[Bent]

Im glad we're on this subject...why do you guys expect Paran to run...He's shown the ability to summon god's throught the deck... i.e. Hood, Poliel and ST... why if Rake came after him, not summon mother dark and have her spank little rakes bottom and take his sword... All i guess I'm saying is that paran has shown some pretty powerful times...i don't think he has much to worry about.

[Aptorian]

Because Mother Dark is an elemental force and therefore not bound by the laws of the deck?

But yeah, I doubt Paran would run, or rather I doubt Erikson would write such a story, but this is Erikson. Anything can happen but lost likely the very thing no one expects.

So Paran summons Wolverine.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Bent;223857 said:

Im glad we're on this subject...why do you guys expect Paran to run...He's shown the ability to summon god's throught the deck... i.e. Hood, Poliel and ST... why if Rake came after him, not summon mother dark and have her spank little rakes bottom and take his sword... All i guess I'm saying is that paran has shown some pretty powerful times...i don't think he has much to worry about.

what is the deck (and tiles for that matter) all about on a complete aside. Its definitely one of the most underdescribed things in the series. I mean, besides describing the pantheon structure, predicting possible outcomes of events and taking out the occasional scale bear, what has it really done in the grand scheme?

I mean, doesn't it react to the pantheon and not the other way around?

[Bent]

Maybe in the beginning, but since a MotD was recognized, it levels the playing field. I've noticed that when Paran summons a god or ascendent, they come running. shadowthrone tried to ignore it, but was pretty much forced to show. My opinion is this, the cards are just a means to an ends, want to see the future... lay a field, or in Fid's case invent a game. But as the MotD, Paran has unopposed power in the mortal realm. Don't forget, he had to allow the CG into the Pantheon. so this shows that the Pantheon reacts to the deck.

[ch'arlz]

Bent;223880 said:

Don't forget, he had to allow the CG into the Pantheon. so this shows that the Pantheon reacts to the deck.

Not really. He still had the choice whether or not to let the CG into the Pantheon, so at most this shows the deck reacts to the future Pantheon.
And I think Fiddler does more than just play games...

[Aptorian]

I think the deck is more or less a structure of power. A system of order. The imposition of control upon raw powers that otherwise would flow naturally.

First there was elemental forces and wandering.

Then there were Elder Gods and Holds. Probably also Deck of Dragon type Tile Gods that sat on their thrones in racial warrens and places of spiritual, ritualistic worship.

Now there are Kings and Houses... (and dragons that we don't quit know how fits in to everything)

As a system it's like saying.
Elemental forces wandering = The atlantic Ocean
Holds = The Amazon river.
Houses = Well enginered canals easy to direct and control.
A mages warren = a water tap in the backyard.

So what is the deck when you use it? A palm pilot that shows the current flow and pressure in the pipes and the overall status of the water grid.

I'm not sure I'm making any sense here.

[Bent]

i might agree that the use of the deck is like the so cqlled palm pilot, but i think thats general use...I'm talking Paran's use...and in my opinion, he's like a dam operator, can open and close the gates at will, and choses to allow a certain barge or two into the mortal realm

~Bent probably isn't making sense but sure likes pretending he's smart.

[cerveza_fiesta]

I like your water references because it goes back to my idea / crazy theory I had about warren pressure causing magic flow. A lack of shadow magic on wu for example (low shadow pressure) allows a mage to open a tap from the shadow realm (high shadow pressure) and use himself like a hose (no sex reference there) to spew forth shadow energy.

But you're right, I forgot about the part where Paran had to allow or disallow the CG into the pantheon and all that. But maybe that didn't have to do with him allowing the CG to have power and more to do with whether the deck would concern him or not. Paran wanted to have some say in the CG's dealings, so he let him in instead of CG being a loose unconstrained force.

[Lisheo]

The thing is, the CG isn't a part of the House of Chains, is he, so did Paran make a mistake there? The CG doesnt occupy a place in the House. I mean, the CG still seems to be "kicking the board" as Gruntle so aptly put it in MoI, helping the Seven of the Dead Fires escape, getting Withal to make the Sword, saving Karsa from the ship in HoC etc. He doesnt seem particularly constrained.

[Cougar]

Lisheo;224213 said:

The thing is, the CG isn't a part of the House of Chains, is he, so did Paran make a mistake there? The CG doesnt occupy a place in the House. I mean, the CG still seems to be "kicking the board" as Gruntle so aptly put it in MoI, helping the Seven of the Dead Fires escape, getting Withal to make the Sword, saving Karsa from the ship in HoC etc. He doesnt seem particularly constrained.

I thought the CG was the King in Chains in the House of Chains?

Kallor the Reaver
Karsa the Kinight etc

[Lisheo]

No, that was Rhulad who was the King in Chains. Now that hes dead, though, I dont know who holds the position, but I dont think its the CG himself.

[Bent]

No, You see the Gods themselves don't hold a position in thier house, they own the house, all paran did was sanction it, kind of like a mayor giving the approval to clear the land or something like that. this allows that particular god to"move in" his knight, king, queen etc. For Instance, hood isn't the king of house death.... he owns the realm. Just like the CG owns the realm of chaos.

[Blend]

Bent;224223 said:

hood isn't the king of house death....

Yeah he is, isn't he?

And how bout Queen of Dreams?

