[Aptorian]

Hmm but the MT reference to "The child" just said that the dragons loosed the blood in their veins. This child was then ment to have hunted Scabby. I don't remember it actually saying that The child helped kill Scabby...but I do remember it saying Killy killed him.

I really like Kage-za's theory, it's well thought out... and it's thought provoking

On a second note it would explain some things.
A: She shows distain and outright hostility towards Gothos, who I would see as a very powerfull creature in Wu, but against Rake she seems ver hesitant at discovering his presence. This could mean that Rake is really a lot more powerful than we first thought.

B: When ever Rake flies about or engages in battle, people feels it as though a weight decends on them, a force that chills their heart, a terrorising feeling. I always thought this was in part the sword's presence. What if it simply the "Child of Terror" effect?...

C: Only other problem is I remember it siad that Ruin was the one that had drinked deepest from Tiam. Then again maybe Rake's child transformation happened afterwards and he only drank from lower dragons.

[Jorram]

The child of indescribable terror was spawned by the dragons to hunt down Scabandari (if we consider Edur stories have any relevance to reality).

Rake:
a) was not spawned by the dragons.
did not hunt Scabandari down. The RG prologue clearly states that Rake left dealing with Scabandari to Mael and Kilmandaros.

I can't see it fitting at all.

Morever, even if this theory was correct, i completely fail to understand how it solves the Osric/Rake MT/RG inconsistency.

[Lord of Salvation]

umm who relayed this information to the Edur then if Kil and Rake "cleaned" the warren? How do they know these stories, someone had to witness and survive, I doubt word got out by a passer by to the Edur.

[Aptorian]

Jorram;119471 said:

The child of indescribable terror was spawned by the dragons to hunt down Scabandari (if we consider Edur stories have any relevance to reality).

Rake:
a) was not spawned by the dragons.
did not hunt Scabandari down. The RG prologue clearly states that Rake left dealing with Scabandari to Mael and Kilmandaros.

I can't see it fitting at all.

Morever, even if this theory was correct, i completely fail to understand how it solves the Osric/Rake MT/RG inconsistency.

To answer those:
A) Being a child of something doesn't have to mean actual physical birth, it could merely be a reference to being a product of something. Also this is again an edur myth, child could merely be a misinterpretation of the past.

Rake was ment to slay Scabandari. As we hear Gotos, Mael and Killy all expected Rake to come and kill his brothers betrayer. Knowing Rake he could have taken the blood and then just shrugged and said, who cares, let the old ones do the work.

Yes we're reaching but it makes more sense than the child being a player that still hasn't shown up yet. And it would explain why Killy was the one to finish of Scabby and not the child.

[Aptorian]

Lord of Salvation;119496 said:

umm who relayed this information to the Edur then if Kil and Rake "cleaned" the warren? How do they know these stories, someone had to witness and survive, I doubt word got out by a passer by to the Edur.

Could you refraise this? What information was there to relay? Scabby was killed on Lether. Rake and Killy cleaned up in Emurhlan. These two events are not connected.

Also word spreads pretty easily among the old ones it would seem. Their followers and the surviving edur around on Lether would eventually know what had happened.

[Kage-za]

I'm not saying that Rake is actually what the Edur legends make him out to be--I'm just saying he is possibly the inspiration for the false history, so we don't have to look for any new uber-powerful child running around.

Or it's Kettle.

[Jorram]

@Apt - well, but you're taking things out of context Consider "spawned by the dragons to hunt down Scabandari". Are you suggesting that - even if twist the interpretation of spawning and hunting down - Rake was created for this specific purpose? Or imbued by the dragons for this specific purpose?

Personally, I find this idea way too far-fetched to use as a solver of the "child" issue. Of course this is just my personal feeling on the matter, so I'm not saying it's not possible at all...
.. just really implausible

[Illuyankas]

Here's an idea - it's the otataral dragon. The dragons created it, but Kilmandy and Mael finished off Scabby before it could, and then the Soletaken dragons pinned it on the cross to keep it out of the way, or whatever reason they stuck it there. No need for a brand new super-character.

