[Benji]

Sombra, on Jan 23 2009, 12:32 PM, said:

Abyss, on Jan 22 2009, 05:00 AM, said:

By example, everything he pulled on Promqual practically screamed 'Mokra' and i don't see how that would logically follow as a power one gained by being Jhistal.

Hmmm, I just finished it (loved it too, despite some timeline related questions I'll search the threads about), and I think if Mallick were really that good with Mockra, wouldn't he have sussed out that whole Coil thing?

Unless Coil was better with Mockra... She fooled Possum after all.

[Abyss]

I suppose we could explain it as Coil was High Mokra while for Mallick it's just a talent.

Alternately, maybe Mael's power via the jhistals is just that diverse... the seas are hypnotic, the brain is mostly water, i dunno...

- Abyss, all wet.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Maybe he's just a smooth-talker...he is a lascivious snake after all. I'm sure, though, he has other sorcerous abilities. If the power of Mael was all he had, I bet Mallick would have been a lot more put out.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

It has been a great long while since I have come here. Lo and behold, I found two competing schools of thought concerning ICE's second novel - Angel's highly contentious thread (with some very legitimate concerns) and Abyss' much more congenial take on the book and its place in the published Malazan hierarchy. Though it has now been a few months since I read the book, I would say that I stand firmly in the supporting camp. I knew when I finished RotCG that it was a phenomenal leap up in story-telling from NoK (which, despite the fascinating nature of its content, managed to contain quite a few dry sections for me), and having read through the entirety of this thread, I am reminded of my "first favorite" moment:

The first time I had to put the book down to take a break once I had started reading followed Silk's magical....unveiling. Whatever that was, it was powerful; I had the loopiest grin on my face and I had to close the book after finishing the chapter just to enjoy the moment I had just read through. Those "close the book and take a step back" moments were one of the original attractions of the Malazan series for me, and I was quite pleased by the number of them in this book. I think others have done a great job at listing their favorite moments, and I won't waste any space reiterating that which has already been mentioned.

[fortyseven]

I see the forum has changed again.

I liked it. I agree with a lot of Abyss' points.

Why does the glossary have to spoil the book?

I haven't seen any posts about the inversions of SE stuff or general stuff (comparing the warrens to tribal brotherhoods, questioning/mocking the names/new names of soldiers, the land where the CG found Skinner having (almost) no government but the people are content, older/primitive magic is really more elegant or refine).

I would have liked to see more Havva (after a bath). I thought Sweetgrass was possibly Fener for a bit.

I wonder if Soletaken/D'ivers Zombies would work!?

This post has been edited by fortyseven: 04 October 2009 - 05:40 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

There are plenty of those threads in the RotCG forum, 47. As for zombie Soletaken, may I present the bonecasters?

[fortyseven]

HoosierDaddy, on 04 October 2009 - 05:42 AM, said:

There are plenty of those threads in the RotCG forum, 47. As for zombie Soletaken, may I present the bonecasters?

Oh, could you point some out? I couldn't tell from the titles.

[death tribble]

I have just finished the book and yes there were some real surprises here, Laseen being the biggest one.

The seige was well done and what the defenders felt they had to do to survive.
I liked what the harbour guard did to one of the Avowed. That was really funny. And then when you work out who was killing the Guard in the city with bare hands.
It was nice to see some of the old characters again.
But to get the impact of the book you at least have to read the first five books from Erikson. And Dust of Dreams is my next read.

[Ribald]

I finished RotCG a couple of days back and have looked through the threads here for what other people thought about it because I was disappointed.
Paradoxically I really enjoyed the book, but was still disappointed. I think there are a few reasons for why I was disappointed:

The first is that I approached this as another SE book and found ICE's style to be similar enough to be confused with SE's, but different enough that it appeared either as a poor imitation or just didn't seem to function the right way. This was entirely my own fault as I should have let the book speak for itself rather than impose certain expectations on it. I think ICE did some brilliant things in this novel, but they weren't the way I imagined SE doing them and therefore I felt they were done the wrong way. So instead of appreciating RotCG I ended up feeling let down and disappointed.

