[Sinisdar Toste]

ok yes one man against 8 or 10 is pretty much a slaughter, but the segulah can just stand back to back and keep moving. tool can turn into dust and just bugger off whenever it gets too heat. garath is a (probably) ascendant hound, baaljagg is a wolf god and envy is pretty much an elder goddess. in this universe its entirely plausible that they could take on hundreds at time

[Tremolo]

Cause;362826 said:

First off you cant block attacks frrom eight guys. And even if you could you could not attack back. But if you could their would be a few hundred in the wings. Throw in shields and seguleh are in trouble. And as you said cavalry, crossbows arrows magic etc.

1 man against ten is impossbile. The odds are just imposible. 100 against a thousand is do-able.

Wouldnt there be a limit to the amount attackers who could feasibly get into the fight without getting in each others way?

[Tapper]

aye, I set it to six or eight at maximum, but even that is a lot when you fully surround someone. Only poking or vertical slashing would be possible then.

[eekwibble]

Oh dear.

How about; Envy attracted the armies, they wouldn't have been there if not for her. The Seguleh would've killed every mofo they came across on their way to meet the Seer so he wouldn't have been informed and he would have stayed in Bastion if not for the threat of Envy. His armies would've left to go to the siege and the KCCM weren't much of a threat to those three nutters so it's entirely plausible for the 1st to think it's a sound plan!

[Cause]

I think some of you need to take a step back from your fantasy books if you think that 3 men could fight of a hundred in an open field. Okay so only eight men could attack the same man at once you say? Its true in a way. But thin about the momentum. You form a phalanx 10 men deep ten men wide. Interlock your shields and just charge at them. One man could not resist being knocked over, even if he could kill everyone in the fron row with his, Im almost dassem ultor routine.

[tiam]

i think you need to delve back into your fantasy book to take into consideration that if SE put the three seguleh on a road against a hundred medium infantry that they would likely win. For example after the Seguleh had cut through about 20 or so id say that the rest would break.

[Ayrin]

@Cause
Momentum? What stops the lone guy from just moving backwards at a matching pace?

Yes, a lone person can move forwards far faster than backwards, but it feels likely that a lone person should be able to move backwards at at least the same pace as a 100 people in formation can move forward.

And I don't really think the thing with infantry in a formation is that you should be able to run people down... That's what you use your heavy cavalry for.

[fafner]

the only problem that I got with the Seguleh is that for a warrior culture they send 3 fighters as a army but we know that almost all the armies in wu are made up of soldiers and mages so how can the seguleh be so dangerous?

[Cause]

Listen I think Seguleh are amazing. They are some of my favourtie characters. I have no doubt that fighting on stairs where only three men or so could get to them at a time they would clean house and still be cleaning it tommorow when bad guy 1001 steps up to die.

I also dont think its co-incidence that the fight between the segeluh and envy with the pannions forces out in the field was covered only in the most barest of detaiLS. Their was no other way to make it work.

As for power levels and what SE intends I think we have seen enough invincible beings get decapitated by noboides and enough nobodies get killed when an invincible being sneezes to realise something fishy is going on with how strong every one really is.

And Avin nothing stops the seguleh from retreating excpet that they are seguleh, they would lose the fight and well its just not a winning startegy. Also ancient formations especially the greek phalanx like I described would charge at great speed into the enemy. If that enemy is only one man hell get bowled off his feet.

At the end all Im trying to say is evryone in the book has limits and well one man can only do so much.

[Ayrin]

Cause;363371 said:

And Avin nothing stops the seguleh from retreating excpet that they are seguleh, they would lose the fight and well its just not a winning startegy. Also ancient formations especially the greek phalanx like I described would charge at great speed into the enemy. If that enemy is only one man hell get bowled off his feet.

I willingly admit that I don't know that much about warfare, but I presume "great speed" is relative another formation and not, for example, a single runner...

At the same time, I agree with you, it's not very likely the seguleh 3-man army would have succeeded, not that a single person (ok, 3 single persons) could stand up to an army without some serious advantage given by their position (or by using cruise missiles). Statistics alone says they are f*cked, it's enough with one good hit from one person in the army.

