[Spinnok D Is The Man]

Ok I have a question - I have not read the series in a while - and i JUST started last week GoTM to re-read the entire series again.

So without reading through pages - and with all yall's vast knowledge - here is my question.

Karsa starts out on his journey to slay children and in general rape and pillage.

It is generally accepted(and if I recall this will prolly be shot down pretty quick) that it was a fairly short journey down off the plateau.

That said - is it possible Karsa started his journey and raped the women of the village much earlier than when he finally reached the edge of the plateau and left teblor territory?

As in the journey-time from his home to the edge of the pleateu took him 10 years or something.

The assumption is, his goal being to kill children, he took a straight path - is it possible he took a long cirictious passage and it just took longer? Even if it was only 4 or 5 years it is a LITTLE more believable these girls are 10 or 11 as oppossed to 5 or 6.

[Aptorian]

It is implied that the daughters mothers are the two from HoC. Anything is possible, but your theory is unlikely.

[Powder]

Ive been doing a HoC re-read recently and this struck me as odd when I read this in my original read of TTH. Now I know in some cultures within the world as we know it have very different 'ages of maturity'. For instance in ancient semetic societies it was not uncommon for women to be considered of age to be married at 13, while the man would be 28. For the sake of argument lets say that at extremes it could be 10 and 30. So for a man to be considered mature and ready to marry he must be 3x the age of the woman in question.

Then take into account that Karsa spent 17 summers within Rarraku. Add in a couple of years factored into getting there. Sha'ik elder had grown very old, 40 something, in the desert. Who says Karsa was not there for a good chunk of that.

I would like to disregard the fall of pale/original dates given in the HoC piece. I would much rather shirk a line or two than a character. Chalk those two lines in HoC up to shortsightedness.

As for fiddler's age, he was the piano player in Kellanved's bar, he gets the same age rights as Surley, WJ, Dassem etc.

EDIT: In summation, women are considered mature 3x faster than men in this society. Karsa's kids are in their 20's. Lines about the fall of pale and original dating are Karsas decent from the plateau are rejected for great justice.

This post has been edited by Powder: 20 May 2009 - 04:09 AM

[Leadslinger]

I didn't read through all the pages. But, in some societies men and women come of age at DIFFERENT ages. Women could come of age younger than men.

[Abyss]

So, to sum up:

1) Dog years; and,
2) Magic Teblor genes.


- Abyss, doesn't look a day over 168...

This post has been edited by Abyss: 21 May 2009 - 01:38 AM

[Powder]

Abyss, on May 20 2009, 09:37 PM, said:

So, to sum up:

1) Dog years; and,
2) Magic Teblor genes.


- Abyss, doesn't look a day over 168...

I prefer women coming of age (sociologically speaking) 3x faster than men. Karsa spending 17 years in raraku. His girls being 20 somethings.

This of course tosses out the date of karsa's plataeu departure and the mention of the fall of pale.

[KeithF]

Also, Karsa was considered a proper warrior at 80, not an adult. Maybe it takes a long time to qualify as a proper warrior. (Someone may have already said this.)

[Rahvinn]

Im curious how people got 17 years from Karsas time in Rakuraku(whatever)

Ages:
When you first meet Paran in GoTM he sees Whiskeyjack and Fiddler on the roof, Fiddler is not much older than Paran(Paran says so) and Fiddler had the fiddle so its after Dassem fell(also mentioned by Paran) but very soon after
Whiskeyjack also outranked Dujek before the inversion, and Dujek was Dujek Twoarm still I reckon
Soon after Sorry is born and a 3(?) years later she's stil a rectruit outside Pale
>few years pass, Pale, Darij, Capustan, Coral, end of Bridgeburners, back to Darij

Torvald Nom; cant recall how long he tells Tis he's gone but from when he leaves Karsas company and shows up in Darij is severely doubt 17 years have passed

Plus for all we know of the child cycle of a Teblor they could be born 20lb+ in weight(Teblor are big girls) and grow to 5 or 6 feet within very few years
Their stature as 'girls' probably surpassed human womens full grown height

[D'rek]

TtH is just awful for timelining. Harllo can't be 5, the daughters can't be more than 3 or so, the Skathandi existed before the start of the Pannion war somehow, people walk in a couple days distances it took supreme mage-aided groups months to cross in MoI, and Bellurdan met Hairlock in the span of a few hours in the Abyss, but took years to get out...