I was disappointed in the character of Kyle. As a touchstone character I just felt he was too passive and was simply there for ICE to throw exposition at me. There didn't seem to be any development of him. Sure he had a series of adventures, picks up some new toys and saw some pretty bad ass things... but he never seemed to deepen as a character, he seemed to remain a superficial shell. Again this is my own fault. I wanted Kyle to become someone interesting, rather than function as a witness to events, so it is my own expectation that made me disappointed not ICE's writing.

I was disappointed by Laseen. For a character that has been at the very core of the Malazan world, intricately and infamously involved in the history of the Malazan empire, and who is a power (with a small 'p') in her own right, I was expecting to finally get some insight into her, to her side of things, to her perspective. ICE instead gave me another external view of her, with the occasional glimpse of her character and then proceeds to end her. I felt gutted. The action sequences were breathtaking in places and yet I felt so pissed off that I still know comparatively little about her, her motivations and reasons, or even what she was actually like. I did however get plenty of descriptions of her simple dress sense and commanding authority. Yet once again this was my problem and not ICE's. I wanted more and I am sure he guessed that many readers wanted more and thus her death in that fashion was shocking. I was just a little disappointed in it.

I was disappointed in Ereko's death. Again here was a character I was interested in, have followed through chapter after chapter and he dies like a punk. There is so little narrative emotion tied to his death, the ending of race, it just felt like plot for plot's sake. If he was just going to be punked like that I would have preferred him to at least have done something useful/specific that only he could have done. It just seemed to me to be a wasted opportunity. On the other hand, subverting expectations such as mine is a perfectly valid choice for an author... it doesn't stop me feeling shortchanged. In fact a couple of that character deaths struck me that way.

While the ending was stupendous I found myself saying "If another effing army turns up I am throwing this book across the room". By this point I no longer cared who was fighting whom, why they were fighting or even who was dying, I just wanted it to move on to something else. That isn't to say there weren't some brilliant sequences in there in particular the newly named Sergeant Jumpy, I just felt it went a bit too far. I am sure the majority of people disagree with this, but for me it became a parody of the Battle of the Five Armies, from The Hobbit. But one man's messy war is another man's glorious battle. So again it is not really a criticism of ICE rather that I didn't enjoy that particular narrative decision.

I think it all boils down to the fact that I became confused as to whether or not ICE was writing this way because it is his natural style, or if he was writing this way because that is how SE has written the other books and he was attempting to re-create that. I think as I read more of ICE's books I will like them more, either because he will settle into his own style more fully or I will simply appreciate his take on things. So yes I liked the book, yes I will read the rest as and when they come out, yes I think they will be good, and yes I think I will enjoy the later ones more, but I will remain dissatisfied with RotCG. Then again you can't please all the people all the time.

[beru]

i allways saw laseen to be as cold or colder than Tavore (who btw is so cold she would probably kill 1000 children in the name of justice or to save 1001 childrern or somusuch) and therefore thoght she wasent going to deepen. and kyle was a bit boring but not the worst ive read.

[Shadow Dancer]

Just finished the book. A very interesting read, I've never read NoK ( and I don't intend to, this event of which we already know the outcome for years to come, I cannot bring myself to care) and judging from just RotCG I don't agree with the complaing about ICE's writing style. This book, while having a few flaws (such as the whole Ereko thing, why he had to die?), was quite compelling. It starts slowly, but it picks up pace pretty soon, delivering a quite good convergence at the end. The death of Laseen was a powerful moment, especially being told by Possum. While Mallick Rel as a person is despicable, he is a very good schemer ( a praise for using the arrest of Korbolo Dom to gain the military support). Anyway I look forward to the Stonewielder.

