[ContrarianMalazanReader]

One thing that bothrered me about reading The Crippled God was the whole Kharkanas thing with the Letherii defending it from the Liosan invasion. It has absolutely no bearing on the Bonehunters' journey through the Glass Desert and their subsequent final battle with the Forkrul Assail and the Kolanse forces. It's like Erikson wanted to tell that particular story but had no idea where to publish it so he included it here in the final book.

On a broader scale the last few books from both Erikson and Esslemont allude to the Liosan waging various campaigns of invasion but are given no further explanation of what's going on.

Like I said, maybe I'm just too dumb to read BTL, and if so I'd appreciate if someone would please enlinghten me.

What was the whole point of the Kharkanas subplot in TCG?

[Abyss]

The story of the Tiste Andii's exodus from Kurald Galain and return is part of the whole MBF, as is Raraku/7C and Leth. The Shake are part of that and their return to Kharkanas, the city the Andii fled, defence, and salvation by Nimander and co, is a story that goes all the way back to Rake beating the crap out of the Demon Lord in GotM.

The Liosan army were allies with the FA. We know this from The Watch's encounter with FA and Liosan early in DoD.

I agree with you it's not as clear as it could be, but The Bonehunters' creation and journey and rescue of the CG is, arguably, the main story, not the only story.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

Abyss, on 25 September 2023 - 05:37 PM, said:

The story of the Tiste Andii's exodus from Kurald Galain and return is part of the whole MBF, as is Raraku/7C and Leth. The Shake are part of that and their return to Kharkanas, the city the Andii fled, defence, and salvation by Nimander and co, is a story that goes all the way back to Rake beating the crap out of the Demon Lord in GotM.

The Liosan army were allies with the FA. We know this from The Watch's encounter with FA and Liosan early in DoD.

I agree with you it's not as clear as it could be, but The Bonehunters' creation and journey and rescue of the CG is, arguably, the main story, not the only story.

On that note, I sometimes feel titling the last book of the main series The Crippled God is misleading, as the CG himself doesn't appear until the very climax of the book where he is finally released from Wu and is now free to return to his world of origin. A more appropiate title would have been something like "Kolanse and Kharkanas".

[Maark Abbott]

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 26 September 2023 - 12:24 AM, said:

Abyss, on 25 September 2023 - 05:37 PM, said:

The story of the Tiste Andii's exodus from Kurald Galain and return is part of the whole MBF, as is Raraku/7C and Leth. The Shake are part of that and their return to Kharkanas, the city the Andii fled, defence, and salvation by Nimander and co, is a story that goes all the way back to Rake beating the crap out of the Demon Lord in GotM.

The Liosan army were allies with the FA. We know this from The Watch's encounter with FA and Liosan early in DoD.

I agree with you it's not as clear as it could be, but The Bonehunters' creation and journey and rescue of the CG is, arguably, the main story, not the only story.

On that note, I sometimes feel titling the last book of the main series The Crippled God is misleading, as the CG himself doesn't appear until the very climax of the book where he is finally released from Wu and is now free to return to his world of origin. A more appropiate title would have been something like "Kolanse and Kharkanas".

Hard disagree. The title of CG is much like his storyline in the Ten; a culmination. Whatever else is going on, his release was the big event the books had been marching on towards and calling it anything else would have been kind of weird.

[D'rek]

It is kind of weird from a story structure standpoint, isn't it? I mean, I agree with Abyss that there are many stories told across the MBotF series and the Tiste legacy is part of that... but also that story did not exactly get much screentime/pagetime between Memories of Ice and The Crippled God, and so I do agree that it feels weird structurally to have the big finale of the Bonehunters' story, who have been a primary focus of five entire books, put right alongside the finale of the Shake story which was rather small so far and is also kind of but not exactly a continuation of the Tiste Andii stories from GotM/MoI/TtH but those weren't even the biggest focus of those books either.

