[Cougar]

I've said quite a bit on other threads so I won't repeat myself but my 2 favorite scenes were:

The final fight with Ryllandaras and Dassem fighting Skinner with Temper and ferrule guarding his back. In the last couple of SE books especially TtH the level of complexity and detail has made me a less involved reader, where as I am used to fighting th battles with them. ICEs description of these scenes really sucked me back in. Urko trying to throttle the white jackal was awesome, I could feel the buring bicep and the animals flesh. Dasem owning Skinner and being denied victory had me frustrated as hell and I was convinced he was going down but the way he did him was wicked. I'm not sure it shows that Dasem is far superior, just that Skinner is complacent cos of his armour.

The only thing I would add to complain about was the number of (non-avowed) characters who seemed to suffer horrific injuries and survive and in many cases carried on fighting. Similarly I was unimpressed by how often it seemed that units and companies were being wiped out by powerful sorceries and yet survived, it seemed at times that ICE went overboard trying to convey the scale of the losses.

[Flawed]

I enjoyed the book. Lots of old and new people. I almost thought it too crammed at one point.

I was fairly puzzled by the whole Rylannderos ( sp ) thing. Him being Soletaken and Divers? Isnt he also the chap who chased Karsa accross the desert?

Anyhow. Going back to Abyss's comment about how Laseen planned everything, then when you thought it was in good hands she was done in?!

Sounds fairly reminicent of Kellevand and Dancer to me.

Crazy theory: Laseen has now ascended to be away from the Empire as it is now unsaveable. To form her own powerbase and influence the battle against the C G and such from a different higher power source.

Perhapswe will see her within the House of War?

All in all i thought the book Handsome

[Abyss]

Flawed, on Oct 1 2008, 03:21 AM, said:

I was fairly puzzled by the whole Rylannderos ( sp ) thing. Him being Soletaken and Divers? Isnt he also the chap who chased Karsa accross the desert?

Yes, it was the same Rylladaras - in Dg we see Ry' and he's become Wolves, and Iccy and Mappo comment that he used to be jackals. In MoI as he's dying Trake recalls Ry as having conquered the insanity of shapeshifting by becoming soletaken and d'ivers both. At the time, i suspect most readers took that as simply a comment that Ry had become better at the whole shapeshifting thing. But ICE shows us in RCg that Ry has in fact spun one of his bodies off into it's own bugnuts mass murdering semi-soletaken god man-jackal form, while the 'sane' personality remained d'ivers and learned to change it's animal shape.

Quote

Anyhow. Going back to Abyss's comment about how Laseen ... Laseen has now ascended ...

Not unthinkable, given her links to Shadow and overall accomplishment. on the other hand, she was more or less covered in otataral dust when she died. I wonder if that is a factor. I kind of hope she stays dead - death has more impact when it's permanent (see Brys).

- Abyss, was dead once but got better...

[Vengeance]

I don't think that the empire is doomed. We know that Grup becomes the first sword of the empire eventually. I could see Tavore becoming empress. She is cold and calculating like Laseen, and she has a strong dislike of Mallick. Which the Bonehunters at her back she would be unstoppable. Of course she would first have to survive the upcoming end of the world battles.

[Flawed]

The whole Otteral dust will have an effect true. Although it could preserve her or heal her in some way?

Or her spirit leaves behind her body and the contamination that is the Otteral.

I vote that she is still alive and will be low key for a while then come out at then end to destroy all.

The Otteral healing her as it does so many others.

I like your explanation Abyss as to how Rylanderos had some how shunted aside his madness into one form and then is free to progress on as he wills.

I think in general the book was ok. A lot of things revealed, hinted at and a absolute barrage of old school and new school people. I got the feeling he was trying to cram too much in there to then justify the run up to the end for all the books seeing as they have so much to stick in so few novels left.

How long now till the next book? A year? for both of them or is Erickson brining out a Novella. He'd better!

* Shakes fist *

[Sindriss]

No offense, but I seriously doubt she will ascend. Dancer and the emperor already did that and if she repeats it the almost exact same way it would just be too shallow. She died a very good death if you look at our (the community) reactions and I am very sure she will stay dead. Cannot see any reason for her to get back up

[Traveller]

Just finished it last night.... aah, what a great book! And, ARGH!

It's all summed up by Abyss there... couldn't agree more. It was a relief after TTH to get quite so absorbed - I had no idea that RotCG would cover so much new ground, and tie up so many previous story threads. And see the end of Laseen!

I think that moment alone rivals anything in TTH's - ICE handled it so well.

