[tiam]

Abyss;357617 said:

The odd part is that while descriptions of Thurule, Senu and Mok and even the female
13th in TB all have them as similar - slim, athletic, two swords, etc, Madrun is described as short and heavily muscled while Door is tall and lanky and tattoed, while Lock is mummy wrapped. When the attack happens Madrun and Door both use the two swords tho, but Lock seems to be a pharmacistépoisoner if anything.

So either Seguleh society is less uniform than it seemed, or there is a good reason why these two/three are particularly unusual.


- Abyss, would have liked to read the description of those masks...

They all sort of tie in to that city in the north called one eye cat. Studlock had something happen to him there that led him to have to use bandages all over himself (im on a reread btw and have just passed that bit). We see from Humble Measure, whos also from one eye cat that the city hired someone to keep the malazans out. Lazan Door and Madrun Badrun were chasing a fist under a mountain which then came down on them. Thats all i can rememeber bar it was Brood who brought the mountain down whether that was in MOI or more recently.

Abyss- Regarding the apperance id say its because there exiled they dress like that. Maybe Seguleh are all comformists and the jester style one is using his clothes as independence, if you see what i mean. Also as to there genetic appearance like ones gigantic, the seguleh weve seen are young. SEnu is like 14 which probably makes Mok about 20-25. THese could simply be veteran seguleh who are in there late 30's and have grown. We know that the Seguleh as a warrior society meant mothers had to have like 12 kids as most of them would die. Maybe when you hit a certain age you have to attempt to go up a rank or something. This explains why all seguleh are reasonably young as the older, slower seguleh would be chalenged by the younger faster ones. This may explain why they fled, simply to grow old

[Tapper]

I can't imagine Seguleh don't have a way of retiring from active service. A society completely made up by warriors who train every second they are awake will lack other specialists - farmers, doctors, historians, smiths etc.

Seguleh don't leave their island, which means they are probably self-sufficient. If not, they have to produce a few commodities to trade with. Who's producing these?
It is also very likely that there are trainers/ drill instructors for the lowest level initiates. It would be very awkward if these teachers get killed every time a student graduates. Probably, if you're not a warrior or remove yourself from the rankings, you are considered to have less rights as a citizen, or are a servant to the state.

What I see as a probable cause for banishment/ outlawing would be failing yet surviving a mission given to you by the First. Surviving means you simply didn't try hard enough, or didn't try every option.

A side-question: was Thurule (and thus possibly Mok and Senu as well?) burned to a crisp during Spite's assault? A meeting between them and the outlaws could be fun...

[Cause]

No its quite simple. If you back down or avert your eyes you have surrendered your place in the heirachy. You dont challenge people who you think are better than you. Senule and theru were very hesitant to attack tool and once he beat them they owed him respect. They never challenged Toc because he was afraid of them and his body language showed it. Therfore they had already beat him and he was ranked lower down than they. If the 17th meets the 16th and the 16th knows the 17th has superceded him he can avert his gaze swop masks and survive. Or at least thats how I imagine it works. Of course if your the 16th you probally have a fair bit of pride and would not back down and die. Im also sure alot of seguleh spend their whole lives as second third foruth etc level initiates and do alot of eye averting and get to live.

[Tapper]

Senu (the youngest) fought Tool nearly straightaway (the first evening they met or set out together, I think), and I think Thurule was only held by back by Envy when Tool defeated Senu. As such, I think challenges are made rather swiftly. See Rake's visit as well: he fought for ages because the challenges kept coming - and this to a Dragnipur wielding Son of Darkness who's probably faster than most of the Seguleh can even see.

As for averting the eyes... This may work at the top level (although I cannot see anyone stepping down from First peacefully), but not among the ...th Level Initiates of which there are many. These are probably upgraded by a shown level of skill. The amount of masktrading would otherwise be horrendous and there would be major gaps between peers of the same rank.

[Cause]

Tapper;358488 said:

Senu (the youngest) fought Tool nearly straightaway (the first evening they met or set out together, I think), and I think Thurule was only held by back by Envy when Tool defeated Senu. As such, I think challenges are made rather swiftly. See Rake's visit as well: he fought for ages because the challenges kept coming - and this to a Dragnipur wielding Son of Darkness who's probably faster than most of the Seguleh can even see.

As for averting the eyes... This may work at the top level (although I cannot see anyone stepping down from First peacefully), but not among the ...th Level Initiates of which there are many. These are probably upgraded by a shown level of skill. The amount of masktrading would otherwise be horrendous and there would be major gaps between peers of the same rank.

Theirs definatly a whole conversation about body language and seguleh in MoI. Tool also discusses it. Yes you are righ Therule does start pretty quick, but once how good Tool is Senule thought twice. Once Senule got bumped Mok was desperate for his chance but envy stopped him.

I agree that initiates dont duel to the death to adavnce, what I meant by my comment was that Im sure their are many seguleh who are not good enough and know it to advance into a higher ranking. So they dont challenge remain respectfull and survive.

[Karsa Oblong]

One thing that surprised me about Studlock, Madrun and Door was their level of eccentricity. From previous books in the series I had an image in my head of Seguleh as men (and women) of few words and very reserved nature (although quick to turn to violence if sensing a challenge). They seemed to have a sort Shaolin monk type of personality (a combination of inner strength and iron self discipline, but exuding calm and a sense of watchfulness). This was true of the Seguleh travelling with Envy in MOI and of the female Seguleh challenger to Rulad in RG.
Madrun and Door, in particular, seem much more like Malazan characters - bizarrely dressed, behaving strangely, exuding menace. Was anyone else struck by this different side to the Seguleh? And does it mean the Seguleh are much more complex than we had been led to believe or is it that there is something unusual about these individuals?

[Abyss]

Couple of points...
In MoI we see that heirarchy is everything to the Seguleh. Once Tool joined Envy's group, Senu challenged him immediately to establish who was superior to who. The comment was made that he actually parried Tool's attack while his blades were still scabbarded. And he was an initiate of no clear level we ever were told.

Note it was Senu, the lowest Seguleh present. Thurule waited a bit longer. When he challenged Tool it was a full on fight. Tool beat him but held back to avoid killing him and when he said so, Mok stepped up and was backed off by Envy. Later after the Seguleh took out the Kell, it was Tool who challenged Mok, to Envy's annoyance again. That said, in the Pannion's castle, Tool was absolutely certain Mok would defeat him.

I suspect the closest analogy to the Seguleh is the Spartans in the GATES OF FIRE/300 sense. Children fight each other at the training stage and deaths happen but could be rare.

Curiously, we've never seen reference to Seguleh as mercenaries, aside from Badrun and Door. We have seen ref to their metal bar currency and that they trade with floating Mekros cities. Someone has to be making those masks and swords in any event, so there must be some form of industry and food production, agri or otherwise.

I would guess that as conceived by SE, the lower initiates actually challenge each other all the time, but not to the death. Challenges at the higher levels are worked for, that is to say the fifth challenges the fourth just as soon as he or she feels ready for it. And i doubt 'ranked' Seguleh are content to just stay respectful and avoid challenging higher ranks - they would just be challenged by up and comers that much more often

And politics are still at play - Envy and Krul speculate that the First sent Mok because he was getting ambitious. technically, with the Second working for Hood, Mok was next in line to challenge to First. That also proves the above point about magic and Seguleh... Envy had to work at it, but she kept Mok, arguably the second most powerful Seguleh in the world (the Second being undeadish) under control.

The notion of women being allowed to choose to opt in or out is interesting. The Thirteenth we saw in RG would have to be very accomplished. iirc, in RG Karsa was actually the very first person she fought in Leth, so she didn't run around turning everyone who looked her way into cole slaw. Makes me wonder if she was sent there to test Rhulad (but decided to take on Karsa), rather than just coicidence.

Madrun and Door we know were mercenaries and outlaws. We don't know more than that but the fact that they were willing to set up shop in Darujhistan suggests they weren't concerned about being hunted by the other Seguleh.


I also wonder whether Thurule was deep-fried by Spite. Probably not, since Envy was already out of the estate watching the fireworks.


- Abyss, prefers them grilled.

[Dance]

Karsa Oblong;358581 said:

One thing that surprised me about Studlock, Madrun and Door was their level of eccentricity. From previous books in the series I had an image in my head of Seguleh as men (and women) of few words and very reserved nature (although quick to turn to violence if sensing a challenge). They seemed to have a sort Shaolin monk type of personality (a combination of inner strength and iron self discipline, but exuding calm and a sense of watchfulness). This was true of the Seguleh travelling with Envy in MOI and of the female Seguleh challenger to Rulad in RG.
Madrun and Door, in particular, seem much more like Malazan characters - bizarrely dressed, behaving strangely, exuding menace. Was anyone else struck by this different side to the Seguleh? And does it mean the Seguleh are much more complex than we had been led to believe or is it that there is something unusual about these individuals?