Either way, I thought it was made pretty clear that Paran thought that sanctioning the house would put some rules/limitations on the CG's actions, but this didn't end up being the case specifically because the CG never wanted to be the King in Chains.

[ch'arlz]

cerveza_fiesta;224192 said:

But you're right, I forgot about the part where Paran had to allow or disallow the CG into the pantheon and all that. But maybe that didn't have to do with him allowing the CG to have power and more to do with whether the deck would concern him or not. Paran wanted to have some say in the CG's dealings, so he let him in instead of CG being a loose unconstrained force.

I believe it's as much to keep the rest of the Pantheon off-balance as anything else. It's time for a reread tho.

[Lister of Smeg]

And Shadowthrone and Cotillion. And Rake. Gods do hold positions in the Deck.

But I don't think the CG does. The King in Chains is presumably now a free card, unless the CG already has an idea who to put there (Karsa? Kallor?).

[Bent]

I stand corrected...apologies...I sometimes have a weak moment...this is why i play at the Inn .... can't feel stupid there.

[Blend]

Lister of Smeg;224230 said:

And Shadowthrone and Cotillion. And Rake. Gods do hold positions in the Deck.

But I don't think the CG does. The King in Chains is presumably now a free card, unless the CG already has an idea who to put there (Karsa? Kallor?).

Alright, crazy theory here... So we all know that Kallor destroyed his empire on Jacuruku (right?), and it's made pretty clear that he uses KC technology to do so. So let's imagine that he somehow got that technology through power alliances with some KCCM Matron or with the Short Tails or something, so is on "speaking" terms with someone in that bunch. Fast forward to Lether, after Kallor kills Whiskeyjack and disappears never to be seen again, two KCCM mysteriously show up with Redmask to incite the Awl to rise against Lether, and eventually the Edur, the empire that has raised the King in Chains.

If we remember way back to the time when the CG offered the position to Kallor, then Kallor ended up being the Reaver... But I do also recall the CG telling Gethol that there is room to move in the House of Chains, that he does not have issues with members of the House striving to achieve higher heights.

Anyone see where I'm going? You figure that maybe Kallor was indirectly using the KCCM to get rid of Rhulad, the current King in Chains, so that he can take the position? Seems deliciously canniving to me, and may explain why we haven't seen much of Kallor lately...

[Aptorian]

Blend;224243 said:

Alright, crazy theory here... So we all know that Kallor destroyed his empire on Jacuruku (right?), and it's made pretty clear that he uses KC technology to do so. So let's imagine that he somehow got that technology through power alliances with some KCCM Matron or with the Short Tails or something, so is on "speaking" terms with someone in that bunch. Fast forward to Lether, after Kallor kills Whiskeyjack and disappears never to be seen again, two KCCM mysteriously show up with Redmask to incite the Awl to rise against Lether, and eventually the Edur, the empire that has raised the King in Chains.

If we remember way back to the time when the CG offered the position to Kallor, then Kallor ended up being the Reaver... But I do also recall the CG telling Gethol that there is room to move in the House of Chains, that he does not have issues with members of the House striving to achieve higher heights.

Anyone see where I'm going? You figure that maybe Kallor was indirectly using the KCCM to get rid of Rhulad, the current King in Chains, so that he can take the position? Seems deliciously canniving to me, and may explain why we haven't seen much of Kallor lately...

It's pure nonsense but it is an old crazy theory.

Kallor is describing in MoI what very little his scholars where able to deduce about the KCCM. There's nothing, ever, hinted at of Kallor having actual relations with the KCCM.

Regarding this whole CG plan with the HoC etc.

The CG himself, perhaps in MoI or maybe BH, says that he wanted a house/card. He wanted to be let into the game. The reason for this isn't properly explained since he was able to do WAY more damage when he was just pumping poison into the warrens.

He isn't doing this later because his own house and players would be affected.

The CG doesn't controle the HoC, it's something he's made and now leaves free to evolve or die. It's all up to the players. Like the sword he gave to the Edur and like the broken army on a dead continent he's left to Felisin the Fatter.

All in all I don't understand the CG and I'm really curious about where Erikson is going with the whole thing. As of RG the CG looks pretty weak.

[ch'arlz]

Aptorian;224288 said:

All in all I don't understand the CG and I'm really curious about where Erikson is going with the whole thing. As of RG the CG looks pretty weak.

On the other hand, his plots have substantially weakened other powers, too. Given his ability to maneuver behind the scenes for many years for those plots to come to fruition, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't have new nefariousness up his sleeve.

[Dancer+]

I think Kallor will be the King in Chains, there's just something about his meeting with Gethol and Kallor's personality that will not allow him to not try and obtain higher heights.

I think Blend's idea has legitimacy, except the Kallor having KCCM relations and trying to destroy Rhulad part (I think this is a large part of the theory though) Rhulad was doomed to be destroyed by Karsa, it was part of the CG's plan to engineer this destruction imo, isn't it convenient that the Edur attacked the coast when Karsa was around etc. The CG has been engineering Karsa's personality for a long time, and knew which buttons to press to get him to Lether. Don't underestimate the CG, he's not a one trick pony...so don't think his only plan for Karsa was/is the sword. Now the position of KiC is vacant Kallor will take the reins, or destroy the CG out of spite :heyhey: