[Urizen]

Fifty, on Nov 23 2008, 10:28 PM, said:

This book got better as it went on. The second half was close to SE's standard. I thought the first half was weak. Not even close to GotM, nor even TtH. Better than NoK though. The battle at the end was almost up there with the Chain of Dogs and the Second Siege of Y'Ghatan.

I felt the end was nowhere close to the the whole Chain of Dogs. It lacked the emtional impact of the entire Chain of Dogs.

Fifty, on Nov 23 2008, 10:28 PM, said:

Kyle grew on me. He is a little bit early Paran, a little bit Crokus. Not as good as Paran, not as irritating as Crokus, but a bit dimmer than either of them. As for his motivation, I got the feeling he felt like he should have a motivation, so seized on one that came along and made it his own. He'd have seized any other similar opportunity that came along.

A bit dimmer?? at the ending when they are fighting at the bridge I could picture Homer Simpson having a "D'oh" moment for not using Osric's weapon from the start.

Fifty, on Nov 23 2008, 10:28 PM, said:

Ghelel pissed me off non-stop, start to finish. How many rhetorical questions can be squeezed in to one book? And Molk was a Baudin wannabe.

Molk might have been a Baudin wannabe but at least Ghelel had some thinking going on unlike some of the others choughKylechough. I think Ghelel had a good start that might make her readable and likeable in future novels. Of course if she's never seen or heard from ever again then her storyline was moderately pointless..

[The_Saviour]

Overall i liked it, and felt that the latter parts hold up well to the other Malazan novels, it also put the emipre in an interesting position, by putting a wholy unlikeable, evil, vindictive, and scheming murderer on the throne.

The only real question i have, is where do the Crimson Guard go now? Through the Imperial Warren yes, but then what? How will they lift their vow, if they can't libertate Quon Tali?

And if the elder Toc is dead, did he finally meet his son? I've been waiting since Gardens for Little Toc, to meet his father again, only for it to happen and nobody cover it?

[Abyss]

The_Saviour, on Nov 24 2008, 11:30 AM, said:

Overall i liked it, and felt that the latter parts hold up well to the other Malazan novels, it also put the emipre in an interesting position, by putting a wholy unlikeable, evil, vindictive, and scheming murderer on the throne.

AND cut him off from the power that let him get there. Mallick may be an interesting element to the story going forward - he's lost his Mael-drawn power. Assuming he was always only a priest and not a mage, now he's got only his brainz.

Quote

The only real question i have, is where do the Crimson Guard go now? Through the Imperial Warren yes, but then what? How will they lift their vow, if they can't libertate Quon Tali?

Good question. They seem to have accepted that the vow is now not going to be fulfilled. Certanly Skinner's contingent of Avowed aren't keen to give up their relative immortality.

Davore/Shimmer's group are in an interesting state. They have the surviving soldiers of the various investitures with them, so mercenray work is possible.

Also, Kazz suggested that the Vow was doing something unusual to him, which may open the possibility that the Vow is changing into something else.

Anything is possible at this point - go to free Iron Bars; a return to Assail, conquering a whole other country out of boredom...


- Abyss, prefers checkers...

[Sinisdar Toste]

The_Saviour, on Nov 24 2008, 10:30 AM, said:

Overall i liked it, and felt that the latter parts hold up well to the other Malazan novels, it also put the emipre in an interesting position, by putting a wholy unlikeable, evil, vindictive, and scheming murderer on the throne.

The only real question i have, is where do the Crimson Guard go now? Through the Imperial Warren yes, but then what? How will they lift their vow, if they can't libertate Quon Tali?

And if the elder Toc is dead, did he finally meet his son? I've been waiting since Gardens for Little Toc, to meet his father again, only for it to happen and nobody cover it?

when toc younger died Hood told him that he would await his father, only now toc elder is dead and toc youngers got all this heralding to do... could put the reunion off for a little while. i expect we'll see them both together in some capacity in SE's final two.

[Obdigore]

Question for you all to ponder - probably a wild theory:

Why does Laseen have to be dead? Possum used Mockra to change his height to screw up killing blows, why couldn't Laseen have done the same, ESPECIALLY when she was expecting something.

We saw her fall, and then so did Possum and then the healers arrived, then later there was a state funeral.