Consider what we've seen of the 2nd. He's also verbose and behaved strangely.

Could it simply be a reaction to spending lots of time in what's effectively a "free" culture, after being raised where hierarchy and cultural rules are literally a matter of life and death? Imagine being repressed for all of your life, raised from birth to be a swordsman, and - more importantly - raised to believe that swordsmanship should determine your place in life.

Then you end up in a society where the vast majority of people can't hold a candle to your skills (meaning from your POV, you are better then them). It must be like being a god - and you know what they say about power.

[Ammanas]

Abyss;358598 said:

- Abyss, prefers them grilled.

Only because you haven't tried the pickled version...

[Cause]

We are told the ranking of therule and Senu. I forget though. I believe one was a 13th level initiate.

As for the thriteenth, I read it that she ignored all the others because they were beneath her notice. She only chalenged Karsa once he had beaten all others and proved himself worthy as a challenge.

[Abyss]

Cause;358659 said:

We are told the ranking of therule and Senu. I forget though. I believe one was a 13th level initiate.

As for the thriteenth, I read it that she ignored all the others because they were beneath her notice. She only chalenged Karsa once he had beaten all others and proved himself worthy as a challenge.

I have some vague recollection that Senu was Seventh but i really don't know what basis i have for that.

Re the Thirteenth, that's my point - given that she was in a compound full of alpha male swordfighter types, she didn't pick a fight every other minute. She IGNORED them. That's what's interesting because the impression of the three in MoI suggested they would have thrown down on everyone just to establish dominance.

On the magic front, btw, Mok resisted Envy's sleepytime magic, and he picked up on the Poliel warren that was affecting Garath. So they are clearly not ignorant of warrens.

This is bugging me but i haven't gone into a serious reread yet (other than the last 150 pages three times)... was there not some passing reference suggesting a link between Seguleh and the Denul warren?


- Abyss, clearly needs e-versions on hand all day....

[tiam]

Abyss;358702 said:

I have some vague recollection that Senu was Seventh but i really don't know what basis i have for that.

Re the Thirteenth, that's my point - given that she was in a compound full of alpha male swordfighter types, she didn't pick a fight every other minute. She IGNORED them. That's what's interesting because the impression of the three in MoI suggested they would have thrown down on everyone just to establish dominance.

On the magic front, btw, Mok resisted Envy's sleepytime magic, and he picked up on the Poliel warren that was affecting Garath. So they are clearly not ignorant of warrens.

This is bugging me but i haven't gone into a serious reread yet (other than the last 150 pages three times)... was there not some passing reference suggesting a link between Seguleh and the Denul warren?


- Abyss, clearly needs e-versions on hand all day....

Yeh its when Duiker looks down in the cellar just after the attack i think. It really is only a passing comment i just passed it it on a reread and its the bit where Picker suspects duiker is holding something back. All he says is 'Denul and death.' or something like that. Its when hes discussing the whole mother of seguleh to keep the population stable. Maybe the Seguleh have incredibly proficient healers allowing the population to be saved say after a duel a high denul healer saves the loser. Or maybe the Seguleh refuse to use magic to heal. We see in MOI that Mok stands up to envy over the magical healing of Thurule. Maybe that what he was referring to. The refusal of Seguleh to use healers

From memory i think Senu was 11th, Thurule 7th and Mok ,obviosly, 3rd but that from memory.

As to your comment of being in a free culture this is similar to my long previous post idea that after being restrained, say Samurai restrained by honour an culture, they express them selves through clothing like Madrun

[Lister of Smeg]

I think Senu was an 11th level initiate, and he was only 14 years old. Presumably that means he is very low down the Seguleh food chain. Can't remember what level Thurule was at though.

[eekwibble]

Abyss;358598 said:

Couple of points...
Once Tool joined Envy's group, Senu challenged him immediately to establish who was superior to who. The comment was made that he actually parried Tool's attack while his blades were still scabbarded. And he was an initiate of no clear level we ever were told.

Yes, Tool says to Toc that if he hadn't anticipated the attack, it could've been a long-ass fight (followed by Toc's incredulity at the fact that Senu had started it and even fended off Tool's 1st two attacks with half-drawn weapons).

As LoS just said; Senu told us what his status was.

