be more than a last ditch effort and they gave so much for the defense of the throne that I doubt any would be sent on a dangerous scouting mission when a shadow demon would do quite nicely.

I have a feeling that the girl is either Ameron's daughter or some unknown, but highly ranked and now dead Claw's daughter. Topper implies that she's been sent by the people who've assumed leadership of the Claw in his absence. Plus Apsalar has most of Cotillon's memories and he'd almost certainly have known that Topper was half Andii/used some Kurald Galain; she wouldn't have been surprised at the usage of it.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 15 July 2010 - 05:02 AM, said:

...Plus Apsalar has most of Cotillon's memories and he'd almost certainly have known that Topper was half Andii/used some Kurald Galain; she wouldn't have been surprised at the usage of it.

Good point this.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 15 July 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

amphibian, on 15 July 2010 - 05:02 AM, said:

...Plus Apsalar has most of Cotillon's memories and he'd almost certainly have known that Topper was half Andii/used some Kurald Galain; she wouldn't have been surprised at the usage of it.

Good point this.

She would be if she didn't realize it was Topper and then she was not so much surprised at KG but surprised that it was Topper because his usage of KG made her piece it together.

Hence the "You! But we thought you... you were no..."

This post has been edited by D'rek: 15 July 2010 - 05:00 PM

[Abyss]

Even allowing for the SE to ICE conversion, i can't see Apsalar stopping to chat instead of just stabbing him repeatedly. She has zero reason to chat with a Clawmaster.

And Cotillion's comment in HoC was WIDE open. We only assume he meant Apsalar. He hardly had a reason to disclose his full genetic history to Panek.

[Ammanas]

Abyss, on 15 July 2010 - 05:44 PM, said:

Even allowing for the SE to ICE conversion, i can't see Apsalar stopping to chat instead of just stabbing him repeatedly. She has zero reason to chat with a Clawmaster.

And Cotillion's comment in HoC was WIDE open. We only assume he meant Apsalar. He hardly had a reason to disclose his full genetic history to Panek.

Got to agree with that first point. Throughout the series, Apsalar hasn't done much cartwheeling and chatting. Given her possible Ascendant status, it seems unlikely that a single attack from a half-Andii would completely disable her.

Apart from Topper's comments, the girl seemed more like a spy than a full blown assassin.

Last point about Cot's having a daughter---didn't Crust think Apsalar was Cot's daughter when they met? Why would he think that unless there was a daughter--surely Apsalar doesn't resemble Cot.

[Sinisdar Toste]

he thinks it because apsalars first words to him are "dancer says hello"

[TheSurvivor]

After what happened in BH I said to myself Laseen would never ever recover in my eyes. Then I read RCG. How ICE made her into like the ultimate anti-hero of the Malazan universe left me awe-struck. Then she died and i was like "...". I'm not afraid to say that WJ's death didn't really startle me but when Laseen died I just paused and stared for a good ten minutes and finally shouted "NO!" Just wanted to get that off my chest.

[Abyss]

TheSurvivor, on 16 July 2010 - 03:19 AM, said:

...WJ's death didn't really startle me but when Laseen died I just paused and stared for a good ten minutes and finally shouted "NO!" Just wanted to get that off my chest.

Yeah, i think it's because WJ practically screams 'noble leader heroic sacrifice moment' from about halfway through MoI even tho you really hope not. I mean, he's got the true love thing going with Korlat and the epic friendship with Rake and he's redeemed from his demotion and they're kicking Pannion ass and everyone loves him... he's like the stereotypical police officer six days from retirement and a long cruise around the world... you KNOW, deep in your bookbones, that something aweful is likely to happen.

On the other hand, Laseen is well, Laseen, and while she's facekicking Avowed to death periodically through the book, she's still the asshole who allowed the Wickan pogrom to happen, and Dom and Rel to subvert the Empire, and sure she takes over the loyalist army but it's mostly by feeding them to Ryllandaras which is kind of nasty... ICE only really crystalizes just how brilliant she is (yes, yes, i know some of you don't agree with this, we've talked about it before no need to reiterate) right at the end with Possum's revelation that she planned EVERYTHING... from defeating and taking over the loyalists to using them against the Crimson Guard, to having Topper ready to jump in when they're fighting Cowl... and the victory is more or less total and wow Laseen doesn't suck after all and HOLY FUCK DID HE JUST KILL HER HE DID HE FUCKING DID. Anyhow it worked for me.


- Abyss, was impressed.

[HiddenOne]

Ammanas, on 14 July 2010 - 01:43 AM, said:

I'd like to see what would happen if Yil found out Apsalar killed Pearl---be cool to see the pair shadowdance against each other.

I'm afraid that Lostara Yil would be back with Pearl in a very short time indeed.


Also, Apsalar would not have a faceoff w/ Tatterd, he would simply be surprised to find himself dead on the ground as she walked calmly away, whistling a tune.

This post has been edited by HiddenOne: 17 July 2010 - 02:17 PM

[Jurble]

HiddenOne, on 17 July 2010 - 02:15 PM, said:

Also, Apsalar would not have a faceoff w/ Tatterd, he would simply be surprised to find himself dead on the ground as she walked calmly away, whistling a tune.

You're underestimating Topper and overestimating Apsalar. Cotillion the God could take Topper, sure. But Dancer, the mortal assassin, who's the closest in skill to Apsalar? He was the best of the best, but Topper is a Clawmaster, and he's not a Pearl or a Possum. He's a real-deal Clawmaster. Surly's 2nd-in-command. Apsalar would be match against Topper. And if she didn't realize she were fighting Topper, and he were to shoot her with KG laser beams... The man has single-handedly, for possibly a year or more (the timeline would get even worse what with how time moves in a Warren) prevent Mallick Rel's Claw from using the Imperial Warren.

This post has been edited by Jurble: 18 July 2010 - 04:51 AM