This post has been edited by Shadow Dancer: 03 April 2010 - 04:06 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Shadow Dancer, on 03 April 2010 - 04:05 PM, said:

Just finished the book. A very interesting read, I've never read NoK ( and I don't intend to, this event of which we already know the outcome for years to come, I cannot bring myself to care) and judging from just RotCG I don't agree with the complaing about ICE's writing style. This book, while having a few flaws (such as the whole Ereko thing, why he had to die?), was quite compelling. It starts slowly, but it picks up pace pretty soon, delivering a quite good convergence at the end. The death of Laseen was a powerful moment, especially being told by Possum. While Mallick Rel as a person is despicable, he is a very good schemer ( a praise for using the arrest of Korbolo Dom to gain the military support). Anyway I look forward to the Stonewielder.

you're seriously short-changing yourself not to mention vastly underestimating just what happened on the night of kel and dancers ascension by refusing to read NoK. it is a whirlwind ride of a book with some great flashbacks involving dassem, and some crazy info on shadow. nice and short read that doesn't feel rushed and still delivers some great punches. seriously. read this book

[Shadow Dancer]

Ok. if there's info on Dassem and the Shadow, maybe I'll give it a try. I love the small (or not so small:) details, that's one of the reason I love the Malazan world.

[braxat2000]

Hi,
I just finished this book, and I want to express how much I've enjoyed it.
New awesome characters, nightmare names, and probably the first post in this thread sums it as well for me.

But it is so sad for me that so many important players have perished, I mean lasseen?? she was the charcater I loved to hate..
And it is a shame I think that so many of these people are killed, because I hope this world will be developed and written in a whole lot more.

I loved the new characters, Kyle, Rell, Ullen, Nait, the lost brothers, Rillish and many others.
and I loved how I couldn't throughout the book decide if I want the imperials to win or the old guard.

My only complaint which is not truely a complaint is that I would have really like it if not all the great people died all the time, I mean they managed to survive much nastier wars, and made it alive to here, so it looks to me a bit too much to kill so many of them.

Taychrenn should have been protected better, he endured for a long time and was too powerful and smart to be surprised by veils, I mean he didn't strike me as someone to disregard the fact he is going into a battle with the crimson guard.. The same for Laseen. She strikes me as very smart, should have been protected better and not just walking like that in the field.
The same for the great commanders. Inspiration and all that, they should have remained behind ETC,

But all this didn't by a bit interfere with the great enjoyment I got out of this book.
After reading this series in the last couple of months I deeply feel for this world and the people living in it.

And can someone please gut this mallick rel dude, or does the writers leave his fate for the last?

[haroos]

spoilers and such :

laseen was finaly shown to be where she was by rights.
except the part where she made kalam worship her , more or less, with a few simple words, there were no graceful moments for her the entire series.

i liked the emphasis on dancer's prowess, which made me remember the part where he talks to dassem and reminds him of how he sparred with him while he (dancer was drunk).
dancer remembered it as a fun memory, but dassem was serious and said he tried to kill him ...
exactly how good is dancer then ?
then is he second only to draconus and rake ?

the iron bars parts kind of left me mystified, he was a character i liked since his first appearence in MT, and his duel with the seguleh was awesome, although
i don't understand why he was just discarded this way, is his role then over in the books ?
a slave forever ?

nait was a nice character, i liked his attitude to braven tooth, i especialy liked the part where he upset braven so much, that tooth said that if he kept this on
he would name him , and then he did ...
ICE has a touch that erikson is missing as far as more personalized characters ... i'm not sure how to describe it.
the only point i have with this book, is that it doesn't look like it changed/s anything in the main plot of the series.
i mean, yes rell is the new emperor, and the wickans are restored, but do the next book/s ever return to them ?
probably not.
it was a closure more or less, but not in the main plot.

btw - i'm a sergeant on the forums !!
in real life, i'm not sure what the equivalent rank is, but it's the 6th from the bottom.

This post has been edited by haroos: 11 April 2010 - 08:26 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

well the events don't impact to much on SE's main series, but ICE is sticking with these storylines in his next book, Stonewielder.

Kyle, greymane, Mallick rel, iron bars and all the rest will be in Stonewielder, which is set to take place on korelri, with the new emperor renewing the malazan military operation there. or something like that

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

haroos, on 11 April 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

spoilers and such :
i liked the emphasis on dancer's prowess, which made me remember the part where he talks to dassem and reminds him of how he sparred with him while he (dancer was drunk).
dancer remembered it as a fun memory, but dassem was serious and said he tried to kill him ...
exactly how good is dancer then ?
then is he second only to draconus and rake ?

Where is this part in the book? I don't remember it and I wanna look it up.

[worry]

I think the main disappointment with Ereko's storyline is that being so old, he knows so much, and there's only a glimmer of some of that even during his POVs. His death though didn't disappoint me because, being the last of his kind, and that kind being mostly forgotten, it's appropriate to have no fanfare or grand mourning period. Only Traveller gets it. Kyle's perspective is that of a friend, so only Traveller and the reader understand what's happened in terms of the big picture, and so that's all who are left to mourn.

[maro]

Goodness, I've just finished it today. By a quirk of ordering, I've read up to (And including) Dust of Dreams first. I don't think it made any difference in the end - the minor spoilers from TtH were fine (Traveller etc).

The thing with Ereko's death is actually similar to how SE handles things. They both hint to stuff in the past but don't go into too much detail (The original 7 Cities ritual etc). I think it's in part down to their Archaeological bent - you can only piece things together a bit at a time.

I've said this about NoK, ICE handles combat/battles much better than SE. From individual combat up to multi-army battles, he's all over it. I felt shell-shocked afterwards. Pale wasn't written as good IMHO.

Reading the book now after all of the other back-to-back, it actually reads very well as a part of the whole.

At this point I rate it the best so far (controversial I know, we'll see how that stands when I re-read them all again).

A few questions about bits I may have missed:

Ardata - I can't remember which book she's in and the relationship with Kallor.

Sorrow -= My copy is the latest paperback, I can't find reference to Sorrow in the cast list.

Moss - any ideas who he is/what he is - Talon or Claw?

Lasseen - Was it me or did it switch her portrayal to a sad, more sympathetic character. At some points, she was very even-handed, similar to her handling of Dujek

Mael - it's hard reading him as the power source for Mallick after Reapers Gale. Weird.

Topper - When does he become Tatterdemalion?

Greymane - Fuck yeah!

This post has been edited by maro: 23 April 2010 - 06:32 AM

[Abyss]

maro, on 23 April 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

Ardata - I can't remember which book she's in and the relationship with Kallor.

I vaguely recall she's first ref'd in MoI, but if not there, somewhere else it's established that she had a kingdon and paid tribute to keep Kallor off her case. We learn a bit more of her in later books.

Quote

Sorrow -= My copy is the latest paperback, I can't find reference to Sorrow in the cast list.

Do you mean Sorrow or Storo?

Quote

Moss - any ideas who he is/what he is - Talon or Claw?

Implication is Talon, since he doesn't work for Laseen at least initially.

Quote

Lasseen - Was it me or did it switch her portrayal to a sad, more sympathetic character. At some points, she was very even-handed, similar to her handling of Dujek

Neither sad nor sympathetic so much as more developped than in previous books. I thought what ICE accomplished with Laseen was one of the best parts of the book.

Quote

Mael - it's hard reading him as the power source for Mallick after Reapers Gale. Weird.

Agreed but the book makes it pretty clear he doesn't like being forced to help Jhistal worshippers - it's one of those worshippers influence the gods things.

Quote

Topper - When does he become Tatterdemalion?

His absence is first noted in TB, so presumably by then Laseen has already sent him into the IW to be in place against Cowl when it goes down in RCG.

Quote

Greymane - Fuck yeah!

Word.