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Soldier of Death, Seguleh, T'orrud Cabal Analysis
#202 Guest_Swordbearer_*
Posted 12 May 2006 - 10:34 PM
#1 Tyrant is not Raest, Raest was barrowed by the Tlan Imas with Jagut help then Jagut removed from Gen continent Post rent at Morn but at least 10k+ yrs prev to Dharujistan founding. barrow is rumour only
#2 No date given for how long Tyrant #2 was in control of D but after disapearance Seguleh army moved to Isle and become secularized almost aesthetic refining skills to point it becomes a religeon Seguleh/Shaolin Temple Sword-Fu allso rem Crokus/Cutter comenting on how D had no standing Army at all.
Missing second=Soldier of death. mark on mask red not black? Pigments bleaching been drug around by him for who knows how long at least 60+ yrs maybe.
Skinner conection why Just skinner what about the rest? must be personal IMO no mention of how long CGrd been on Gen cont Anyone?
#3 Cabal of D 2 to 3 k old? wouldn't seem that long to Rake so He wouldn't have been surprised at all if they were that old. I mean How old is Tayshrenn Tatersail was 230+ and remember women always lie about their age after they hit 21
and she didn't look a day over 30 according to Paran and when she became Silverfox he felt like a Pedophile around her when they reunited.
My opini- ow "cut that out hedge"
'I warned ya dont be tossing the munitions in the midden's' nothing is hiding in there I tell ya, Jist look at this mess Fidd would be Pi$$ed
#2 No date given for how long Tyrant #2 was in control of D but after disapearance Seguleh army moved to Isle and become secularized almost aesthetic refining skills to point it becomes a religeon Seguleh/Shaolin Temple Sword-Fu allso rem Crokus/Cutter comenting on how D had no standing Army at all.
Missing second=Soldier of death. mark on mask red not black? Pigments bleaching been drug around by him for who knows how long at least 60+ yrs maybe.
Skinner conection why Just skinner what about the rest? must be personal IMO no mention of how long CGrd been on Gen cont Anyone?
#3 Cabal of D 2 to 3 k old? wouldn't seem that long to Rake so He wouldn't have been surprised at all if they were that old. I mean How old is Tayshrenn Tatersail was 230+ and remember women always lie about their age after they hit 21
and she didn't look a day over 30 according to Paran and when she became Silverfox he felt like a Pedophile around her when they reunited.My opini- ow "cut that out hedge"
'I warned ya dont be tossing the munitions in the midden's' nothing is hiding in there I tell ya, Jist look at this mess Fidd would be Pi$$ed
#203
Dolorous Menhir 
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Posted 12 May 2006 - 10:48 PM
Questions of time.
"#1 Tyrant is not Raest, Raest was barrowed by the Tlan Imas with Jagut help then Jagut removed from Gen continent Post rent at Morn but at least 10k+ yrs prev to Dharujistan founding. barrow is rumour only"
Raest was imprisoned by his own kind, the Imass couldn't overthrow him. Since this would've taken many Jaghut, and they appear to have been eradicated from Genebackis before the Ritual, we are talking 300,000+ years for Raest's imprisonment. Not 10,000.
"Missing second=Soldier of death. mark on mask red not black? Pigments bleaching been drug around by him for who knows how long at least 60+ yrs maybe.
Skinner conection why Just skinner what about the rest? must be personal IMO no mention of how long CGrd been on Gen cont Anyone?"
We have no idea how long the Soldier (who is blatantly a Seguleh Second, though not necessarily the missing Second of MoI) has been in his role. However it is very obviously much longer than 60 years, given how totally out of date his knowledge of Genebackan affairs is.
The Avowed were formed as a response to the Malazan annexation of the d'Avore Realm. Thus there's an upper limit on their ages of 150-200 years (the Empire is 100+, they must've all been fairly old & powerful individuals when taking the Vow, no?). Although I'm not sure, I assume the formation of the Crimson Guard occured at the same time as that of the Avowed. So Hood has been hunting Skinner for no more than ~100 years, if that.