And if you try to justify any of the above it wreaks havoc on Spite and co. getting there or Spinnock going to Assail or Brood dispersing his army or any number of other things.

The answer, of course, is that Harllo and the daughters all fast-growing dragons like Rud Elalle...

[Aptorian]

Rahvinn, on May 21 2009, 05:41 PM, said:

Im curious how people got 17 years from Karsas time in Rakuraku(whatever)

I believe it is Leoman who boasts to Kalam that Karsa is a Toblakai of 17 summers who's killed so and so many people.

People have since tried to make sense out of that number to fit with Karsa's age and the daughters growth.

Rahvinn, on May 21 2009, 05:41 PM, said:

When you first meet Paran in GoTM he sees Whiskeyjack and Fiddler on the roof, Fiddler is not much older than Paran(Paran says so) and

Fiddlers age is a mystery but he was more than just a few years older than Paran- Paran was still a kid, less than ten probably. Fiddler was probably 18 or something like that. And no, that doesn't make any sense compared with Fiddler and WJs past.

Rahvinn, on May 21 2009, 05:41 PM, said:

Fiddler had the fiddle so its after Dassem fell(also mentioned by Paran) but very soon after

How do you know its very soon after? According to the timeline, WJ and crew had most likely been sent to Genebackis before the burning of the Mouse, so a lot of years could theoretically had passed between the trek through raraku and the battle for the last Holy City.

Rahvinn, on May 21 2009, 05:41 PM, said:

Whiskeyjack also outranked Dujek before the inversion, and Dujek was Dujek Twoarm still I reckon

Dujek lost his arm to Bulk (That was his name right?) in the Wickan wars when Kelanved and co were trying to unify Quon, so most likely he already lost his arm at the time.

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

TtH is just awful for timelining. Harllo can't be 5

I'll chalk that down to the history books being old and the imaginary author of the Malazan Book of the Fallen, having to stretch time. 3 years, 4 years, meh... It's okay with me.

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

, the daughters can't be more than 3 or so,

Not true. We discussed Karsa's travels early in this thread. They could be as old as 7 or 8 maybe even more if time was really odd in Nascent and time is stretched between Karsa's travels on 7C and his time on the Edur ship.

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

the Skathandi existed before the start of the Pannion war somehow,

Who were the Skathandi again? Some tribe living in the Panion area? It was a big place after all...

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

people walk in a couple days distances it took supreme mage-aided groups months to cross in MoI, and

I'm guessing you're referring to Karsa, Dassem and Dev? She spent a long time tracking down Karsa, meets Dassem, still uses week finding the guy, then uses probably months reaching Darujistan.

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

Bellurdan met Hairlock in the span of a few hours in the Abyss, but took years to get out...

What? I'm not sure what you're implying or what you mean-

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

And if you try to justify any of the above it wreaks havoc on Spite and co. getting there or Spinnock going to Assail or Brood dispersing his army or any number of other things.

Is there dates referring to when Spinnock takes off and comes back? Three to five years to leave and come back doesn't sound extraordinary to me.

Spite and co were stuck some place because of season storms and what not for what accounts for over a year to a half just in travel time.

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

The answer, of course, is that Harllo and the daughters all fast-growing dragons like Rud Elalle...

Or mules. Fast growing Mulings.

[Rahvinn]

I know its just after Daseems 'death' (im not quoting you Apt, too many qoutes upon quotes in your reply!) because Paran says to Whiskeyjack something 'I heard Dassem died at Y'Ghatan blah blah' and Wiskeyjack claims that never mind only a few people know that, hes a merchants son a thousand leagues away
Its in the first few pages of Gardens of the Moon, and Paran describes Fiddler as being a pock marked fellow not much older than himself
Im having a hard time getting a reading of the Parans age because :

1. Surly has just become Laseen
2. Paran says 'when he grows up', how many teenages says that?
3. This happened when Lorn was a kid, she was a full grown women in later staged of GoTM

[D'rek]

New stuff in Blue.