I could imagine an alternate version of the MBotF telling the same stories that instead of being 10 huge books which simultaneously tell many stories within the same book is a larger number of smaller books with each book focused on just a single story. So like there's be a three-book mini-trilogy that are the Bridgeburner books, and separate from that would be a mini-series of four or five Tiste Andii books which start off overlapping with the events from the Bridgeburner books in Darujhistan and the Pannion Domin, and then continue following Rake and other Andii characters to other storylines until they end up connecting with the Shake story and the Liosan invasion is the big finale of that mini-series. And so on with a Bonehunters mini-series and a Letherii mini-series and a Barghast mini-series and a Toc the Younger duology, etc - it would be kinda like Discworld.

[Gorefest]

But it isn't like Discworld though, with lots of individual story threads from stand-alone characters or groups forging their way through the Discworld/Malazan universe. It is the Book of the Fallen. The Crippled God is the core character of the series, the unreliable narrator and the linchpin of all the events. Unlike a classic-style story, the events of the series are not told directly from his viewpoint, but they are told from all the entities (Gods, humans, barghast, tiste, shake, k'chain, jaghut) who have an involvement in his fall, suffering, fury, wrath, and redemption. They are the many threads that make up his tale, some threads only lightly brushing past and dropping away again, others more profound and life-altering. But each in their way affect the 10-book narrative that starts with the God being pulled down, broken and chained, through him suffering hurt and confused, then raging in anger and hatred and flailing out, dealing out destruction and chaos in his search to punish or hurt those who hurt him indiscriminately, to anguish and despair, to acceptance and redemption, and finally his release. The MBotF wouldn't work as individual stories and storylines, as that was never the intent of the writer. You may agree with the stylistic choice or not, but you cannot tell this story about the Crippled God by breaking it up in neat little strands. That is not how life works; people touch your life in different ways and with more, less or no mutual interaction. Even if the various tales and actors are unconnected in their own worlds, they are all part of the tale of the Crippled God. Otherwise you might as well call the series "Tales of the Malazan world", instead of the book of the Fallen. The Fallen, Kaminsod, the Crippled God, is the lynchpin, the codex and thus also the final book.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 01 October 2023 - 03:42 AM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 25 September 2023 - 04:23 PM, said:

What was the whole point of the Kharkanas subplot in TCG?

To set up the next series, naturally....

(Kidding---partly. Perhaps it could have gone in a previous book, but it's good to keep it fresh in readers' minds... though there are probably aesthetic reasons for including it in the final book beyond having both storylines sufficiently resolve in the finale.)

Gorefest, on 01 October 2023 - 03:40 AM, said:

\It is the Book of the Fallen. The Crippled God is the core character of the series[...] Otherwise you might as well call the series "Tales of the Malazan world", instead of the book of the Fallen. The Fallen, Kaminsod, the Crippled God, is the lynchpin, the codex and thus also the final book.

Of course the meaning of 'the Fallen' is more expansive than that; and (even aside from the deaths) it also applies to the Tiste (to the Liosan, Edur, and Andii each in different ways...).


Erikson:

Quote

The title was inspired by Napoleon's Book of the Fallen; although that one simply lists the names of the fallen soldiers from his campaigns. I was more inspired by the notion of it than its actuality. Fallen soldiers is one thing, but fallen lives and the stories surrounding them is another — one need not die to fall, in that sense. So, while characters will fall to the wayside (die), others will survive the series.

The ten books are mapped out regards the principle arcs. I know where the series is going, have done from the first, and now it's just a matter of getting us there, step by grisly step. It's that inexorability (is that a word?) that compels me as a writer; that and an abiding love of tragedy. My primary inspiration for the Malazan Book of the Fallen is the Iliad. There's a hint for ya.
encyclopediamalazica / TOR Q (pbworks.com)

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 01 October 2023 - 02:28 PM

[Abyss]

D, on 01 October 2023 - 12:32 AM, said:

It is kind of weird from a story structure standpoint, isn't it? I mean, I agree with Abyss that there are many stories told across the MBotF series and the Tiste legacy is part of that... but also that story did not exactly get much screentime/pagetime between Memories of Ice and The Crippled God,...

TOLL THE HOUNDS would like a word.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

I started to feel the same way as D'rek posted towards the end of my read-through, that it would have been better for this to be a collection of tales, because frankly TCG as a conclusion feels like a gargantuan clusterfuck of stuff happening.

