[tiam]

Seen as everyone ignored my previous post.

If Rake is 7th how is Thurule 7th? I imagine Rake hasnt fought Thurule and lost and escaped so it seems quite obvious that there are numerous varieties of the same Rank except for maybe the top 5. Slightly similar say to the heirarchy in the Terry Pratchet novels where the wizards can be of equal rank but theres only 8 level 8 wizards or some such thing (have only read Sourcery so if anyone can give more info.)

Also Krul expected the first to send 400 11th level Initiates to deal with the Pannion Domin.

[Giles]

i dont think thurule was 7th, i thought he had slightly less marks on his mask than senu, but i think the only mention of a 7th is rake, having just checked i found something else interesting, quote from lady envy

Quote

Rake said the last swordsman he face wore a mask with seven symbols

then from Mok

Quote

That mask still awaits him, Blacksword holds the seventh position

but if his mask has 7 symbols on doesnt that make it the 8th as moks had 2 and hes third:confused:

[Cause]

Therule and senu dont hold rankings in the numbers. They are initiates of diffrent levels. I look at it that initiates are still in school. You have to be of a certain level of skill before you graduate into real seguleh life and can start dueling for a ranking. Otherwise you have the black masks were all seguleh start and various initiate levels above that and than you get numbers. Senu and therule are very low in seguleh life

[Sinisdar Toste]

Raraku;359940 said:

So Rake was the Seventh and Dassem defeated him in a fught that was not all too fair. Would he now be the 7th or maybe it wouldn't count. I think it counts and that Dassem is the new 7th.

well do you think anomander cared he was the seventh? no, and every segulah still knew it. dassem would be but it was kind of a set up, and i think segulah would be obsessive about details.

[Cause]

If the fight between dassem and rake wont count though. Who will be the seventh. WHat will happen to the number? Retire it?

[Abyss]

Cause;360139 said:

... Senu and therule are very low in seguleh life

Disagree. In MoI Envy was stunned at the heavyweights the First had sent.

Consider that Senu and Thurule were inferior to Mok, but both held their own against a Kell Hunter - that's Kell Hunter as in one chopped its way thru a troop of Greyswords before they figured out the horse-and-rope trick. Sure, the two bros were losing before Rake dropped Moons Spawn on the castle, but earlier Mok trusted them to each remove a Kell Hunter arm on their own.

We only know that Senu was a "13th level initiate", and that there's a lowest level called Blackmasks (iirc). Thurule seemed to be ranked, but lower than Mok obviously.

All of which is to say, while obviously there are higher Seguleh than Senu and Thurule, what we've seen suggests they were hardly low on the totem pole.


- Abyss, plaidmask...

[Cause]

Abyss;360605 said:

Disagree. In MoI Envy was stunned at the heavyweights the First had sent.

Consider that Senu and Thurule were inferior to Mok, but both held their own against a Kell Hunter - that's Kell Hunter as in one chopped its way thru a troop of Greyswords before they figured out the horse-and-rope trick. Sure, the two bros were losing before Rake dropped Moons Spawn on the castle, but earlier Mok trusted them to each remove a Kell Hunter arm on their own.

We only know that Senu was a "13th level initiate", and that there's a lowest level called Blackmasks (iirc). Thurule seemed to be ranked, but lower than Mok obviously.

All of which is to say, while obviously there are higher Seguleh than Senu and Thurule, what we've seen suggests they were hardly low on the totem pole.


- Abyss, plaidmask...

I disagree with your disagreement! Envy was suprised by who the first sent. But than he sent the third, who we have learnt is basically the real second, The actual second being missing. Thats like sending the vice president to fight in a war. Thats suprising!

I think envy, if someone other than me feels like looking for it, even says what she expected the first to send. It might help.

As for how skilled Senu and therule are, remeber the lowest of the low seguleh the black masks are considered good enough to defend the island against mekors raids. Mekros we get the impresion are not imbeciles. Also Moks excact words are we dont like it because ,'slaughter stains the mind'. Actually as I just typed that I think he was reffering to the unarmed priests of pannion. So ignore

[Giles]

Cause;362266 said:

I think envy, if someone other than me feels like looking for it, even says what she expected the first to send. It might help.

Envy asks K'rul if he though that the seguleh would send someone as highly ranked as the third and he replies

Quote

Admittedly, no. For this task of splitting the Seer's forces into two fronts. I had expected perhaps three or four hundred 11th level initiates. sufficient to inconvenience the Seer enough to draw an army or two away from the malazans. Yet with the Second missing and with Mok's growing prowess, no doubt the first had his reasons.

and Damn i need to get a new MOI this one is basically loose pages :eek:

[Abyss]

Cause;362266 said:

I disagree with your disagreement! Envy was suprised by who the first sent. But than he sent the third, who we have learnt is basically the real second, The actual second being missing. Thats like sending the vice president to fight in a war. Thats suprising!

I think envy, if someone other than me feels like looking for it, even says what she expected the first to send. It might help.

As for how skilled Senu and therule are, remeber the lowest of the low seguleh the black masks are considered good enough to defend the island against mekors raids. Mekros we get the impresion are not imbeciles. Also Moks excact words are we dont like it because ,'slaughter stains the mind'. Actually as I just typed that I think he was reffering to the unarmed priests of pannion. So ignore

And i disagree with your disagreement to my disagreement.... tho really we're disagreeing to disagree in that we agree on what we're disagreeing about even tho in some respects we agree in our disagreement... :shocked:

Envy states that, iirc, she expected the first to send a few low-level initiates - now obviously it's saying a lot that a few initiates amount to an army from any other nation, but then from my uncertain recollection (quotes someone, anyonefollows that it's not just Mok, but the three of them who present a challenge. That said, it's especially Mok.

You're right in your last recollection - it was the Pannions being puréed. The reference to the Mekros i think was a whole other conversation.

- Abyss, disagreeably.

[Cause]

But baudin has found the post. 400 11th level initiates. Or the third, and two initiates. I therfore stand on my point and offer that initiates are quite low in the ranking. After all 400 people occupy the same level in it and it appears their are more than that even. I maintain that it does not seem a stretch that inititate levels are like graes at school and ranking in the number your actual career.

Still 400 11th initiates seem to me a far greater threat than just drawing away an army or two. Mok and senu and therule did that and their were only three of them.

[Sinisdar Toste]

plus tool, garath, baaljag, and lady envy herself, dont forget!

[Giles]

but those 4 werent part of the punitive army, they just happned to tag along.

[Sinisdar Toste]

im just sayin that they were a large factor in drawing, what was it? four armies? three? away from the north

[eekwibble]

@Abyss - for the second time,

Spoiler

*slaps the cat* Spoilered for the forum Blackmasks

Senu is an 11th level initiate.

Mok tells of the reluctance of the Seguleh to send the 'Blackmasks' to kill the Pannion mages that arrive on the island because of the mental scarring that is possible, so, RIGHT THERE, is your answer to why the kiddies didn't come to fight the cannibalistic, rapist armies of the Seer.

It is also possible that K'rul is wrong and the 1st's decision to send these particular 3 has nothing to with Seg politics or Mok's growing prowess and why the hell would the 1st be interested in splitting the PS's forces AND why send 400 potentials (some to their deaths) when 3 badasses (with far higher survival chances) will do?

The more I think aboot it the more I'm convinced K'rul had it all to cock regarding the Seguleh.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Anyone else think that the punative army would have been proper screwed if they hadn't joined up with Envy and company?

[Tremolo]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;362612 said:

Anyone else think that the punative army would have been proper screwed if they hadn't joined up with Envy and company?

You mean with no healing and magical protection? They would have had to be a bit more subtle in their approach yes. Perhaps even to the extent of using guerilla tactics. If that is possible for a Seguleh.