"#3 Cabal of D 2 to 3 k old? wouldn't seem that long to Rake so He wouldn't have been surprised at all if they were that old. I mean How old is Tayshrenn Tatersail was 230+ and remember women always lie about their age after they hit 21 and she didn't look a day over 30 according to Paran and when she became Silverfox he felt like a Pedophile around her when they reunited."
GotM gives the age of Darujhistan as 2000 years old. I don't trust that though, given the general unreliability of such dates, particularly in the first book. If we consider again the Soldier's (obviously old) knowledge of the Cabal, I would say it was older than 2-3k. It doesn't necessarily follow that the current members of the Cabal are as old though.
Tays' age - unknown. I would be surprised if he was superannuated, but he's clearly got some years under his belt, given his strength and the apparent relationship between age and ability to command power. Total guess, I would say 2-500 years, probably in the lower bound of that.
"#1 Tyrant is not Raest, Raest was barrowed by the Tlan Imas with Jagut help then Jagut removed from Gen continent Post rent at Morn but at least 10k+ yrs prev to Dharujistan founding. barrow is rumour only"
Raest was imprisoned by his own kind, the Imass couldn't overthrow him. Since this would've taken many Jaghut, and they appear to have been eradicated from Genebackis before the Ritual, we are talking 300,000+ years for Raest's imprisonment. Not 10,000.
"Missing second=Soldier of death. mark on mask red not black? Pigments bleaching been drug around by him for who knows how long at least 60+ yrs maybe.
Skinner conection why Just skinner what about the rest? must be personal IMO no mention of how long CGrd been on Gen cont Anyone?"
We have no idea how long the Soldier (who is blatantly a Seguleh Second, though not necessarily the missing Second of MoI) has been in his role. However it is very obviously much longer than 60 years, given how totally out of date his knowledge of Genebackan affairs is.
The Avowed were formed as a response to the Malazan annexation of the d'Avore Realm. Thus there's an upper limit on their ages of 150-200 years (the Empire is 100+, they must've all been fairly old & powerful individuals when taking the Vow, no?). Although I'm not sure, I assume the formation of the Crimson Guard occured at the same time as that of the Avowed. So Hood has been hunting Skinner for no more than ~100 years, if that.
"#3 Cabal of D 2 to 3 k old? wouldn't seem that long to Rake so He wouldn't have been surprised at all if they were that old. I mean How old is Tayshrenn Tatersail was 230+ and remember women always lie about their age after they hit 21 and she didn't look a day over 30 according to Paran and when she became Silverfox he felt like a Pedophile around her when they reunited."
GotM gives the age of Darujhistan as 2000 years old. I don't trust that though, given the general unreliability of such dates, particularly in the first book. If we consider again the Soldier's (obviously old) knowledge of the Cabal, I would say it was older than 2-3k. It doesn't necessarily follow that the current members of the Cabal are as old though.
Tays' age - unknown. I would be surprised if he was superannuated, but he's clearly got some years under his belt, given his strength and the apparent relationship between age and ability to command power. Total guess, I would say 2-500 years, probably in the lower bound of that.
#204 Guest_Swordbearer_*
Posted 13 May 2006 - 09:28 AM
Tays allso a Demi-Drek priest ups the anti to 500+
Agree's about the second too bad we dont get to read 'Baruk's Histories' Heya S.E potential book within a book name here.
Agree's about the second too bad we dont get to read 'Baruk's Histories' Heya S.E potential book within a book name here.
#205
GingerBreadMan
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Posted 13 May 2006 - 06:57 PM
I still believe the Skinner-Seguleh Second chase is a personal thing. We have no reason to believe the Avowed won't eventually die and enter Hood's realm. They have lived an extra 50-100 years so far, big deal. Hood doesn't send his soldiers after all of the mages and priests who have extended lifes. Besides if he really had a bone to pick with the Avowed, why wouldn't he go after the Prince himself?
Speaking of the Prince, I really look forward to learning more about him. He has so many powerful allies at his disposal, is he simply a man like Whiskeyjack who inspires loyalty or is he himself very powerful ala military leaders like Rake/Brood/Daseem
Speaking of the Prince, I really look forward to learning more about him. He has so many powerful allies at his disposal, is he simply a man like Whiskeyjack who inspires loyalty or is he himself very powerful ala military leaders like Rake/Brood/Daseem
#206
fan_83
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Posted 13 May 2006 - 09:25 PM
err mages ages extend naturally as does the priests.. so hood has nothing to complain about..
and the avowed thing with skinner is probably personal between the soldier.
and the prince is somewhat like whiskey.. there is no mention of him being an exceptional anything
and the avowed thing with skinner is probably personal between the soldier.
and the prince is somewhat like whiskey.. there is no mention of him being an exceptional anything
#207 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 13 May 2006 - 09:56 PM
Still thing the death cheating bastard quote was exclusion enough...
#208 Guest_Swordbearer_*
Posted 13 May 2006 - 11:13 PM
As per the Prince being unexceptional like W/Jack dont think that. Dujec comented on how WJ could go toe to toe with Dassem and hold his own. Kallor was beat! He was ready to bring down the curtain an join the bleedin Choir'y residue.
Till Hoods meddling caused WJ's leg to shatter that is.
Hood what an Idiot Hope E gets Off'd
Till Hoods meddling caused WJ's leg to shatter that is.
Hood what an Idiot Hope E gets Off'd
#209
GingerBreadMan
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Posted 14 May 2006 - 12:18 AM
Mages/Priests lifespans are not natural, they are a result of their magic. Hence the reason only mages/priests live unnaturally long lives.Avowed have been living an extra 50 years or so, I doubt Hood would view that as a problem. Afterall due to their vow they are in a much better position to send souls to Hood. Every avowed out there has probably sent hundreds of souls Hoods way.
Anyone think perhaps the vow has osmething to do with hood? Perhaps he is empowering them and allowing them to live longer in exchange for a couple hundred souls each?
Whiskeyjack was a mortal, he was a great swordsman but a mortal nonetheless. That was my point, is the Prince a extraordinary mortal or is he something more?
Anyone think perhaps the vow has osmething to do with hood? Perhaps he is empowering them and allowing them to live longer in exchange for a couple hundred souls each?
Whiskeyjack was a mortal, he was a great swordsman but a mortal nonetheless. That was my point, is the Prince a extraordinary mortal or is he something more?
#210
Morgoth
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Posted 14 May 2006 - 09:03 AM
on the topic of Hood.. I just read MT and noticed a quote from Silchas Ruin as he appears in front of Seren Pedac, Hull and that merchant.. Silchas mentions hood, which I think is interesting. Since the Andii has been imprissoned on the continent of Lether since the age of the KC, he must have learned of the god of death prior to the betrayal, yes? So Hood is thus incredibly old.. The Jaghut theory becomes more and more probable.. Unless he is a dragon
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#211 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 14 May 2006 - 09:08 AM
Or an EG, but we knew Hood was very old since Raest knew him as wel, while Raest was imprisoned by his own kind, way before the ritual of Telann.
And if the Vow means immortality, well I guess Hood might start chasing them already. Something to do with the comments of Bauchelain saying necromantic arts were an abuse of Hood's warren.
And if the Vow means immortality, well I guess Hood might start chasing them already. Something to do with the comments of Bauchelain saying necromantic arts were an abuse of Hood's warren.
#212
tiam
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Posted 14 May 2006 - 09:11 AM
GingerBreadMan said:
Mages/Priests lifespans are not natural, they are a result of their magic. Hence the reason only mages/priests live unnaturally long lives.Avowed have been living an extra 50 years or so, I doubt Hood would view that as a problem. Afterall due to their vow they are in a much better position to send souls to Hood. Every avowed out there has probably sent hundreds of souls Hoods way.