[worry]

On the contrary.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

worry, on 01 October 2023 - 09:57 PM, said:

On the contrary.

Care to elaborate?

[worry]

I think we've both said our piece.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 01 October 2023 - 04:17 PM, said:

I started to feel the same way as D'rek posted towards the end of my read-through, that it would have been better for this to be a collection of tales, because frankly TCG as a conclusion feels like a gargantuan clusterfuck of stuff happening.

Dulce et decorum est
for the grand finale to be a clusterfuck

Gigantoclusterfucky? Todos por la garganta en el gran último...

[Gorefest]

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 01 October 2023 - 04:17 PM, said:

I started to feel the same way as D'rek posted towards the end of my read-through, that it would have been better for this to be a collection of tales, because frankly TCG as a conclusion feels like a gargantuan clusterfuck of stuff happening.

But that was the intention. Every book in the series has its convergences and it uses the concept of convergence throughout to explain/justify why all these seemingly coincidental things all come together in a resolution. So the reader should be familiar with the concept by the time we get to the finale. And the final book (or really two books, as DoD and tCG should really be seen as one novel cut in two) has the mother of all convergences. But every strand of it has been built up by the preceding books, whether we recognise it directly or not. This is one of the reasons why the series is so hugely rewarding on a reread.

The Forkrul Assail, the Liosan and the Nah'ruk have been in league / seeking a common goal for a long time already, which involves using parts of the CG to generate sufficient power. But we never see this directly, we only see the effects and results of their meddling indirectly through - on the face of it - casual observations of our POV characters and the various philosophical conversations that the books are heavy on. That is a story-telling device that a lot of readers are not necessarily comfortable/familiar with, as we are used to having POV heroes with inherent knowledge of the world around them, and convenient expositions from the various Bad Guys to push/focus the plot. Erikson doesn't use those devices; almost all the really 'Big' characters that would know what is really going on don't even get POVs (Rake, Tavore, Mother Dark, Shadowthrone, Hood, etc). We experience everything almost exclusively through a bystander perspective and the story we think we are reading isn't necessarily the story that is taking place. But we first encounter Forkrul all the way back in HoC and they are already mentioned even earlier (there is a Forkrul Assail corpse in Tremorlor in DG). Similarly, we learn of the Liosan and the Nah'ruk early on. We also learn that all these races/societies have several fundamental flaws and superiority complexes and are/were supposedly really powerful. Clearly if they all think they are so great and supposedly are so powerful, then where are they throughout the series? In actual fact, they are there, but our POV characters lack the understanding or knowledge to put the clues together individually.

It is left to the reader to pull all these individual strands together and, especially on a first read, that is a diabolical task. Which I think is why so many people feel underwhelmed / overstretched by the series finale on a first read and why the series is widely acclaimed as one of the most rewarding fantasy series for re-reads. Not everyone can stomach a 10-book (plus side novels) re-read though.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 02 October 2023 - 11:53 AM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Gorefest, on 02 October 2023 - 11:51 AM, said:

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 01 October 2023 - 04:17 PM, said:

I started to feel the same way as D'rek posted towards the end of my read-through, that it would have been better for this to be a collection of tales, because frankly TCG as a conclusion feels like a gargantuan clusterfuck of stuff happening.

But that was the intention. Every book in the series has its convergences and it uses the concept of convergence throughout to explain/justify why all these seemingly coincidental things all come together in a resolution. So the reader should be familiar with the concept by the time we get to the finale. And the final book (or really two books, as DoD and tCG should really be seen as one novel cut in two) has the mother of all convergences. But every strand of it has been built up by the preceding books, whether we recognise it directly or not. This is one of the reasons why the series is so hugely rewarding on a reread.