Is this Laseen's way of drowning?

[T'renn]

Come to think of it...

Ascension anyone ?

Queen of High House Shadow is unoccupied momentarily...

[Aptorian]

You don't just ascend. ANd if she did ascend, I'd expect the author to drop just a small passage on such an event.

I was actually a bit disappointed that the Esslemont didn't have one of the Shadow rulers pop up on the battlefield to pay their respects to Laseen. Or spit on her corpse... what ever might tickle their fancy.

[T'renn]

No, you ascend when you get a certain amount of power (though I didn't get really in what sort of way)

And, yes I too would have like for ST or CT to have made an appearance

[Blend]

Just finished it last night, and much like everyone else, I pretty much agree whole-heartedly with what Abyss said.

Few points - Coil was the High Mage chick, but what was she trying to do exactly? Just cleanse the Claw of Mallick's influence? How did she know who was good and who was bad?

Next, the whole Toc the Elder thing. If all of this happened before TtH timeline-wise, Toc the Elder would have ended up in Hood's Realm, no? And if that's the case, wouldn't Toc the Younger have seen him at some point? Why weren't any of the Old Guard in the battle against Chaos in TtH? Finally, if Toc the Elder was still loyal to Hood as was implied, then he may have been sent off to do something else for Hood after he died, and Toc the Younger may be meant to run into him somehow on his last task from Hood.

Next, the whole Laseen couldn't have ascended because she was covered in Otataral Dust thing is slightly silly. Kel and Dancer, on their last night, fought Laseen in a room completely covered with Otataral. It's not a stretch to believe that they may easily have been covered in the stuff after having fought with Laseen and before ascending. I, too, will stand in the Laseen may not be dead thing.

Tayschrenn was kind of a disappointment to me in this novel, but I *do* like where they are going with him. I feel that ICE has a much better grasp at Tay than SE did, and that he personifies Tay's 'I only get involved when the world is at stake' attitude much better than SE ever did. Besides that though, it's too bad that he didn't have a bit more screen time. The fight between him and Yath was quite awesome though!!

The whole Ryllandaras thing was really neat. I took the whole thing to mean that Ryllandaras was a D'ivers back in the day too. There are mentions of clans and such watching him fall to his death over a cliff, but then he'd show up again. It makes sense that he was D'ivers, and that no one knew, and so when they thought he was dead he'd just show up again. Kel stuck one of his many forms underneath Heng, and I assume that he was somehow unable to revert back to Human, and so just became the crazy killer. However, the whole Ho thing shows that it's possible for parts of the D'ivers to turn on the other, so Abyss' notion may be closer to the truth.

Speaking of Ho, what the heck happened to his other forms? Awl, etc.? I thought he was hunting Ryllandaras with Liss, Hurl, etc. But he seemed to just disappear to me. Did I miss something?

Next, how does everyone know that Taya is Vorcan's daughter? I mean, it makes sense to me to believe that Vorcan shagged a demon and had Taya, and it sorta hit me in the face, but do they actually mention somewhere clearly that she's Vorcan's daughter?

Guess that's all for now!


EDIT: Oh, also, Kyle is from the Bael subcontinent, so not from Assail. It has been mentioned before that Assail is ICE territory, so I assume that Kyle, Greymane, Stoop and the Lost Brothers are headed there next to make some hurt happen. They're currently in Burn's temple, so that may be a quick way for them to get there. Alternately, they may not. But the Lost Brothers were really cool in that they seemed nearly as powerful / skillful as the Avowed, but weren't. It lends credence to the whole Assail Tyrant thing. A Tyrant and army so powerful that even the Imass and CG were not able to stop / kill him / them. Makes sense for these really cool brothers to come from that, don't you think?

Another thing - Cowl is now in the Deadhouse Azath. Which means he's not dead, which means he may, and probably will show up in either SE's last two books, or another ICE novel. I personally think that whatever happens in Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God will involve the Azath in a monumental way, and there has been enough talk of destroying Azaths that I wouldn't be surprised to see them all get destroyed before the end of it. Outpouring of Ascendants and Gods anyone?

I had something else in my head, but I've completely forgotten what I was gonna say, so that's all for now!


EDIT # 2: I remember now! What in the world was the point of the scene with Liossercal, Denuth and Draconus? It didn't seem to tie into anything in RotCG as far as I could tell. Just showed (again) that Azaths CAN be destroyed, and that Osserc has done it once. Was it just setting us up for Osserc's return, and maybe giving us hints at what part he will play in the next novels?

This post has been edited by Blend: 04 December 2008 - 07:56 PM

[Urizen]

Blend, on Dec 4 2008, 08:28 PM, said:

Speaking of Ho, what the heck happened to his other forms? Awl, etc.? I thought he was hunting Ryllandaras with Liss, Hurl, etc. But he seemed to just disappear to me. Did I miss something?

He did not go with Liss. He do turn up at the end with Heuk when Mallick take charge and Bela is appointed High Mage

Blend, on Dec 4 2008, 08:28 PM, said:

Next, how does everyone know that Taya is Vorcan's daughter? I mean, it makes sense to me to believe that Vorcan shagged a demon and had Taya, and it sorta hit me in the face, but do they actually mention somewhere clearly that she's Vorcan's daughter?

It says so in the DP and I think Mallick remarks on it as well.
Actually Vorcan did not shag a demon, She is the demon...

[Blend]

Urizen, on Dec 4 2008, 08:58 PM, said:

Actually Vorcan did not shag a demon, She is the demon...

Woah, what?

[Lisheo]

Someone comments on Vorcan, can't remember who, saying "She is a demon in truth." TBH I just took it to mean she's cruel and inhuman, but I suppose it could mean she is a demon.

[Abyss]

I thought her kid was part demon, but iirc, Vorcan herself is human, albeit near immortal high mage assassin queen.


- Abyss, mortal caffeine assassin prince.

[Urizen]

Lisheo, on Dec 5 2008, 05:15 PM, said:

Someone comments on Vorcan, can't remember who, saying "She is a demon in truth." TBH I just took it to mean she's cruel and inhuman, but I suppose it could mean she is a demon.

It's Raest that makes the "demon in truth" comment to Rallick Nom. I took the comment litterary as Raest presuably would know something about demons nor would he be concerned enough about regular humans being cruel and inhuman enough to consider them demons. Also considering that Rallick and Vorcan laid sleeping in the Azath for several years(?), It would not suprise me if Raest peeked under Vorcan's mask.

[T'renn]

Well, that could be possible, but who knows ? Maybe she wasn't happy when she woke up and thus raged at Raest ?

[Richard]

I finished it yesterday and am still trying to sort out my thoughts on the book. Overall I must admit it's a very good read, whether I liked it or not is still to be decided.

One of my biggest problems is the use of various old guard and other famous or imfamous names from the pantheon of notable characters initiatially mentioned by Erikson. Fair enough in some cases as they're part of the world and rather essential if you're going to write about Malazans. I still don't know if I felt the way they were protrayed worked or not. I think he captured most of the characters in a reasonable fashion but really couldn't grasp why he'd done it. For instance Urko has been rather contentedly living in a lighthouse putting together fossilised remains for years now he's back to help lead a revolution against Laseen. Except that goes to hell and for the sake of honour and his men his temporary rejoins Laseen to help fight the Guard.

Amaron and Toc felt utterly and I do mean utterly wasted. Most of the old guard felt out of place and the whole Talian league just seemed too convenient for Laseen's purposes when no possible links were given. Oddly most of the characters did seem very well fleshed out and good. Overall it wasn't the characters that felt wrong it was the situations they were forced into.

I liked Ghehel and Kyle, naive and scrupulous but both very decent characters and easy enough to like. I did not like Nait/Jumpy, he transformed from obnoxious to imitation Fid very quickly with little reason beyond Braven Tooths official naming of him which I guess signified he did have something in him from the master sergeants point of view.

Ryllandaras was interesting lots to read into for me, from the soletaken/D'ivers aspects to his utterly malevolent and rather random slaughter runs. The final clash felt rather underwhelming though, after being held back by almost each part of the group at least once before the whole lot together can't take him without some sort of final sacrifice and even then only after a couple get killed in the attempt. Much better was the idea that Ryllandaras was orignally soletaken and through a ritual made himself a D'ivers (a ritual Ho recreated to make himself D'ivers) and that different parts of a D'ivers can act completely apart from the rest and even that they can work against one part. (Ho being betrayed by his other selves was very interesting. Talk about a disagreement with yourself.

The large scale engagements did not translate well for me. I did not really find they communicated anything of significance except set the scene for betrayal and scaling events.

I've been waiting for some insights to Laseen for ages. Since Gardens of the Moon I've been waiting for some decent stuff on her and this book actually delivered something close to what I'd been hoping for. I've also been waiting for her to die as well. May she rest and we be done with her stinking corpse! Ahmen. Did not really understand why it ended up Vorcan's daughter that did the deed as I was a little confused to her purpose. Much like Kiska in night of knives I did not like, care or enjoy any element containing her.

Possum was a useful point of view but I didn't like or enjoy reading his parts. His conceited attitude and constant shortcomings made it very difficult to accept his worth amongst the claw. He seemed to possess none of the efficacy you'd expect of someone his rank. Oddly reminiscent of Korbolo in that respect. (A lot more likable though.)

Osserc/Liossercal was odd, interesting and not enough made of him but filled out a few gaps. Likewise Skinner and Iron Bars just felt like bit parts and only there for mention. Yes Skinner seemed superfluous except for the fact he kind of had to be there in some way. Ereko was a hard element to accept as he was a very engaging character, initiatally feeling like Mappo (a companion) but developed into so much untapped depth it felt just awful to see him die in such a fashion.

Overall as I said at the start I'm still sifting through my thoughts.

[Trotts]

I too finished the book recently, and I must agree with Richard about the Old Guard just being tossed in, in some cases. I did like Toc though, I felt he was used nicely, and had a very 'Hull Beddict' type death with was interesting. Amaron and Choss were really just tossed in and around. Amaron was really an utter failure for me, he didnt seem like very much at all.

Skinner was interesting, Im even more curious now at just what happened that got them pledged to Ardata. However I am confused. What exactly were the CG regengades planning to do. I mean if they beat off the Empire and assumed the throne... well the vow would be fulfilled wouldnt it?

Kyle was a decent character, and had some decent insights, but for the most part he was the kid with the magic sword. The Lost Brothers were pretty fun though. I love that one line about how Kyle was just running and trying to get away, whereas they were running and foraging at the same time, and still werent even at full pace. His whole 'trying to find Kazz and succeeding' bit wasnt that much fun for me to be honest. I did not like Kazz at all.

Ereko was another character I had hopes for, but ultimately he fizzled a bit. He ended up too kind-hearted all the time. I understand he just gave a big speech about not going after vengeance, but then when Kallor appears he just lets Kallor wipe him out? I kind of got that he wanted to die, but still it was all abit too sacrificial without much of a purpose. And just how did Kallor appear?

And one last question for now: Who is Silk? Was he a Tiste Liosan? He seemed to try to use the warren once, but that was about it.

[Abyss]

Silk was a human High Mage of Kurald Liosan and/or Kurald Thyrllan. As far as i remember, nothing suggested he was anything but a human mage with the usual near immortality that brings with it. I thought this was interesting in that it suggested humans had used the Elder/Tiste warrens long before the 'modern' warrens evolved and/or were shaped by Krul and the dragons.

- Abyss, elder statesman (but not that elder).

[Ain't_It_Just_]

To tell the truth, I didn't believe that Laseen was dead until it said "Laseen's corpse." I'm just that kinda guy...

Nait was a great character but I got annoyed when he helped turn the tide of battle against the Talian League. Made me sadface. But his fling with Tourmaline (rofl'd at the Moranth name Blossom-he was a guy!) was fucking hilarious. Especially when Heuk or someone lied and said Moranth can't get out of their armour.

I was a little disappointed that Cowl wasn't abso-bloody-lutely unleashed. But the story of Skinner was awesome.

All in all, it was everything I hoped it to be-and more. And the Wickans (insofar as it seems) had a happy ending. Smileyface.

-AIJ, wants another story daddy

[Aptorian]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 9 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

Especially when Heuk or someone lied and said Moranth can't get out of their armour.

Lied? Have you ever heard of a moranth taking their armor of or just removing the helmet?

The armor is grafted unto the skin.