The only thing I have a real problem with is your "momentum" argument. Makes me see a bunch of people running towards a single little person with a mask and then jump up and down on him repeatedly .

[tiam]

Btw the whole Phalanx would likely be outflanked to be pedantic. Also weve only seen the Seguleh as a duelling society so maybe they would retreat tactically. But your probably right theyd likely fight a fighting retreat and get rinsed

[Trenchgrave]

Good day all, this is my first post, so pardon me if it is a tad incoherent and rambling.

As far as my understanding of events stretches, the three seguleh was sent as a punitive force against the Pannion by the first.

I presume that the first is no idiot, and would therefore not have expected his lads to carve their way through entire armies (skirmishers, infantry, archers, cavalry etc). The expectation was propably that they would wonder over a scorched, war torn country, maybe wiping out the odd patrol, or two, untill they get close to the Pannion Seer himself before going into all out assault mode and cutting of the head of the problem, as it were.

It may even have been a one way suicide mission by the first to get rid of the threat that Mok posed to his position as well as ridding himself of the problem that was the Pannion.

Then Envy arrived on the scene...and she needed a distraction. And all the Seguleh's plans went to hell as they became usefool tools (weapons) in a game they hardly knew about.At least she was kind enough to keep them alive.

Back to Madrun and co, the alledged politicking of the first in response to Mok may give us a hint that all is not well on the isle, and mayhap these gents were in the same position that Mok finds himself in now, and instead of doing the suicide mission thing to keep the first in power decided to go their own way. Mercinary Seguleh must be paid well, and it may also explain their reluctance to make masks, they might be a bit bitter about the choice they were forced to make.

Pure speculation on my part, but there we go.

Now what interests me is that Seguleh hates magic. And our renegades have those dice....

[Tapper]

Cause;363348 said:

I think some of you need to take a step back from your fantasy books if you think that 3 men could fight of a hundred in an open field. Okay so only eight men could attack the same man at once you say? Its true in a way. But thin about the momentum. You form a phalanx 10 men deep ten men wide. Interlock your shields and just charge at them. One man could not resist being knocked over, even if he could kill everyone in the fron row with his, Im almost dassem ultor routine.

Please mind that the following stuff is about a Greek phalanx, not a macedonian or swiss one, but since most medium infantry in SE's books are described as spear- and shieldwielders, I think that's the best comparison.

I've been trying to avoid comparison with real-world military affairs since I feel they can't be compared (this being fantasy and all - if SE wants the Seguleh to win, they win, if he wants army X to fight effectively in a way Y they fight effectively that way) and since they lead to inconclusive and endless debates - but since you refer to the phalanx, I feel compelled to answer (I'm a military historian by education, my "chosen specialty" was 4th century Greece BC).

Firstly, the way you described a phalanx and it's way of fighting is only one of the three currently viable theories - to be exact: the one revived by Hanson, that of the Othismos. Peter Krentz and Adrian Goldsworthy have developed alternate descriptions based on the exact same sources and neither feature a block of men moving or pushing - one closely resembles mass dueling and the other portrays phalanx warfare as a primitive forebearer of the roman legionary tactics, who did not rely on mass either (being smaller in stature, having shorter weapons and usually being outnumbered by their opponents).

Secondly, when you charge, running speed differs immensely between people, and since some don't want to be in the first rank, they'll slow down while the eager ones speed up. As such, there is no massive impact unless you march - there is chaos instead - and if you march, a single man can outmaneuver a formation all the time.

The aforementioned Krentz wrote an article based on Xenophon's and Teucydides' battle descriptions and mentioned numbers of casualties. The tables show that until the moment of breaking of one phalanx, casualties were roughly even and fairly 'low' - 3% to 5% or so (I could be off here, as I don't have the article at hand, but it was certainly less than 10%).
It means that morale ran out long, long before manpower did. So, the Seguleh would have to kill possibly 7-14 guys for the enemy formation to lose all hope.

I think John Keegan has something to say about this in his "The Face of War" as well.
The reason why we all think this is different, is mainly due to exceptions like Cannae and the myths surrounding battles like Agincourt - and fantasy of course .

