[Abyss]

buddhacat, on Oct 5 2008, 05:24 AM, said:

It says in the book, in so many words, that Taya thought her mother Vorcan was dead (she was actually hidden away in the Azath House) and that she blamed the Malazans (i.e., Laseen) for it.

While TtH sheds some light on this, but fundamentally all one needs to accept is that Little Vee worked for Mallick and Mallick set her on Laseen and whomever else he wanted out of the way.

Urizen, on Oct 5 2008, 05:28 AM, said:

I still say this is a weak reason. She should be aware of the fact that mommy is not really dead, ...

Actually, as of RCG Vorcan is still snoozing in the Azath House and dead or gone as far as most anyone knows.

Cougar, on Oct 5 2008, 10:51 AM, said:

I'd just like to add that if Tayschren is actually dead I'll eat my hat

I'll go one further and eat your hat after you've passed it if he is in fact gone.

Quote

...Just because Mallick Rel thinks that he knows her motives doesn't make it so. Beacuse, and this might shock you, CHARATCERS DO LIE TO EACHOTHER AND THEY ARE MISTAKEN. ...

Point being, SE does switch up apparent motivations and reasoning.

As a complete aside, i was finishing up the reread this past weekend and stumbled on this absolutely priceless bit...

Nait is about to go in with Tourmaline to set the munitions against Yath's ritual. Urfa is helping him...

Urfa: Bet you'd take Ryllandaras over this any day.
Nait: Naked, with jam on my ass.

- Abyss, slowly putting Nait on par with Fid....

[bobbo]

I'm sorry, i don't care what anyone says but this book was not what i expected... i mean i would rather ICE just left all the the great legends like Toc the Elder, the rest of the "Ol' Gaurd" and the Avowed that SE had written about and not have written anything. ICE wrecked the legends that SE wrote about and deveoped. Now about the book... I didn't laugh at any of the Nait bits, didn't get the whole "Ghelel" or "Ereko" storylines and that Kyle kid really annoyed me. I mean, come on, "Kyle"? Its such a common name, its ridiculous! Ahh, maybe i'm being too hard on ICE, but come on, RotCG is no where near good enough to compete with any of the SE books. In fact, SE should have wrote this book. Not good enough

[Ganymed]

byakuya, on Oct 8 2008, 02:56 AM, said:

I'm sorry, i don't care what anyone says but this book was not what i expected... i mean i would rather ICE just left all the the great legends like Toc the Elder, the rest of the "Ol' Gaurd" and the Avowed that SE had written about and not have written anything. ICE wrecked the legends that SE wrote about and deveoped. Now about the book... I didn't laugh at any of the Nait bits, didn't get the whole "Ghelel" or "Ereko" storylines and that Kyle kid really annoyed me. I mean, come on, "Kyle"? Its such a common name, its ridiculous! Ahh, maybe i'm being too hard on ICE, but come on, RotCG is no where near good enough to compete with any of the SE books. In fact, SE should have wrote this book. Not good enough

Woah, quite harsh in your judgement, don't you think? But hey, it's your opinion, you certainly have the right to have one, so please don't take my questions as criticism. I just wonder how you think that ICE wrecked the legends and why the Kyle storyline bothered you other than his name. I'm aware that one can dislike a book without having specific reasons as to why, but maybe you can add a bit more depth into your criticism!?

Personally I like it quite well. It's not perfect but an entertaining read and somewhat better than some of SE "lesser works"... *ducks behind cover*

EDIT: Added last paragraph.

This post has been edited by Ganymed: 08 October 2008 - 06:52 PM

[Epiph]

Finished last night.

Overall, I quite enjoyed it. I had some trouble getting into the first quarter or so, but after Heng, I was hooked.

ICE can definitely write a fight scene, and the finale battle was just endless hit after hit. I was literally reading at stoplights.

I loved Hurl's story line. When the book opened, I mentioned to zwit that it seemed like SE and ICE didn't differentiate well between their female soldier characters. Hurl struck me as a sapper version of Picker, or a sober version of Hellian. But as the story progressed, the character deepened with the tragedy of that story line and I ended really enjoying it. Poor Storo

I enjoyed the Crimson Guard, in general, but thought Iron Bars story was superfluous.

I agree with whoever said that they didn't like Kyle's storyline. It was a little too...Level 1 Fighter follows his destiny and obstacles melt away (much like in NoK, Kiska was a Level 1 Rogue). Kyle never really overcame anything and only grew in as much as he saw more of the world. He never had a real, concrete desire he was going for, and if finding K'azz was that desire, ICE didn't do a good enough job showing that Kyle really cared one way or the other. Still, better than Crokus in GotM.

There were certain stylistic elements to ICE's writing that I didn't really appreciate, namely, his method of summary and exposition, but that I'm sure will evolve as ICE continues to write.

Overall, I'm totally pleased and glad that ICE continues to hold SE's characters to their high standard.

[Zendog13]

I know what you mean Abyss, that was a priceless line. Mind you... now I will never look at jam in the same way again.

[Nakorite]

Cougar, on Oct 5 2008, 10:51 PM, said:

I'd just like to add that if Tayschren is actually dead I'll eat my hat

but how good was his entrance and duel?

He'll be back, probably even more powerful than before.

[polishgenius]

byakuya, on Oct 8 2008, 01:56 AM, said:

I'm sorry, i don't care what anyone says but this book was not what i expected... i mean i would rather ICE just left all the the great legends like Toc the Elder, the rest of the "Ol' Gaurd" and the Avowed that SE had written about and not have written anything. ICE wrecked the legends that SE wrote about and deveoped.

In terms of the Avowed, we're told that they were ICE's creation, and SE was only building them up. I agree that I was rather disappointed with Iron Bars, he was much more badass in MT, but other than that they were all fine, and IBs story is clearly going somewhere. Plus he was down on strength in at least his first encounter.




Overall, having just finished it, I really liked this - not as good as SE's best, but my favourite Malazan book since Midnight Tides.

I agree with most of what Abyss said... Lasseen was awesome and so was Nait. Also Hurl. I liked the way Tays went all Ceda on us then made his badass entrance at the end, good stuff.

Downsides: I share the Ereko concern, and I didn't really get the point of the whole Rift thing, apart from to give Tayschrenn a reason to pop up and get sucked into warrens. Did we get an ID on the mage guy and why he opened the Rent? Also, Gelhel didn't get enough pages and as a result her storyline suffered a bit of redundancy.

[GingerBreadMan]

polishgenius, on Oct 17 2008, 10:44 PM, said:

Downsides: I share the Ereko concern, and I didn't really get the point of the whole Rift thing, apart from to give Tayschrenn a reason to pop up and get sucked into warrens. Did we get an ID on the mage guy and why he opened the Rent? Also, Gelhel didn't get enough pages and as a result her storyline suffered a bit of redundancy.

The mage went insane, whether it was the giant statue which "infected him" or whether it was just the insanity of a high mage exposed to Otateral for year upon year..

I think it was the statue, I believe they mentioned he was "infected" as was one of the Avowed(I think Iron Bars) which makes sense since Yath was studying it and "using" it while Iron Bars got "attacked" by it

What are the odds that Laseen ends up in the House of Shadow?

Does Shadowthrone want a Queen?

She was a tremendous Assassin as a mortal and I never got the impression that her "killing" Dancer/Kellanved was taken personally

This post has been edited by GingerBreadMan: 18 October 2008 - 08:20 PM

[Urizen]

GingerBreadMan, on Oct 18 2008, 09:19 PM, said:

What are the odds that Laseen ends up in the House of Shadow?

Does Shadowthrone want a Queen?

She was a tremendous Assassin as a mortal and I never got the impression that her "killing" Dancer/Kellanved was taken personally

I think the odds for Laseen is low. I think she actually died.The only one dying and then ascending to godhood so far has been Trake.
Dancer might not have taken it personally but I feel Kellanved did. Not to the extent that he'll compromise his plans of course but not to being forgiving to the extent of giving Laseen a high place in Shadow.