A few thoughts on the end... I got the feeling that Moss was after Ghelel for more personal reasons, too.

Also, I'm still not sure who it was in the Imperial warren that kept killing everyone - Topper, wasn't it?

There were perhaps a few too many 'significant character appears from portal, kills someone/gets beaten back, disappears through portal again' moments. Although I don't really mind, as the Dassem, Temp and Ferrule against Skinner was too good to complain about. It was the Kallor/Ereko bit that seemed fairly, well, underwhelming.

I don't think I really got the whole Vow thing - was it like the Imass Ritual? And what exactly did the 'cloud' of Kurald Galain achieve during the battle?

Overall I thought it was a great addition; some strong new characters, and a convergence worthy of SE.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 03 October 2008 - 07:57 AM

[Abyss]

Sindriss, on Oct 2 2008, 01:55 PM, said:

No offense, ...

None taken. We're just speculating.

Quote

...I am very sure she will stay dead. Cannot see any reason for her to get back up

See Itkovian, Brys, Toc, Coltaine...

Quote

... And what exactly did the 'cloud' of Kurald Galain achieve during the battle?
...

I was just rereading that bit. Heuk's cloud fought back the Avowed High Mages when they tried to take out Nait's redoubt. There were still Imperial casualties, but otherwise they would have been wiped out.


- Abyss, still in the dark...

[Zendog13]

I can see it now, while Malic sits on the throne being all pompous a warren pops open and a dusty and slightly disheveled Tay emerges, takes one look at the ex-priest and zaps him to....somewhere. Then places someone else on throne to rule while he goes back to being all secretive. Or summat.... Seriously though. Abyss you more or less covered it mate. Though why Moss would be after Ghelel is beyond me, also.... can anyone shed some light on WHY Vorcan's little love produce was after Lasseen?

[Quick~]

Zendog13, on Oct 4 2008, 09:34 PM, said:

.... can anyone shed some light on WHY Vorcan's little love produce was after Lasseen?

The logical assumption is probably that it was on Rels orders (though why she's with rel who knows, money?), afterall she was helping him take care of things with the councilmen earlier in the book and so on.

You could take a few wilder stabs though, ideas like her (or her mother) holding a position in High House Shadow and thus acting out Ammanas's will or something *shrug*

[buddhacat]

Quick~, on Oct 4 2008, 02:33 PM, said:

Zendog13, on Oct 4 2008, 09:34 PM, said:

.... can anyone shed some light on WHY Vorcan's little love produce was after Lasseen?

The logical assumption is probably that it was on Rels orders (though why she's with rel who knows, money?), afterall she was helping him take care of things with the councilmen earlier in the book and so on.

You could take a few wilder stabs though, ideas like her (or her mother) holding a position in High House Shadow and thus acting out Ammanas's will or something *shrug*

It says in the book, in so many words, that Taya thought her mother Vorcan was dead (she was actually hidden away in the Azath House) and that she blamed the Malazans (i.e., Laseen) for it.

[cauthon]

I really enjoyed the book, though I feel a second read is in order to be able to align the different (shorter) sections from the first part to the second and third parts. I felt kind of sad to see Lasseen bite it, I had expected Mallick and Korbolo to die. I wish Korbolo had met Urko or that the Wickans had exacted payment for Coltaine. Of course, that issue still might get settled now that Nil and Nether are in power and Coltaine is back. That was a realy nice touch, though not that unexpected. We knew he would not be making it back to the main series, but here, well, cool! Overall, I give it an 8.5/10. Had the first part been written more cohesively or with longer sections/povs, I would definitely give it a 9 or 9.5. But heck, now I can reread it at leisure, and realy enjoy the detailsrather than getting an adrenaline rush from the plot advancement. Thx ICE.

[Urizen]

buddhacat, on Oct 5 2008, 05:24 AM, said:

It says in the book, in so many words, that Taya thought her mother Vorcan was dead (she was actually hidden away in the Azath House) and that she blamed the Malazans (i.e., Laseen) for it.

I still say this is a weak reason. She should be aware of the fact that mommy is not really dead, not to mention why blame Laseen? Why did she not blame Rake and the Tiste Andi? After all, the malazans simply hired Vorcan to do a job while it was the Andii who was the reason for Vorcan disapearing/"dying".

Crackpot theory: Taya is Vorcan and Shadowthrone's lovechild and ST was responsible for the hit on Laseen. The revenge motive is simply cover since ST and High House Shadow moving "openly" against Laseen and the Empire would be noticed by the other Gods and Ascendants and get them involved. Convergance of Power and all that..
A young girl with desire of vengenace against her mom's killers on the other hand goes unnoticed in the great scheme of things.

