[Holsety]

Quote

I am probably mistaken, But aren't the women from the tribe, also from the tribe that wrote on the cave wall that the 3 pure bloods found? Icarium seperated the tribes. Also, I have a hard time believing that the timeline is inconsistent...SE has a main character who's sole misson in life seems to track and measure time....

Icarium is obsessed with measuring time using external machines, presumably because of his inability to facilitate personal continuity from day to day. In some ways, it's reminiscent Leonard, the protagonist of the film Memento, who leaves permanent markings on his own skin and on notes to give himself a sense of purpose and continuity from day to day. I'm not suggesting that Iccy is based on Leonard but the idea of a "sidekick" who knows the true story of his charge. There are a number of other similarities between mappo/veed and leonard's cop friend (whatever his name is) as well: both iccy and leonard come to distrust them eventually, as well as the change from a benevolent guardian to a controlling and manipulating one (even mappo, though not using icarium, suffers much of the guilt for icarium's rages).

Both Icarium, and leonard, are unable to find "truth" from their attempts to track the passage of time and their own lives. Through Icarium, Erikson is actually refuting the use of a grand "timeline" in finding the real truths of his epic, and responding to the attempts of his detractors who focus on small technicalities to criticize his work, which has higher concerns than simply presenting a perfectly plotted world.

[/humor]

[Obdigore]

I like the 'prologue is after the book events' theory.

IE, what if the end of ToTH has karsa, 10 years later, going home, finally?

Perhaps the entire book is Kruppe, K'rul, and the other person sitting by the fire telling their 3 tales, intertwining them to make up the 3 main storys of this book? I could see it happening.

[Venerus]

Bent;267996 said:

@ tattooed-hand- I disagree, I am pretty sure that Iccy took all of the tribes and split them up to weaken them, and only Karsa's tribe is "pure".

Wait wait wait... really!?? I always assumed that Icarium's plan was to *save* the TTT, not weaken them. Grr, I lent out my HoC *this very morning* or I could grab the quote. Basically, isn't there a whole bunch of stuff about purifying the TTT blood again? And isn't the inscription on the wall about how the writer did a seemingly bad thing but gasp! it was actually super good?

If I'm remembering it right, it sounded a *lot* like the TTT were all getting inbred and genetically messed up (from being too civilized, apparently), so Icarium designed a plan to mix up and then scatter the tribes (genetic diversity #1 yay!) and then have each of those mixed groups periodically rape each other (genetic diversity #2 yay!). The plan wouldn't work if only one group was supposed to get pure blood out of that -- mixing groups w/rape was integral to the plan. Can't really have one tribe raping their pedigree up to snuff whilst the rest continue to degenerate, that just makes no Mendelian sense. By definition, the gain is in the addition of genetic material from distant tribes/groups.

Oh and ALSO!!! Karsa is shocked to learn that even the Uryd has birthed kiddies from other tribes' men raping the Uryd women -- it seems like it's just a thing all TTT women do up on the Laerderon plateau -- get raped, raise children as Uryd or Rathyd etc.

So neener. I choose to believe Icarium couldn't have been playing favorites.


Unless the TTT don't have genes or don't inherit [some of] the features of their parents. But that's silly. No fantasy series would ever do that >_>

[Sinisdar Toste]

i agree with Venerus on this, Icariums purpose in bringing the Teblor to Laederon was to save the TTT species.

also @ obdi, could very well be that Karsa got dropped off way down south of something and doesn't make it home till later, but ten years would be pushing it, unless its after everythings been resolved

[VampireGoat]

First off

Hi im new

Now to point.

As it's been discussed under logical terms, these girls are still very young and unless there has been a large skip forward in time since reapers gale which is possible but isn't to probable. Now at the end of BH a certain group of characters left 7 cities for genebakis or however its spelt, it's only fair to assume they will arrive, or have arrived already as hinted at in the later part of the prologue with kruppe. Now unless they have taken the extreme scenic route and took time to stop off in multiple warrens and have a few beach holidays along the way, mappo, pusk and co will have arrived at the very latest some time during RG. Going under the assumption these characters are involved in the story that would set the story as taking place at about 1165-1166 BS.

Now to the real point...

If the year is 1165-1166 and karsa's 'slash hack hump & run' spree took place at 1159 then the girls can be no older then 6-7. If we allow for an addition couple of years and for the chance that TTH is set after RG by then a week, the girls still won't be more then 8-9 years old. There is enough material in HoC to suggest that Teblor count years like everyone else, since it has indeed been centuries by human standards since karsa's grandad came down on the human town and made a mess before running home. If teblor years are indeed somewhat akin to dog years then karsa's grandad will need to be in his 1000's. He could well be im at work and dont have a book at hand but im sure that wasn't the case.

Therefore after a load of pointless rambling I conclude that 'I think' the girls at most range between being 6-9, hardly adulthood by anyone save certain races of small fury animals etc.

This is all going on some pretty massive assumption btw, which im sure is going to eventaully lead to me shooting myself in the foot, probably with some big and explosive to.

Now to the true real point....

The only hint we have that these girls are possibly reaching some form of adulthood despite all logical sense is the line 'still a year or more from their nights of passage into adulthood'. Thats all lovely but what does it mean? There are a few problems I have with that sentance in general.

First off 'nights of passage' hinting at more then one

Makes it sound to me that reaching adulthood or at least starting adulthood in teblor society(dare i call it that?) isn't a matter of WEHAY! TIS MY 18TH BDAY LIeK! I IS NOW A (WO)MAN! I CAN DWINK! ETC ETC(don't ask about the caps and drunk spelling i just don't know). Of course they could be mark the passage of a years living with a birth week, but personally i think that sounds silly.

We also know how many tribal cultures in the malazan books like to have rituals etc for becoming adults ie a period in the ground. We know very little about teblor culture but knowing our beloved author I'd put money on them having all the rituals and stuff of all the tribes.

Our nights of passage into adulthood could easily be a reference to them undertaking some sort of procedure in order to show they are ready to start walking the path of adulthood that all teblor take at a certain age.

eg HAHA! You are now 10!! you must now take the customary BIG SOAPY BATH ! wish clean thou childishness and begin learning to be a man! MWHAHAHA (manic laughing is needed)

Im willing to bet 'nights of passage to adulthood' is when a teblor starts learning to be a man as apposed to just being a kid and playing all day. eg the boys start being taught to swing a sword/axe/club and women are taught to do things like cook clean etc.

Other problems I have

Mr Erikson is known for letting characters have opinions and points of view that are 200% false and not letting you know that. I believe their are definet points where Bottle and Udinass have entertained ideas of how certain gods work and what the big deal is and while talking like it was gospal, were infact waffling gibberish. This piece of prolouge seems to shift betweeen dog point of view girls point of view and a 3rd party observer. The point is what are girls to one person are women to another. Of course whatever would consider teblor children to be women would of course consider the dog to be some sort of massive fury tank so this arguement is pretty weak. Infact im really pulling at strings here but nevermind its still a thought.

Our 'girls' being refered to as 'women' is the true spanner in the works for everything I've typed. I really wish I could offer a good counter to this but I can't. damn. Infact I wish I had a good arguement to begin with, oh well.

Thats enough for 1 post I believe (or 5)

[Flawed]

Aptorian;266357 said:

2) Karsa lived in Raraku A LOT longer than it seems. But that doesn't make sense either, since Leoman states that Karsa has only seen 17 summers. If Karsa had lived long enough in the dessert for his daughters to just mature a bit, he had to have stayed there for decades.

Flawless........

It is a strange one.

Perhaps Leoman has known Karsa for 17 years. Ant the 17 years he is referring to and making a bit point about are the 17 years Karsa has survived and lived within Rakaru. Which in itself no mean feat.

In HOC i was under the impression that Karsa was about 80 odd?

Lets say Karsa travelled around before Rarkaru for a year or two before hand. So he has been away for about 19 years.

So the Daughters would be around 18. Depending on the general gestation period for Teblor which i suppose could be a year as they are so massive?

Anyhow. What's to say that Teblor women mature faster then the men? Over the years of hardship and forced gene pool spreading it was probably a necessity to mature faster to have babies quicker etc.

You only have to look at the Tiste Edur to see a similar case where the men take a while to come to maturity while the women are much, much sooner.

Perhaps the right to adulthood for women is when they experience their first bleed or have sex for the first time or some such?

I get the distinct impression that the girls are very competent through their preparations and have purpose. Something usually associated with older more mature, experienced people.

Just to throw a spanner in the works. What's to say that time within the Nascent realm that Karsa and whathisface spent time in doesn't travel slower or some jazz like that? It would give the girls the extra growing time and give reason for the time discrepancies that we see if we think about girls maturing at the same rate and the men still in teblor land.

So. In conclusion i thin that the whole 17 years thing is in reference to Karsas time in Rakaru. The amount of ears at his belt isn't enough to include all he has done before. So in coming to Rakaru and following Leoman for a time he started a fresh.

Teblor women mature faster like the Edur and that is why they are coming to age.

Handsome.......

[Aptorian]

I know I made the above theory, but the problem is that they hear about the fall of Pale while on the Malazan ship.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Aptorian;266357 said:

2) Karsa lived in Raraku A LOT longer than it seems. But that doesn't make sense either, since Leoman states that Karsa has only seen 17 summers. If Karsa had lived long enough in the dessert for his daughters to just mature a bit, he had to have stayed there for decades.

As far as I can tell, the simplest explanation is either that Karsa saw 17 summers in Raraku, or that his 80+ Teblor years are roughly equivalent to 17 human years. Personally, I prefer the first option since it is more poetic, and it fits the notion of Raraku marking a significant change in people's lives--remember that the Bridgeburners were born in Raraku (despite being adults when they went in), and so too with Tavore's legions. The two aren't mutually exclusive, of course, but given the information that we have--and not having read the TtH prologue yet--it seems to me like the best, simplest, and most consistent explanation.

[Ellestra]

Obdigore;268026 said:

IE, what if the end of ToTH has karsa, 10 years later, going home, finally?

10 years later or 20. It doesn't matter. It takes 80 for Teblors to mature.
No matter how you squint it doesn't fit.

[Aptorian]

well obviously... YOU'RE NOT SQUINTING HARD ENOUGH!

[Ellestra]

Aptorian;269775 said:

well obviously... YOU'RE NOT SQUINTING HARD ENOUGH!

HEY I can almost see the insides of my eye sockets!

[Abyss]

'Almost' isn't good enough.
Try clearing some space with a grapefruit spoon.


- Abyss, squint facilitator.

[polishgenius]

I'm going with the "timeline does not matter" (the whole thing seems to go squiffy around Karsa in particular any roads - this isn't the first issue that's come up if I recall correctly, quite apart from the 80/17 years thing there was something about his length of stay in Raraku) for now, but I'd like to say that Broods theory on Karsa's father isn't entirely implausible, since the toddlers mentioned could be Karsa's actual daughters. It would seem rather odd considering the parents mentioned and other issues, but who knows?

[Aptorian]

polishgenius;269826 said:

but I'd like to say that Broods theory on Karsa's father isn't entirely implausible, since the toddlers mentioned could be Karsa's actual daughters. It would seem rather odd considering the parents mentioned and other issues, but who knows?

The daughters are Karsas. There's no way around that, reread the prologue and it's painfully clear.

[Shazbot]

I'm confused by all these theories. Didn't Karsa just rape the woman any number of years ago? On a random raid and rape to another part of the teblor territory? Why is everyone assuming he raped the woman the year he left? I thought it was pretty clear that she was one of his earlier victories. And when Leoman said Karsa was 17, it's like dog years. A dog is ancient when he's 10, even though that would be a brat by human standards. Karsa's a teenager for a Teblor, even though he's 80.

[Aptorian]

In HoC, when him and Bairoth and Delum enter the village of the warriors the elude, Karsa only choses the leader of the women and her daughter. There is also some hint, I believe, of the seed impregnating them.

When you then in the prologue hear of two women, mother and daughter, looking after their own daughters, trekking out to search for their father... well, there's few coincidences in Eriksons work.

[Shazbot]

thanks, but who says the two girls belong to the mother with that crying daughter? Was that mother the first woman Karsa banged? Hell, they were born a few days apart. How could they be from the same mother?

hehe, we don't even know if that mother even gave birth. All we know is that karsa impregnated that mother, and that those two daughters are his but could have come from another mother.

Anyway, first time I post but I get the impression it's like religious debates.

[Aptorian]

It is, especially when you're debating specifics, we like quotes that back up arguments:

They are not born of the same mother but this quote also suggests that they have the same father:

TtH Prologue:

Quote

There was a similarity to their features, and in their ages they were a close match, the time of their births mere days apart. Neither could be said to be loquacious. They shared the silent language common among twins, although they were not twins, and it seemed that, for them, this language was enough.

Quote

Back in the village, a mother and daughter were told of the flight of their children. The daughter wept. The mother did not. Instead, there was heat in a low place of her body, and, for a time, she was lost in remembrances.

p. 65, HoC

Quote

An hour before dusk, and Karsa led the last of the prizes towards the house - the chiefs daughter.

Quote

"Mother said you were surprisingly gentle."

p. 66, HoC.

Quote

Within her, as within her mother, Karsa's Orlongs seed found a home.

[Raraku]

Maybe the daughters r Bairoth s.
just throwing out there as an option
remember that he was fooling aroung with that girl who Karsa liked
probabaly not but just maybe

[Lister of Smeg]

Bairoth was supposed to have got Dayliss pregnant, but those children are without doubt Karsa's children from the women in HoC.