The Forkrul Assail, the Liosan and the Nah'ruk have been in league / seeking a common goal for a long time already, which involves using parts of the CG to generate sufficient power. But we never see this directly, we only see the effects and results of their meddling indirectly through - on the face of it - casual observations of our POV characters and the various philosophical conversations that the books are heavy on. That is a story-telling device that a lot of readers are not necessarily comfortable/familiar with, as we are used to having POV heroes with inherent knowledge of the world around them, and convenient expositions from the various Bad Guys to push/focus the plot. Erikson doesn't use those devices; almost all the really 'Big' characters that would know what is really going on don't even get POVs (Rake, Tavore, Mother Dark, Shadowthrone, Hood, etc). We experience everything almost exclusively through a bystander perspective and the story we think we are reading isn't necessarily the story that is taking place. But we first encounter Forkrul all the way back in HoC and they are already mentioned even earlier (there is a Forkrul Assail corpse in Tremorlor in DG). Similarly, we learn of the Liosan and the Nah'ruk early on. We also learn that all these races/societies have several fundamental flaws and superiority complexes and are/were supposedly really powerful. Clearly if they all think they are so great and supposedly are so powerful, then where are they throughout the series? In actual fact, they are there, but our POV characters lack the understanding or knowledge to put the clues together individually.

It is left to the reader to pull all these individual strands together and, especially on a first read, that is a diabolical task. Which I think is why so many people feel underwhelmed / overstretched by the series finale on a first read and why the series is widely acclaimed as one of the most rewarding fantasy series for re-reads. Not everyone can stomach a 10-book (plus side novels) re-read though.

Too bad there isn't an annotated ebook of the entire series. (Publisher could at least provide the option to see annotation from a wiki, with suggested links to previous passages (including from previous books)?) Guess there isn't page-by-page (or paragraph by paragraph) annotation anywhere either.

[Abyss]

Abyss, on 01 October 2023 - 03:47 PM, said:

D, on 01 October 2023 - 12:32 AM, said:

It is kind of weird from a story structure standpoint, isn't it? I mean, I agree with Abyss that there are many stories told across the MBotF series and the Tiste legacy is part of that... but also that story did not exactly get much screentime/pagetime between Memories of Ice and The Crippled God,...

TOLL THE HOUNDS would like a word.

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 01 October 2023 - 04:17 PM, said:

I started to feel the same way as D'rek posted towards the end of my read-through, that it would have been better for this to be a collection of tales, because frankly TCG as a conclusion feels like a gargantuan clusterfuck of stuff happening.

I see how it could feel that way, but the five major storylines concluding - the Bridgeburners protecting the CG, the rest of Tavore's army confronting the FA, the allied races at the heart, the dragons, Kharkanas - all link back to two main things... the CG and the Tiste, and those two storylines link by way of the Azathanii.

It's huge and complicated and takes some work to follow and i love it for all the reasons you apparently don't.
'clusterfucky', going to intent if not actual wording, is a fair critique if it didn't work for you. It's not a series written for 'everybody', we know this, we've known this for a long long time, it even hurts the series from a sales and popularity standpoint. Fuckit, i don't care, i love what SE built here, it worked for me.

Gorefest, on 02 October 2023 - 11:51 AM, said:

But that was the intention. Every book in the series has its convergences and it uses the concept of convergence throughout to explain/justify why all these seemingly coincidental things all come together in a resolution. So the reader should be familiar with the concept by the time we get to the finale. And the final book (or really two books, as DoD and tCG should really be seen as one novel cut in two) has the mother of all convergences. But every strand of it has been built up by the preceding books, whether we recognise it directly or not. This is one of the reasons why the series is so hugely rewarding on a reread.

The Forkrul Assail, the Liosan and the Nah'ruk have been in league / seeking a common goal for a long time already, which involves using parts of the CG to generate sufficient power. But we never see this directly, we only see the effects and results of their meddling indirectly through - on the face of it - casual observations of our POV characters and the various philosophical conversations that the books are heavy on. That is a story-telling device that a lot of readers are not necessarily comfortable/familiar with, as we are used to having POV heroes with inherent knowledge of the world around them, and convenient expositions from the various Bad Guys to push/focus the plot. Erikson doesn't use those devices; almost all the really 'Big' characters that would know what is really going on don't even get POVs (Rake, Tavore, Mother Dark, Shadowthrone, Hood, etc). We experience everything almost exclusively through a bystander perspective and the story we think we are reading isn't necessarily the story that is taking place. But we first encounter Forkrul all the way back in HoC and they are already mentioned even earlier (there is a Forkrul Assail corpse in Tremorlor in DG). Similarly, we learn of the Liosan and the Nah'ruk early on. We also learn that all these races/societies have several fundamental flaws and superiority complexes and are/were supposedly really powerful. Clearly if they all think they are so great and supposedly are so powerful, then where are they throughout the series? In actual fact, they are there, but our POV characters lack the understanding or knowledge to put the clues together individually.