As for some candidates for Queen of Shadow:

- Apsalar. She has the skills for the "job" and Possum thought(perhaps misstakingly) that she was Queen of Shadow. Sure she walked away at the end of TBH but who's to say she hasn't involontaryly been elevated. After all Trull manged to become Knight of Shadow without being chosen by ST/Cots or striving for the position.

- Apsalara, Lady of Thieves. She's a strongwilled Ascendant/god and I imagine that Shadow would appeal to thieves just as it appeals to assasins.

[polishgenius]

It was definitely taken personally. I'm pretty sure the entire point of possessing Sorry was as part of a plan to kill Laseen, it was only at the end of the book that Cotty, at least, changed his mind - I think he mentions he can't speak for Shadowthrone.

I'm not 100% sure on all that, but I think it's in the ballpark...

[Mentalist]

I CAN FINALLY FREAKING POST IN HERE!!!!!!!!!!!


well, I got the book 2 days ago. I POWERED thru it, beceuse I it's exam season and I can't have a distraction like that on my mind. (tomorrow I gotta write 2.5 k paper, but it's SOOOO worth it)

so, umm yeah

Toc the Elder was an awesome, though very tragic figure. I'm surprised we didn't get a scene of Hood showing up to collect him, as in RG we've heard that "he remained faithful"

TOPPER LIVES!!!!
just as I though he did. with him lurking in the shadows, Mallick's career may be shorter than most expect... and, was that him that dropped by Heuk?

Iron Bars going to the Wall--great finale, guess we'll see more in Stonewielder, maybe?

Skinner... wtf? and how did Ardata end up loosely connected to the CG?

also, a minor point, but i'm not sure why Kyle's differentiated from the Assail bunch, since he was apparently also from there. and how was this place different from where Iron Bars and the rest were.

best comedy moment ever--Shadowthrone's brok'hala servant mopping up the floor, while Cot and Dassem get ready to fight Osserc..

overall, GREAT book, Mallick still lives, but his time will come...

oh, and who was the patchwork wanderer of the Imp. Warren that killed everyone?

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 19 October 2008 - 06:18 AM

[Silencer]

I felt that Toc the Elder didn't live up to expectations...did he even do anything?

Topper...yeah. Quite liked him in this one. Not heaps...but he was a good character in the end.

It wasn't him talking to Heuk, I don't think. And yeah, I'd love to see Mallick thinking that he'd got away clean..and then Topper... *evil grin*

I agree with the comedy moment.

I think Skinner got the armor from Ardata when he was on Jacuruku, and betrayed Ardata when he went to the CG. Or perhaps she is playing both sides? A complicated way of getting back at Kallor, possibly.

[Mentalist]

Toc.. well, he took the command of the Cavalry in a really cool fashion..
and then he had all those talks with the Seti.
And then he ordered that Assaoult on Heng where Shaky dies...
and then he did some fighting in Li Heng when Ryllandas was freed..

but I see what you mean.
tbh, I was kinda rooting for the rebels, but then you see it all fall apart, and in the end you get the same type of thinking as Ullen did..

but, Kallor's also working for the CG. him and Skinner...
i'm confused a bit now.
why did the CG say "about time someone claimed it?" Kallor clearly wanted it from the start...

and as an aside: it's funy how after TTH everyone moaned that we didn't get a Kallor vs Dassem... since RotCG is choronologically earlier, now we know why

[Silencer]

Yes, although I have always had a thing for the Empire...but Amaron was the one who got me on the side of the League. Then he did nothing until the Ryllandaras battle. I kind of expected Dancer's off-side guy to be better. Again, disappointment. Do you think this has anything to do with the new beats old theme in the books?

That's what I'm getting at, Ment, Skinner works for the CG, Kallor works for the CG. Kallor wanted King, now Skinner (with Ardata as Patron) gets King. How much will that piss Kallor off, do you think?

Kallor wanted King. But he wasn't good enough. That's the point the CG is making.

[Urizen]

Silencer, on Oct 19 2008, 08:36 AM, said:

Yes, although I have always had a thing for the Empire...but Amaron was the one who got me on the side of the League. Then he did nothing until the Ryllandaras battle. I kind of expected Dancer's off-side guy to be better. Again, disappointment. Do you think this has anything to do with the new beats old theme in the books?