Anyone think perhaps the vow has osmething to do with hood? Perhaps he is empowering them and allowing them to live longer in exchange for a couple hundred souls each?
Whiskeyjack was a mortal, he was a great swordsman but a mortal nonetheless. That was my point, is the Prince a extraordinary mortal or is he something more?
Anyone think perhaps the vow has osmething to do with hood? Perhaps he is empowering them and allowing them to live longer in exchange for a couple hundred souls each?
Whiskeyjack was a mortal, he was a great swordsman but a mortal nonetheless. That was my point, is the Prince a extraordinary mortal or is he something more?
Well if you can inspire men to cheat death id say hes either like WJ with the whole loyalty thing and must be a military genios also. I also beleive he isnt an avowed. although likely fair with a sword like WJ hes likely just earnt the loyalty of his men
#213
Dark Mac
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Posted 14 May 2006 - 06:58 PM
Morgoth said:
on the topic of Hood.. I just read MT and noticed a quote from Silchas Ruin as he appears in front of Seren Pedac, Hull and that merchant.. Silchas mentions hood, which I think is interesting. Since the Andii has been imprissoned on the continent of Lether since the age of the KC, he must have learned of the god of death prior to the betrayal, yes? So Hood is thus incredibly old.. The Jaghut theory becomes more and more probable.. Unless he is a dragon
Didn't Silchas show the Fall to Kettle? He seems to keep up on current news.
Danyah said:
Or an EG, but we knew Hood was very old since Raest knew him as wel, while Raest was imprisoned by his own kind, way before the ritual of Telann.
Raest's imprisonment is discussed in MoI's prologue, isn't it? The Imass and the Jaghut worked together on that, and the Ritual occured shortly after.
#214
frank
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Posted 07 June 2006 - 11:56 AM
Helluuu every1
1. Undead seguleh: Doesn't have to been dead not to be updated on mortal kin and D.stan. He could have been away for a long time.... say on Assail?
2. I belive that there is no way the tyrant from D.stan has nothing to do with the one(s?) on Assail. SE has better imagination than to use the same title twice without reason.
3. I belive the seguleh were the army of the tyrant in older days. I also belive that the cabal were his mages, but that there was rivalery between them and the warrior cast, the seguleh. After the tyrant left the mages and the warriors had a non violent fall out and the seguleh left to prepare in what they percived as the right way for the masters return. The second (and maybe a number of lower class seguleh and maybe even mages ) left with the tyrant and ended up on Assail and has been missing since then. On Assail they have evolved through the years and the seguleh has not. Hence his disdain for his mortal kin and the cabal. The cabal, I belive, has mortal lifespans.
4. Dassem is now the first seguleh. (Yes, this is the wild theory.)
5. To become an Avoved I belive the ritual had to include cheating Hood in some way. But can someone please tell me where it says that Hood is out to get CGRD.
6. I belive a "modern" version of the seguleh to be able to trash the Imass on Assail.
7. Disregarding 4., could Dassem have killed the second seguleh and not been interested in taking over?
8. Did the first send his army of three to get killed, wich they probably would have been without help, because Monk was getting close to challenge him? He WAS worried about Monk...
9. Did the tyrant go to Assail or return to Assail when he left D.stan?
1. Undead seguleh: Doesn't have to been dead not to be updated on mortal kin and D.stan. He could have been away for a long time.... say on Assail?
2. I belive that there is no way the tyrant from D.stan has nothing to do with the one(s?) on Assail. SE has better imagination than to use the same title twice without reason.
3. I belive the seguleh were the army of the tyrant in older days. I also belive that the cabal were his mages, but that there was rivalery between them and the warrior cast, the seguleh. After the tyrant left the mages and the warriors had a non violent fall out and the seguleh left to prepare in what they percived as the right way for the masters return. The second (and maybe a number of lower class seguleh and maybe even mages ) left with the tyrant and ended up on Assail and has been missing since then. On Assail they have evolved through the years and the seguleh has not. Hence his disdain for his mortal kin and the cabal. The cabal, I belive, has mortal lifespans.