It is left to the reader to pull all these individual strands together and, especially on a first read, that is a diabolical task. Which I think is why so many people feel underwhelmed / overstretched by the series finale on a first read and why the series is widely acclaimed as one of the most rewarding fantasy series for re-reads. Not everyone can stomach a 10-book (plus side novels) re-read though.

Also, this^

Azath Vitr (D, on 02 October 2023 - 12:18 PM, said:

Too bad there isn't an annotated ebook of the entire series. (Publisher could at least provide the option to see annotation from a wiki, with suggested links to previous passages (including from previous books)?) Guess there isn't page-by-page (or paragraph by paragraph) annotation anywhere either.

I think those are HARD to make. Afaik, there's an official one for THE DARK TOWER, a very loose one the author made for Harry Potter, a few for LoTR, and that's about it.

[Siergiej]

Gorefest, on 02 October 2023 - 11:51 AM, said:

The Forkrul Assail, the Liosan and the Nah'ruk have been in league / seeking a common goal for a long time already, which involves using parts of the CG to generate sufficient power. But we never see this directly, we only see the effects and results of their meddling indirectly through - on the face of it - casual observations of our POV characters and the various philosophical conversations that the books are heavy on. That is a story-telling device that a lot of readers are not necessarily comfortable/familiar with, as we are used to having POV heroes with inherent knowledge of the world around them, and convenient expositions from the various Bad Guys to push/focus the plot. Erikson doesn't use those devices; almost all the really 'Big' characters that would know what is really going on don't even get POVs (Rake, Tavore, Mother Dark, Shadowthrone, Hood, etc). We experience everything almost exclusively through a bystander perspective and the story we think we are reading isn't necessarily the story that is taking place. But we first encounter Forkrul all the way back in HoC and they are already mentioned even earlier (there is a Forkrul Assail corpse in Tremorlor in DG). Similarly, we learn of the Liosan and the Nah'ruk early on. We also learn that all these races/societies have several fundamental flaws and superiority complexes and are/were supposedly really powerful. Clearly if they all think they are so great and supposedly are so powerful, then where are they throughout the series? In actual fact, they are there, but our POV characters lack the understanding or knowledge to put the clues together individually.

It is left to the reader to pull all these individual strands together and, especially on a first read, that is a diabolical task. Which I think is why so many people feel underwhelmed / overstretched by the series finale on a first read and why the series is widely acclaimed as one of the most rewarding fantasy series for re-reads. Not everyone can stomach a 10-book (plus side novels) re-read though.

This is such a great and concise explanation of how the overarching plot in Malazan works. I'm currently rereading The Bonehunters, which introduces the return of Nah'ruk and the murdered dragon Sorrit and you get POVs from characters who are trying to figure out what's going on: Paran, Quick Ben, even Cotillion - but never through those like Tavore or Shadowthrone who have a better understanding oif the bigger picture. We only get to see fragments of a massive plot that is happening behind the scenes and doesn't come to the forefront until very late in the series.

It's definitely not everyone's cup of tea but it's an incredible feat of storytelling to pull it off.

[Abyss]

Siergiej, on 04 October 2023 - 12:56 PM, said:

... characters who are trying to figure out what's going on: Paran, Quick Ben, even Cotillion - but never through those like Tavore or Shadowthrone who have a better understanding oif the bigger picture. We only get to see fragments of a massive plot that is happening behind the scenes and doesn't come to the forefront until very late in the series.

It's definitely not everyone's cup of tea but it's an incredible feat of storytelling to pull it off.