[phart]

Apt;119388 said:

Hmm but the MT reference to "The child" just said that the dragons loosed the blood in their veins. This child was then ment to have hunted Scabby. I don't remember it actually saying that The child helped kill Scabby...but I do remember it saying Killy killed him.

I really like Kage-za's theory, it's well thought out... and it's thought provoking

On a second note it would explain some things.
A: She shows distain and outright hostility towards Gothos, who I would see as a very powerfull creature in Wu, but against Rake she seems ver hesitant at discovering his presence. This could mean that Rake is really a lot more powerful than we first thought.

B: When ever Rake flies about or engages in battle, people feels it as though a weight decends on them, a force that chills their heart, a terrorising feeling. I always thought this was in part the sword's presence. What if it simply the "Child of Terror" effect?...

C: Only other problem is I remember it siad that Ruin was the one that had drinked deepest from Tiam. Then again maybe Rake's child transformation happened afterwards and he only drank from lower dragons.

Yeah Rake's actuall power seems to be up for debate, especially in GOTM, i personally think he is a lot more powerful than illustrated in GOTM, after all he damned near killed three dragons etc, well im sure time will tell.

[Morgoth]

Illuyankas;119536 said:

Here's an idea - it's the otataral dragon. The dragons created it, but Kilmandy and Mael finished off Scabby before it could, and then the Soletaken dragons pinned it on the cross to keep it out of the way, or whatever reason they stuck it there. No need for a brand new super-character.

That's the -i think- most common theory. Also, the OD's magic negating abilities being the reason why Tiam is unable to resurect

Quote

C: Only other problem is I remember it siad that Ruin was the one that had drinked deepest from Tiam. Then again maybe Rake's child transformation happened afterwards and he only drank from lower dragons.

Whether drinking more blood automaticly makes you stronger is up for debate. I very much doubt that is the case. I rather think that the more blood you drink, the more draconean you become. So in a way, Ruin is at this point a dragon who's also a soletaken Andii, rather than the other way around

[Xaspian]

Lord Baelish;117542 said:

Treach doesn't seem to make many good choices, though.

Sorry to drag us back to this, but I always thought that, behind the scenes, the Crippled God was responsible for Treach's ascension.
The CG knew that Trake had nearly gone wild, and wouldn't make a great god, so arranged for him to take on the role of Lord of War.

I'm not trying to claim that Trake works for the Crippled God, only that he might be less effective in the role than Fener was...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Got to disagree there, I see the realignment of gods that included Treach's ascenscion and T & F's return as the handiwork of K'rul (on some level) rather than the CG. I think K'rul is trying to bring back as many old-time players as possible to help him fight the CG.

I see that as much more credible than the CG doing this. It didn't aid the CG in any respect to have Treach move into the empty War God role, and go on to recruit Gruntle to fight the Pannion and Heboric to do whatever Heboric does.

[Chaos]

MecnunK;119045 said:

kickass. I really wanted to meet Kilmandaros the killer of dragons.

Rereading MOI recently and wondered at something. The three Elder Gods who deal with Kallor are supposedly the only ones left. Now whether left means alive or in this realm or what but it does make you wonder, if Kilmandaros is dead then who would have destroyed her.
I'm more inclined it means that they were the only ones in the realm, mainly cos I too wanna see some more Elder God's kick ass.

Hmm as I write this just remembered Mael , of course. Durr. So yeah it's gotta be the latter.

So where did all the other Elder Gods go for a while? My money is on a skiing holiday in Omtose Phellack

[Dolorous Menhir]

There's a quote that says some Elder Gods died in the Fall, which I always thought was a bit weird.

But it would account for the absence of the mysterious Grizzin Farl & Sechul Lath, and Kilmandaros too for that matter, from the main series.