4. Dassem is now the first seguleh. (Yes, this is the wild theory.)
5. To become an Avoved I belive the ritual had to include cheating Hood in some way. But can someone please tell me where it says that Hood is out to get CGRD.
6. I belive a "modern" version of the seguleh to be able to trash the Imass on Assail.
7. Disregarding 4., could Dassem have killed the second seguleh and not been interested in taking over?
8. Did the first send his army of three to get killed, wich they probably would have been without help, because Monk was getting close to challenge him? He WAS worried about Monk...
9. Did the tyrant go to Assail or return to Assail when he left D.stan?
#216
frank
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Posted 07 June 2006 - 12:57 PM
After reconcidering a bit and reading the "tyrant "thread, I would guess that the cabal was powerhungry or wanted freedom from the tyrant, and duped the seguleh into going away and to prepare against the tyrant coming back to take their new freedom away from them all. At the same time that would help them to keep a low enough profile for the tyrant to stay away. They might be using soulshifting or something similar since they are referred to as undying.
Beeing powerhungry doesn't mean that you are very powerful (in a combat that is ). D.stan seems to favor using your head and manipulating, not just killing. So the cabals interest/power is probably in knowledge and related things.
But what was special with Morn so that the 2nd reacted as he did?
And why did the tyrant leave?
Beeing powerhungry doesn't mean that you are very powerful (in a combat that is ). D.stan seems to favor using your head and manipulating, not just killing. So the cabals interest/power is probably in knowledge and related things.
But what was special with Morn so that the 2nd reacted as he did?
And why did the tyrant leave?
#217
GingerBreadMan
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Posted 07 June 2006 - 03:53 PM
I don't think the Tyrant is one and the same.
In fact, isn't it mentioned that there are multiple Tyrants on Assail?
As far as the avowed go, it's never mentioned Hood is after them. In fact, if he was it doesn't make sense.
Due to the vow, they send an incredible amount of souls his way. It is not as if they are immortal, they can die, and they will die. Hood is a older God and I doubt he is so impatient he won't wait a thousand years.
In fact, isn't it mentioned that there are multiple Tyrants on Assail?
As far as the avowed go, it's never mentioned Hood is after them. In fact, if he was it doesn't make sense.
Due to the vow, they send an incredible amount of souls his way. It is not as if they are immortal, they can die, and they will die. Hood is a older God and I doubt he is so impatient he won't wait a thousand years.
#218
GardenGnome
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Posted 07 June 2006 - 04:41 PM
Morgoth said:
on the topic of Hood.. I just read MT and noticed a quote from Silchas Ruin as he appears in front of Seren Pedac, Hull and that merchant.. Silchas mentions hood, which I think is interesting. Since the Andii has been imprissoned on the continent of Lether since the age of the KC, he must have learned of the god of death prior to the betrayal, yes? So Hood is thus incredibly old.. The Jaghut theory becomes more and more probable.. Unless he is a dragon
If I recall correctly, and I think I do, when Raest gets out from his prison in GotM, he meets someone (K'rul?) and asks if he is the "deathwalker, Hood", and then ask if he still stalks the land. I think Hood has been around for a very long time...
#219
Monoch Ochem
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Posted 07 June 2006 - 05:16 PM
And so has Raest apparently. They, like Krul, probably came from Chaos after MD's first assertion of order.
"We greet you Jaghut."
#220
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 07 June 2006 - 06:40 PM
I don't understand why people think the Soldier is still alive. Read his description - his horse is dead, and so is he. He's a servant of Hood, just like Baudin (dead) and Talamandas (dead). And his lack of knowledge demonstrates he's been out of touch for a long long time, (my opinion) almost certainly longer than the lifetime of Dassem Ultor.