Moreso because while ST and Tavore having a bigger picture is one possible interp, the flipside is that they do not, they're just going based on an equally incomplete picture and a firm vision of the outcome they want to see... ST wants the gods punished and denied their slave power source, Tavore wants the god freed and the world saved from the impact of his slavery, and they both PUSH for their goals while other events happen around them and force changes of plans. W the benefit of ICE's PoA, it seems that ST created the Empire to have the power base to figure out what was going on in the world, determined that some things were fundamentally wrong and went about correcting them. The Malazan Empire was just a step for him, and eventually Cots, that they came to care about. For Surly and others it became EVERYTHING, and that obsession almost derails the plan towards freeing the CG. Leth was 'just' another instance of the CG lashing out and other gods messing about, but it placed an obstacle in Tavore's path and a threat to the Malazan Empire, so it had to be taken out. 7C was a complication, but if the CG had seized the Whirlwind it may have been impossible to free him... throw in the threat to the Empire, again, and 7C has to be dealt with. Same for the Seer and Genbackis, and the FA on Kolanse, and to a less clear extent, the Stormwall and the Lady... my brain hurts.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

See, that's the thing. I enjoy these discussions about the books, and it has made me realize that I like the ideas presented by the books more than I like the books themselves.

Regarding the main series, GotM, which everyone considers the weakest entry, is precisely the one I enjoy the most, whereas DG, which many consider the point they got hooked on the MBotF, is IMO the weakest entry. The other books I really enjoyed are MT and TBH, with MoI and HoC being so-so (Karsa's origin story bored the shit out of me, though). After TBH, the main series became a real chore to read, RG being a really boring read that is saved by the final two chapters, and I didn't like TTH at all save for the part where Anomander Rake sacrifices himself. DoD and TCG were quite a handful, and by the end I was just glad it was all over.

On the flipside, ICE's books got better and better with each succeeding entry, though NoK was one of the most boring books I've ever read. I suspect I am one of the very few Malazan readers who prefers ICE's writing over SE's, although my biggest pet peeve with ICE is that he tends to end his books on cliffhangers that remain unresolved.

[Tsundoku]

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 05 October 2023 - 04:45 AM, said:

See, that's the thing. I enjoy these discussions about the books, and it has made me realize that I like the ideas presented by the books more than I like the books themselves.

Regarding the main series, GotM, which everyone considers the weakest entry, is precisely the one I enjoy the most, whereas DG, which many consider the point they got hooked on the MBotF, is IMO the weakest entry.

I like them both, but DHG is my favourite, followed by MoI.

Quote

The other books I really enjoyed are MT and TBH,

Agreed, though I put TBH marginally above MT.

Quote

with MoI and HoC being so-so (Karsa's origin story bored the shit out of me, though).

See above re MoI, and I liked HoC, but admittedly the split nature of the book threw me at first.

Quote

After TBH, the main series became a real chore to read, RG being a really boring read that is saved by the final two chapters,

Agreed.

Quote

and I didn't like TTH at all save for the part where Anomander Rake sacrifices himself.

TTH was hard for me to get through, and I found my favourite bits were the lower-tier characters.

Quote

DoD and TCG were quite a handful, and by the end I was just glad it was all over.

OK, full disclosure. It took me until just recently to finish DoD. And I started it when it came out. The second half was much better than the first half, when I discovered the secret was to skim anything to do with the Snake and the Shake. Just paid enough attention to get the important bits. Plus it picks up pace considerably.

Quote

On the flipside, ICE's books got better and better with each succeeding entry, though NoK was one of the most boring books I've ever read. I suspect I am one of the very few Malazan readers who prefers ICE's writing over SE's, although my biggest pet peeve with ICE is that he tends to end his books on cliffhangers that remain unresolved.

I tend to prefer ICE's more spare style (and SE's first half of the series style) to SE's latter half of the series style as it got a bit too ruminatory for me at times. Although ICE can tend to go a bit too fast when things hinted at in the later set books of the main series seem to happen in half a page if they get a mention at all. Maybe that factors into the mythical nature of how the old guard and those times are regarded in the later years of the main series, but sometimes a bit less pace and a bit more detail can be a good thing.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 05 October 2023 - 12:38 PM