Aptorian, on May 21 2009, 12:49 PM, said:

Rahvinn, on May 21 2009, 05:41 PM, said:

When you first meet Paran in GoTM he sees Whiskeyjack and Fiddler on the roof, Fiddler is not much older than Paran(Paran says so) and

Fiddlers age is a mystery but he was more than just a few years older than Paran- Paran was still a kid, less than ten probably. Fiddler was probably 18 or something like that. And no, that doesn't make any sense compared with Fiddler and WJs past.


The Fiddler chilling with WJ when they were young makes very little sense, but the rest of it all holds out fairly well, even the Dunsparrow bits (Fiddler could've tossed her on his knee while on leave in Malaz City, or even just before they were sent to Genebackis in the GotM prologue). Age means little as Raraku gave the original Bridgeburners longer life anyways.

Rahvinn, on May 21 2009, 05:41 PM, said:

Fiddler had the fiddle so its after Dassem fell(also mentioned by Paran) but very soon after

How do you know its very soon after? According to the timeline, WJ and crew had most likely been sent to Genebackis before the burning of the Mouse, so a lot of years could theoretically had passed between the trek through raraku and the battle for the last Holy City.

From NoK it is clear that Dassem 'died' at Y'Ghatan, the Mouse Quarter burning and The Return all happened in the same year (or within a year of each other), and in that order. The Aren Uprising (not the one with the T'lan Imass), which lead to Dassem sending the soon-to-be BBs into Raraku after QB and co. was probably at least many years before that, since (a) some time would be needed to quell 7C and retake the Holy Cities (at least 2 went into rebellion) before moving on to Y'Ghatan; and (b ) the BBs, and the Genebackan armies in general, are said to have had veterans of both sides of the Aren Uprising in their ranks...

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

TtH is just awful for timelining. Harllo can't be 5

I'll chalk that down to the history books being old and the imaginary author of the Malazan Book of the Fallen, having to stretch time. 3 years, 4 years, meh... It's okay with me.

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

, the daughters can't be more than 3 or so,

Not true. We discussed Karsa's travels early in this thread. They could be as old as 7 or 8 maybe even more if time was really odd in Nascent and time is stretched between Karsa's travels on 7C and his time on the Edur ship.

But this only works if you start discounting stuff, such as word of the end of the Siege of Pale in HoC. Frankly, time does not seem to be all that stretched in the Nascent (though some folks might spend a few weeks in there without it being written as such) and certainly doesn't go backwards or anything, but this disallows any crazy manipulations of the timeline.

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

the Skathandi existed before the start of the Pannion war somehow,

Who were the Skathandi again? Some tribe living in the Panion area? It was a big place after all...

The Dragnipur-impersonaters, the kingdom on wheels begun shortly after the Pannions conquered some town near Bastion

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

people walk in a couple days distances it took supreme mage-aided groups months to cross in MoI, and

I'm guessing you're referring to Karsa, Dassem and Dev? She spent a long time tracking down Karsa, meets Dassem, still uses week finding the guy, then uses probably months reaching Darujistan.

Optimally, yes, but Samar notes them getting to the Dwelling Plains after only 2 days travelling together, which in turn is a week after Traveller was at Morn, so 80% of the way from Morn to Darujhistan in about 9 days. Nimander and co. go from Monsk (or whatever that town is called) to Bastion in 5 days, then to the bay and on to Coral in about 3 more.

These journeys took months for Envy and co...

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

Bellurdan met Hairlock in the span of a few hours in the Abyss, but took years to get out...

What? I'm not sure what you're implying or what you mean-

It's just bloody convenient

D'rek, on May 21 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

And if you try to justify any of the above it wreaks havoc on Spite and co. getting there or Spinnock going to Assail or Brood dispersing his army or any number of other things.

Is there dates referring to when Spinnock takes off and comes back? Three to five years to leave and come back doesn't sound extraordinary to me.