[Cougar]

I'd just like to add that if Tayschren is actually dead I'll eat my hat

[buddhacat]

Urizen, on Oct 5 2008, 02:28 AM, said:

buddhacat, on Oct 5 2008, 05:24 AM, said:

It says in the book, in so many words, that Taya thought her mother Vorcan was dead (she was actually hidden away in the Azath House) and that she blamed the Malazans (i.e., Laseen) for it.

I still say this is a weak reason. She should be aware of the fact that mommy is not really dead, not to mention why blame Laseen? Why did she not blame Rake and the Tiste Andi? After all, the malazans simply hired Vorcan to do a job while it was the Andii who was the reason for Vorcan disapearing/"dying".

Crackpot theory: Taya is Vorcan and Shadowthrone's lovechild and ST was responsible for the hit on Laseen. The revenge motive is simply cover since ST and High House Shadow moving "openly" against Laseen and the Empire would be noticed by the other Gods and Ascendants and get them involved. Convergance of Power and all that..
A young girl with desire of vengenace against her mom's killers on the other hand goes unnoticed in the great scheme of things.

Let me get this straight: In RotCG, it says in so many words that Taya joins Rel to enable her revenge against Laseen. But you want to reject what the author said, and go with a crackpot theory of your own.

Right. Carry on.

[Urizen]

buddhacat, on Oct 5 2008, 04:40 PM, said:

Let me get this straight: In RotCG, it says in so many words that Taya joins Rel to enable her revenge against Laseen. But you want to reject what the author said, and go with a crackpot theory of your own.

Right. Carry on.

I said Crackpot theory didn't I... besides I like to to think that ICE is able write an somehat advanced book, which rises above the simplictic plots you see childrens books.

A reason though: Just because Mallick Rel thinks that he knows her motives doesn't make it so. Beacuse, and this might shock you, CHARATCERS DO LIE TO EACHOTHER AND THEY ARE MISTAKEN. But then again you might not believe that Shadowthrone and Cotillion used to be Kellanved and Dancer either... After all, a lot of character both says and thinks that Kellanved and Dancer died.

[buddhacat]

Urizen, on Oct 5 2008, 11:37 AM, said:

buddhacat, on Oct 5 2008, 04:40 PM, said:

Let me get this straight: In RotCG, it says in so many words that Taya joins Rel to enable her revenge against Laseen. But you want to reject what the author said, and go with a crackpot theory of your own.

Right. Carry on.

I said Crackpot theory didn't I... besides I like to to think that ICE is able write an somehat advanced book, which rises above the simplictic plots you see childrens books.

A reason though: Just because Mallick Rel thinks that he knows her motives doesn't make it so. Beacuse, and this might shock you, CHARATCERS DO LIE TO EACHOTHER AND THEY ARE MISTAKEN. But then again you might not believe that Shadowthrone and Cotillion used to be Kellanved and Dancer either... After all, a lot of character both says and thinks that Kellanved and Dancer died.

Now you are just full of shit. Treating me like I'm ignorant of this series and its authors, just so you can continue in your crackpottiness. Like I said, carry on with the idiotic "everything is ST and Cots's plan!! Even if it explicitly contradicts what's in the book!! So there!!"

[Urizen]

buddhacat, on Oct 5 2008, 10:45 PM, said:

Now you are just full of shit. Treating me like I'm ignorant of this series and its authors, just so you can continue in your crackpottiness. Like I said, carry on with the idiotic "everything is ST and Cots's plan!! Even if it explicitly contradicts what's in the book!! So there!!"

Yeah, and You are such nice person

Considering that ST and Cot's been involved, one way or the other, in pretty much every plot except on Lether in MT I fail see why it's idiotic.

[Zendog13]

Private vengeance, yes....Shadow's and Cot's motive....too simple, or rather, not their style. Doubting what has been said in the books...sure, it has been proven before. All fiction...definitely , so lets all relax.

[Quick~]

Flawed, on Oct 1 2008, 08:21 AM, said:

Crazy theory: Laseen has now ascended to be away from the Empire as it is now unsaveable. To form her own powerbase and influence the battle against the C G and such from a different higher power source.

Urizen, on Oct 5 2008, 10:28 AM, said:

Crackpot theory: Taya is Vorcan and Shadowthrone's lovechild and ST was responsible for the hit on Laseen

we need a "crazy theories after RotCG" thread! Someone go make one >_>

-mori, also doesn't take Mallicks internal monologue as a set in stone view of the world.