That's what I'm getting at, Ment, Skinner works for the CG, Kallor works for the CG. Kallor wanted King, now Skinner (with Ardata as Patron) gets King. How much will that piss Kallor off, do you think?

Kallor wanted King. But he wasn't good enough. That's the point the CG is making.

I'm doubting that Ardata working for/with the CG. Her only appearance dosen't indicate her working for the CG and if she does side with CG why would she give Skinner indestructable armour? The theme among the persons in HHC (Karsa being the exception) is that they want power and control over others for themselves, so why would Ardata empower her competion?

Also seeing how Skinner is a selfish powerhungry SOB who's goal, in ROTCG, seem to be first get control of the Guard then the Empire, can we trust his word that he's actually patroned by Ardata? for all we know he stole/found the armour. It lends more weight after all to your leadership claims if tell your biddies that you have the backing of a Godess.

[polishgenius]

Mentalist, on Oct 19 2008, 07:18 AM, said:

oh, and who was the patchwork wanderer of the Imp. Warren that killed everyone?

That was Topper, no? Secretly sent there by Lasseen to kill any non-sanctioned Claw going through the Imperial Warren.

Quote

just as I though he did. with him lurking in the shadows, Mallick's career may be shorter than most expect

Well, (Minor Stoneweilder spoiler from ICE intervews)

Spoiler

according to ICE's latest interview (found on Pat's fantasy Hotlist) his next book is set two years later and Mallick's in it, so it won't be all that short.

Ah well.

[Aooga]

edit: deletd whole post and decided to put it in the silly question thread.

This post has been edited by Aooga: 19 October 2008 - 02:05 PM

[Abyss]

GingerBreadMan, on Oct 18 2008, 04:19 PM, said:

....I think it was the statue, I believe they mentioned he was "infected" as was one of the Avowed(I think Iron Bars) which makes sense since Yath was studying it and "using" it while Iron Bars got "attacked" by it

That was Blues and he was the one who was infected.

Quote

What are the odds that Laseen ends up in the House of Shadow?

Does Shadowthrone want a Queen?

She was a tremendous Assassin as a mortal and I never got the impression that her "killing" Dancer/Kellanved was taken personally

This isn't unthinkable but as she was doused in Otataral powder at the time and seriously willfull, i doubt it.

Mentalist, on Oct 19 2008, 02:18 AM, said:

...

Toc the Elder was an awesome, though very tragic figure. I'm surprised we didn't get a scene of Hood showing up to collect him, as in RG we've heard that "he remained faithful"

Good question, but one is suspect we take as happening 'off screen'. Poor TtE, totally got the bum's rush.

Quote

Skinner... wtf? and how did Ardata end up loosely connected to the CG?

We don't know that she is. Skinner may be the only link between them.

Quote

also, a minor point, but i'm not sure why Kyle's differentiated from the Assail bunch, since he was apparently also from there. and how was this place different from where Iron Bars and the rest were.

Nope - Kyle was from wherever the Guard were at the beginning of the story. Assail was before that.

Quote

best comedy moment ever--Shadowthrone's brok'hala servant mopping up the floor, while Cot and Dassem get ready to fight Osserc..

Especially in how St interpretted that as 'the House' not being concerned so he didn't need to be.

Quote

oh, and who was the patchwork wanderer of the Imp. Warren that killed everyone?

Topper.

Silencer, on Oct 19 2008, 02:24 AM, said:

...I think Skinner got the armor from Ardata when he was on Jacuruku, and betrayed Ardata when he went to the CG. Or perhaps she is playing both sides? A complicated way of getting back at Kallor, possibly.

I like that idea. Have invisible rep.

Mentalist, on Oct 19 2008, 02:39 AM, said:

...
tbh, I was kinda rooting for the rebels, but then you see it all fall apart, and in the end you get the same type of thinking as Ullen did..

If by that you mean utterly in awe of Laseen pwning everyone, then yep. I was totally on board to see the rebels succeed and ICE turned it right around. Storo and co staying loyal to Laseen helped that.