[Tapper]

They may have also employed a different tactic, or travelled without slaughtering everything in their way until given proper offense (like looking at Mok for more than 0.26 seconds, or raising an eyebrow, or saying 'hello').

Anyway, Envy herself and her dogs aren't all that inconspicuous. The Seguleh might kill a bit here and there but their mission was to get to the Seer and I guess they would have started killing stuff only when at the palace gates, or possibly after being granted an audience.

Quote

It is also possible that K'rul is wrong and the 1st's decision to send these particular 3 has nothing to with Seg politics or Mok's growing prowess and why the hell would the 1st be interested in splitting the PS's forces AND why send 400 potentials (some to their deaths) when 3 badasses (with far higher survival chances) will do?

K'rul was wrong. That being said: 400 seguleh are an army. 3 seguleh, no matter their level, are just a party. You can ambush parties, drop rocks on them, and when an accident, earthquake, foreign food or infection kills one, you just lost 1/3 of your expedition.
It was an unprecedented move.
Mok might indeed be far more able to survive a full-out battle than a company of 11th initiates. He still is susceptible to all other kinds of nasty dealings.

As for rankings among the Seguleh: we don't know how many levels of Initiates there are above Blackmask (at the least 14), we don't know how advancement is organized, we don't know the numbers Seguleh can deploy (is 400 initiates like 75% of that level, or only 2-3% or even less?) and we don't know how many Seguleh of singular rank are walking around.
All in all, our conclusions will be off the mark and are personally biased anyway

[Cause]

eekwibble;362406 said:

@Abyss - for the second time,

Spoiler

*slaps the cat* Spoilered for the forum Blackmasks

Senu is an 11th level initiate.

Mok tells of the reluctance of the Seguleh to send the 'Blackmasks' to kill the Pannion mages that arrive on the island because of the mental scarring that is possible, so, RIGHT THERE, is your answer to why the kiddies didn't come to fight the cannibalistic, rapist armies of the Seer.

It is also possible that K'rul is wrong and the 1st's decision to send these particular 3 has nothing to with Seg politics or Mok's growing prowess and why the hell would the 1st be interested in splitting the PS's forces AND why send 400 potentials (some to their deaths) when 3 badasses (with far higher survival chances) will do?

The more I think aboot it the more I'm convinced K'rul had it all to cock regarding the Seguleh.

Mok is third, senu and therule are thirteenth and eleventh level initiates. I reckon the 400 11th level initiates would make for a better force. To be honest I dont care how good you are, 3 men cant fight an army. However what and how the punitive expedition with tool and envy fought the pannion domain is not really well covered. I always felt liek they must be dealing with company level forces. Theirs just no way 4 swordsmen an archer a mage and dog can hold of the combined attacks of 1000 men at once

[Tapper]

Except that 1000 men can't reach 4 others and a walking corpse (and two dogs) all at the same time.

The Seguleh + Envy can only be reached/ surrounded by maybe six to eight men each, less if those need space to move. This is unlikely to happen, for safety in ranks in most melee-orientated units lies with maintaining the (line) formation (known fact: 20th century & modern-day soldiers under fire have a tendency to bunch together even when they know they should spread out). Exhaustion would probably be Seguleh's greatest foe. It takes quite a fanatical devotion to sacrifice yourself in order to just slow someone down so another guy can score a hit.

Envy is a sorceress of appalling power, and likely has an easy time throwing scything magic around through enemy ranks before they can even see what haircolour she has (though there was mention of a cavalry charge coming close).

What I would hate to face being a Seguleh would be a hail of arrows, though, wearing only leather and not having a shield...

[Cause]

First off you cant block attacks frrom eight guys. And even if you could you could not attack back. But if you could their would be a few hundred in the wings. Throw in shields and seguleh are in trouble. And as you said cavalry, crossbows arrows magic etc.

1 man against ten is impossbile. The odds are just imposible. 100 against a thousand is do-able.