Quote

Paraphrase actually;
Tool - "How many years since your birth night(?)?"
Senu - "14, master Stoneblade. I am 11th level initiate"

----------

Abyss;358598 said:

Thurule waited a bit longer. When he challenged Tool it was a full on fight. Tool beat him but held back to avoid killing him and when he said so, Mok stepped up and was backed off by Envy.

Still one of the best scenes in the series:
Thurule wailing at Tool, they disappear into the dark - Envy; "Extraordinary skill, Rake on Seg island" - Mok; "Blacksword, 7th" - Envy; "Eager to die?, No-one he won't face" - Mok; "Him 7th, me 3rd"... blah blah... Tool reappears dragging Thurule - Envy; "Is he dead?", Tool;"No, fucking 'ard though!"

Quote

"All the more challenging for using the flat of my blade"

Mok ceases his upward momentum for a sec - Toc thinks; "Fuck me, Tool, You gave the 3rd pause!" :eek:

Abyss;358598 said:

The Thirteenth we saw in RG would have to be very accomplished. iirc, in RG Karsa was actually the very first person she fought in Leth, so she didn't run around turning everyone who looked her way into cole slaw. Makes me wonder if she was sent there to test Rhulad (but decided to take on Karsa), rather than just coincidence.

She just went for the hardest, most arrogant mofo there, rather than wade through a bunch of non-descripts'. :xander:

[Abyss]

eekwibble;359215 said:

...She just went for the hardest, most arrogant mofo there, rather than wade through a bunch of non-descripts'. :xander:

Sure, but if Seguleh are so discerning, why is so much made of not looking them in the eyes - see Toc in MoI and Fid in RG. A roomfull of swordsmen from all over the world, all (some) of whom are thought to be hard enuf to give Rhulad a challenge, and EVERYONE knows to or chooses to avoid her eyes? Seems unlikley, altho we could just write this off as happening 'off-screen'. That said, i'm wondering whether the 13th wasn't typical for Seguleh, gender notwithstanding.


- Abyss, wears sunglasses in those situations.

[The_Saviour]

If i remember right, doesn't Stud Lock wear a mask? If there are set levels of hierarchy, set by mortal combat, why would Madrun and Door, take orders from a Seguleh of no martial consequence? Unless he was maybe a priest of some sort............

And as an aside, Is the Seguleh Second, really the second? Can he still hld his place if he is dead? Wouldn't the person who killed him take his place?

[Abyss]

Studlock wore bandages or wraps or something similar. It wasn't really a mask in the usual Seguleh sense.

As for the 2nd, Krul and Envy's chat in MoI seems to show pretty clearly he's still considered to hold his rank, even tho' he's been 'dead' for a while. The other possibility is that their discussion referred to someone else and the Soldier/Knight of Hood is a previous 2nd.

- Abyss, could say they were uncertain about a number two...

[eekwibble]

I'm not saying that they all shied away from her, just that she would most likely rather batter the one, bad, bastard who posed the greatest threat rather than fight every single one of them. :roar:

[Cause]

The_Saviour;359231 said:

If i remember right, doesn't Stud Lock wear a mask? If there are set levels of hierarchy, set by mortal combat, why would Madrun and Door, take orders from a Seguleh of no martial consequence? Unless he was maybe a priest of some sort............

And as an aside, Is the Seguleh Second, really the second? Can he still hld his place if he is dead? Wouldn't the person who killed him take his place?

The seguleh seem to leave lost numbers open. Rake holds the seventh position. However he does not care, wont speak to the seguleh and generally just moved on with his life. As far as all seguleh are concerned blacksword holds the seventh mask and they want him to come claim it. Without him around they did not just fill it. If the eight wants to advance he know has to duel the 6th.

Also Im not sure the seguleh seem to realise the second is dead. So as far as they are concerned he still holds the rank. If they found out he died who ever killed him would be second. I think that means skinner.

[Raraku]

Cause;359842 said:

The seguleh seem to leave lost numbers open. Rake holds the seventh position. However he does not care, wont speak to the seguleh and generally just moved on with his life. As far as all seguleh are concerned blacksword holds the seventh mask and they want him to come claim it. Without him around they did not just fill it. If the eight wants to advance he know has to duel the 6th.

Also Im not sure the seguleh seem to realise the second is dead. So as far as they are concerned he still holds the rank. If they found out he died who ever killed him would be second. I think that means skinner.

So Rake was the Seventh and Dassem defeated him in a fught that was not all too fair. Would he now be the 7th or maybe it wouldn't count. I think it counts and that Dassem is the new 7th.