Quote

but, Kallor's also working for the CG. him and Skinner...
i'm confused a bit now.
why did the CG say "about time someone claimed it?" Kallor clearly wanted it from the start...

Good question - just a theory, i figure the CG pulled a fast one on Kallor who thought he had to seize the throne or something, when all he had to do was declare for it.


- Abyss, seizes the throne every day or so...

[Fifty]

Flawed, on Oct 1 2008, 07:21 AM, said:

I enjoyed the book. Lots of old and new people. I almost thought it too crammed at one point.

I was fairly puzzled by the whole Rylannderos ( sp ) thing. Him being Soletaken and Divers? Isnt he also the chap who chased Karsa accross the desert?

Was it Ryllandaras or Dessimbelackis that chased Karsa across the desert? I think it may have been Dessimbelackis.

This book got better as it went on. The second half was close to SE's standard. I thought the first half was weak. Not even close to GotM, nor even TtH. Better than NoK though. The battle at the end was almost up there with the Chain of Dogs and the Second Siege of Y'Ghatan.

Kyle grew on me. He is a little bit early Paran, a little bit Crokus. Not as good as Paran, not as irritating as Crokus, but a bit dimmer than either of them. As for his motivation, I got the feeling he felt like he should have a motivation, so seized on one that came along and made it his own. He'd have seized any other similar opportunity that came along.

I liked Jumpy, but lets not get too excited with comparing him to Hedge and Fid. He has a ways to go yet! I'd put him on par with Picker/Antsy/Blend etc though.

If Cartheron Crust had not been included, everyone would have asked where he was, so he had to be included. Same for Iron Bars. Now they can both come back. Urko was written okay. Amaron has never had much background, so his treatment did not matter. Same for Choss. Toc the Elder was a massive disappointment to me, possibly the biggest of the book. I was SO excited when he appeared, I was telling my flatmate about it, and the only Malazan books he has read are the Novellas and NoK. I'd have liked Toc to be THE main PoV character, like Toc the Younger. I think his death was meant to be poignant, but it just seemed dull and futile.

Korbolo Dom probably reached his high position by always having well trained Malazan armies to fight his campaigns with rather than any particular excellence. Competent in the field and ruthlessly amoral off of it is how he got to be Sword.

Mallick Rel becoming emperor actually worked, strangely. ICE was careful to leave no other viable alternatives and the part where he assumes command is well written. Mallick was generally well written throughout.

Skinner seemed slightly bone-headed, but just about plausible. I found Cowl more interesting.

Possum was slightly irritating. Seemed a bit out of his depth. He got better as it went on. Nice to see Topper back. Tatterdemalion was Topper, right? I still miss Pearl.

Laseen was a bit too chatty in the earlier parts. She ought to have been more taciturn, like Tavore, IMO. She improved.

Ghelel pissed me off non-stop, start to finish. How many rhetorical questions can be squeezed in to one book? And Molk was a Baudin wannabe.

Kallor seemed badly written. I like where his story arc is going with SE, this seemed to weaken it.

Coil/Cowl. Shimmer/Skinner. Hurl/Heuk. Shaky/Storo/Stoop/Smoky. Rell/Rillish. Why?

[amphibian]

Fifty, on Nov 23 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

Was it Ryllandaras or Dessimbelackis that chased Karsa across the desert? I think it may have been Dessimbelackis.

It was Ryllandaras. We have not seen Dessimbelactoseintolerant in these books yet - as far as we know.

Quote

Laseen was a bit too chatty in the earlier parts. She ought to have been more taciturn, like Tavore, IMO. She improved.

Yes, women should be seen and not heard. And stay in da kitchen.

Quote

Coil/Cowl. Shimmer/Skinner. Hurl/Heuk. Shaky/Storo/Stoop/Smoky. Rell/Rillish. Why?

Stan/Dan/Nan, Mike/Ike, Joe/Moe/Bo, Chris/Christian/Christopher/Christy/Crystal, Ram/Rama/Rana/Rani, Muhammad/Mohamet/Mohamed. Why?

Plus, remember that people like Braven Tooth are giving names. Some similar-sounding ones are going to pop up every now and then.