Spite and co were stuck some place because of season storms and what not for what accounts for over a year to a half just in travel time.

9 months after Capustan, Stonny gives birth to Harllo. Thus, the Jade Statues falling in tBH would leave Harllo about 1, maybe a wee bit older. Spite and co. were delayed first by winter and then unseasonal spring storms, so by the time they could leave 7C for real Harllo would be maybe a bit over 1.5 years old. Considering Kalam, Apsalar, Fiddler and Crokus crossed that very same ocean by booking passage here and there, and they crossed it in 2 months, I don't see how Spite and co. could've taken 4 years to cross Seeker's Deep when they had their own ship with wraiths crewing it and such. Even if Harllo is 3-turning-4 and not 5-turning-6, that's still 2 years for what was previously a 4-month crossing. And there's no way Harllo is 1-turning-2, he's not Bean...

[Aptorian]

D'rek, on May 22 2009, 07:15 PM, said:

D'rek, on May 22 2009, 07:15 PM, said:

the Skathandi existed before the start of the Pannion war somehow,

Apt said:

Who were the Skathandi again? Some tribe living in the Panion area? It was a big place after all...

The Dragnipur-impersonators, the kingdom on wheels begun shortly after the Pannions conquered some town near Bastion

Whoah... whoah... holy crap, never mind all this timeline stuff!

How the hell did I never see the obvious similarities between the the Skathandi wagon and the wagon within Dragnipur?

This just made the whole beginning of Karsa's TTH part so much more significant. I have to do some reflection on that.

Mind blown completely.

[MTS]

Me too, I never noticed that. That does make Karsa's journey much more significant.

*mind left in tatters in back of head*

[Salamander Cake]

Don't ask questions, just enjoy the Erikson and keep your mouth shut

Edit: removed the ozzy

This post has been edited by Salamander Cake: 27 August 2009 - 08:26 PM

[Aptorian]

That kind of offtopic stuff is unfortunately not allowed in the book forums, salamander.

[Salamander Cake]

Aptorian, on Aug 27 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

That kind of offtopic stuff is unfortunately not allowed in the book forums, salamander.

aw man....seriously? Where's the kicks dirt/aw shucks emoticon?

[Felisin Fatter]

My ideas:
1 - The babies were invested with whatever it is she does, by Siballe (she's the bonecaster, right?). Soletaken would be the obvious choice, but who knows. This causes them to mature much faster. She might have decided Karsa's baby was a better bet than Dayliss' one after all. Or took them all.
2 - Or, Teblor women (similar to Edur) have a magic of their own, and they either did something to the kids (like put a geas on them?) or took a piece of Karsas soul and put it in them. Leading to them growing in power as their father does.
3 - Or, they are just the typical Erikson-style extremely precocious kids (see Harllo and there's a kid in FoD who is also described as 5 but acts and thinks like at least 12). And Teblor grow as tall as humans even faster than humans, but after that they slowly keep growing and filling out for a lot longer?

The 'seventeen' years quote by Leoman must have been a complete fabrication by him. My guess is he is trying to get a response out of Karsa (to find out something about him, like his actual age), by calling him a baby basically That seems in character.

[DaddyDraconus]

Well lets take into account its a fairly common trope in fantasy that longer lived races (dragons elfs and possibly in this case Toblakai's ) Psychically mature at analogous rates to normal human maturation until they reach well erm.. maturity. So say a 21 y/o dwarf is similar to a 200 y/o dwarf in physical growth. Another trope is these same species take much longer to mentally mature so that said same dwarf would still be protected and considered a "child" and trained until like 50- 60. In this way it is possible that a Toblakai grows to physical maturation quickly but not be considered a warrior until much later like their 80th b-day.
Now with females in the malazan world their entrance to womanhood has usually be ascribed to receiving their first menstrual cycle.
So since the daughters where a year off from that would it not be possible they are about 11 - 13 when they set out after dear old dad. With the confusion being the difference between physical maturity and when a Toblakai is considered mentally mature enough to be a warrior?


This all comes with of course the disclaimer of the timeline is not important or likely accurate as its an authors imagination and not real life so its susceptible to error.