[Abyss]

Iirc, it's a narrative quote in the MoI tat suggests Krul, Drac and Sis are the last three of their kind. But given Mael, at a minimum, shows up down the road, it seems unlikely. I wondered if maybe 'on the continent' might have been an implied qualifier.

Unless Krul, Drac and Sis are a subset of Elder Gods... we don't know that Sis/Nightchill was draconean, and it appears that she wasn't, so the subset isn't 'soletaken EGs'... maybe human aspected, as opposed to Kila and Mael who might be more physical world aspected (say, land and sea)?

- Abyss, the last of his kind. Except for all those others. Damn clones.

[Xaspian]

"Two other Elder Gods were converging on the Kallorian Empire. The decision had been made. The three - last of the Elder - would bring a close to the High King's despotic rule."

It is possible, though it seems unlikely, that they were the last of the elder in the eyes of those who made the decision. Thus, there may have been other surviving Elder Gods, but the three didn't know that. Or not...

And about Treach, I agree that he's probably just inexperienced. But this isn't a very good time to be new to the job, and if he doesn't get his act together, then he's going to struggle. This is what made me feel that the Crippled God was behind it. He'd rather face the inexperienced Trake than Fener, who's used to the job, and already has his Hierarchy of Mortals (Destriant etc.) established.
Trake was killed by KCCM, under the Seer's power, who was manipulated by the CG. The arm torcs that Picker delivered to Gruntle came from the servant of the CG.

I'm probably completely wrong about everything here. I'm just opening up the ideas I had in case they are, in some way, constructive.

[Abyss]

There's the quote indeed... maybe the missing qualifier is 'active' as in these three were the last Elders still mucking about in human matters.

As for Trake, i don't think anyone had planned for Fener to be de'pigged, but once it happened, Krul seems to have nudged Trake into the vacant slot, but even so, Togg and Fanderraybans seem to have superceded the kitty cat. TheWhiskered One is in the HoW as 'The Hunter', while T&F actually occupy the Beast Throne in some sense, overlooking the silliness of a wolf sitting on a big chair.

- Abyss, "the whiskered one..." hee hee...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Iarwain Ben-Adar;119897 said:

And about Treach, I agree that he's probably just inexperienced. But this isn't a very good time to be new to the job, and if he doesn't get his act together, then he's going to struggle. This is what made me feel that the Crippled God was behind it. He'd rather face the inexperienced Trake than Fener, who's used to the job, and already has his Hierarchy of Mortals (Destriant etc.) established.

Whoa, the fall of Fener and the rise of Treach are two totally unrelated things. True, the second required the first to have happened, but they are by no means connected or part of a plan when taken together. Nobody would have predicted Fener's fall at Heboric's hand, I think.

And I don't think the ascension of Treach helped the CG.

Quote

Trake was killed by KCCM, under the Seer's power, who was manipulated by the CG. The arm torcs that Picker delivered to Gruntle came from the servant of the CG.

I'm probably completely wrong about everything here. I'm just opening up the ideas I had in case they are, in some way, constructive.

Ok, I can't really argue with that, except to say that those particular K'ell Hunters may have been under the influence of K'rul somehow, and that the Cripple of HHChains (the artisan who made the torcs) gave them to Picker, not Gruntle, and I don't think that act had anything to do with the CG.

The major point is that the ascension of Treach has helped the enemies of the CG and hindered him at every turn, if I read events correctly (we don't really know how Heboric's actions post-death relate to the CG's plans, if they do at all).

[Dark Mac]

Dolorous Menhir;119859 said:

There's a quote that says some Elder Gods died in the Fall, which I always thought was a bit weird.

But it would account for the absence of the mysterious Grizzin Farl & Sechul Lath, and Kilmandaros too for that matter, from the main series.

It does give us a bit of an answer on whether killing EGs has a major effect, combined with people thinking that K'rul/Sister/Draconus were the last EGs. If EGs can die without people noticing, and EGs have died before, killing other EGs probably doesn't have severe consequences.