[Tapper]

"Trenchgrave" said:

Back to Madrun and co, the alledged politicking of the first in response to Mok may give us a hint that all is not well on the isle, and mayhap these gents were in the same position that Mok finds himself in now, and instead of doing the suicide mission thing to keep the first in power decided to go their own way. Mercinary Seguleh must be paid well, and it may also explain their reluctance to make masks, they might be a bit bitter about the choice they were forced to make.

Pure speculation on my part, but there we go.

Now what interests me is that Seguleh hates magic. And our renegades have those dice....

Nice reasoning there, I like the self-imposed exile. While we know the stance of the Seguleh on magic, we don't know why, and we don't know if divining is considered to be the same as magic by the Seguleh.
If so, it could very well be what forced Madrun & co out of the island.
It could also be they adapted divining dice into a game the same way Fiddler plays games with the Deck. Or it could be religious - we don't know if the Seguleh refute religion or if they have cults or gods for themselves.

[Cause]

Tapper;363614 said:

Please mind that the following stuff is about a Greek phalanx, not a macedonian or swiss one, but since most medium infantry in SE's books are described as spear- and shieldwielders, I think that's the best comparison.

........

when a hundred men face three even knowing they are seguleh and their reputation I cant help but feel the hundred men would be very confident. Good morale.

Anyway Im not going to harp on about this phalanx thing as the answer. Equally an army would have hundreds of archers. That alone means three swordsmen are stuffed

[Tapper]

Turn a page back for a mention of arrows

The sole reason why the Seguleh aren't dead is because SE wanted them to be weapons of mass destruction during MoI, and threw Envy, 2 dogs of Dhoom and the First Sword of the T'lan Imass in the mix. Together, they were too much for the Pannion to defeat and just how important the Seguleh were or were not is mentioned nowhere.

[Tremolo]

Trenchgrave;363600 said:

... reluctance to make masks, they might be a bit bitter about the choice they were forced to make.

Pure speculation on my part, but there we go.

Now what interests me is that Seguleh hates magic. And our renegades have those dice....

I would think the masks would make great advertisement about skills and such

[Abyss]

@eekwibble - 1) yes, we know that already, but that doesn't tell us anything about where Initiaties stand versus the 'ranked' Seguleh like the 1st, Mok, and the 13th Karsa beat, unless you are in possession of some knowledge SE has not yet included in the books about just how many levels of initiates there are and how many rankings. And put that hand away until you wash it. 2) they were Pannion missionaries, not mages and

Cause;363348 said:

I think some of you need to take a step back from your fantasy books ....

tiam;363354 said:

i think you need to delve back into your fantasy book ....

See, this sums the debate up right there... you can't apply real world logistics to a fantasy setting beyond a certain point and expect to arrive at a logical conclusion.

If the basic question is whether three seguleh however high ranking amount to an army in more than name (they self-ref as a 'punitive army'). It seems it was Krul who directed Envy to assemble the team, so to speak, and it's open for speculation whether Krul was working with the 1st to some degree. Without Envy, the pooches and Tool, it's likely the approach may have been different, but keep in mind, it's also likely the 1st wanted Mok taken out of the picture.

Tremolo;364089 said:

I would think the masks would make great advertisement about skills and such

Or alternately piss the other Seguleh off at them even more!

as for the dice, interesting point there. Wonder if that has something to do with why they are on the outs.

- Abyss, could say they are masking their intentions...

[Morgoth]

I got the impression (though it's not really implied as such in the book) that the three seguleh whom the title is dedicated to left/fell out/were banished from seguleh society because of their cruelty. It's mentioned that these three acted out undescribeable acts of cruelty, which I think would be frowned upon in societies so tightly bound to honour and skill as the seguleh society.

[Abyss]

Morgoth;365402 said:

I got the impression (though it's not really implied as such in the book) that the three seguleh whom the title is dedicated to left/fell out/were banished from seguleh society because of their cruelty. It's mentioned that these three acted out undescribeable acts of cruelty, which I think would be frowned upon in societies so tightly bound to honour and skill as the seguleh society.

Wasn't it just Lock who was so ref'd, by Torvald iirc? The other two were just frightening in general....

- Abyss, uncertain...