[D'rek]

Gorefest, on 02 October 2023 - 11:51 AM, said:

But that was the intention. Every book in the series has its convergences and it uses the concept of convergence throughout to explain/justify why all these seemingly coincidental things all come together in a resolution. So the reader should be familiar with the concept by the time we get to the finale. And the final book (or really two books, as DoD and tCG should really be seen as one novel cut in two) has the mother of all convergences. But every strand of it has been built up by the preceding books, whether we recognise it directly or not. This is one of the reasons why the series is so hugely rewarding on a reread.

I dunno, I kinda feel this sort of reasoning starts to become a weird circular logic. 4 Liosan on a sidequest showed up in House of Chains and then suddenly an entire army of them invading was a massive screentime-consumer and secondary climax to the whole series in book 10. Ya, sure, "it's all part of the convergence" but, like, the Bonehunters army showing up in Kolanse was also "part of the convergence". Would the climactic fight against the Forkrul feel just as satisfying if the entire screentime of the Bonehunters army before the last book was just one squad briefly appearing in a couple chapters of House of Chains? "Man, this Malaz army defeated the Raraku rebellion, sailed across the world and invaded Lether entirely off-screen, but that's fine because I understand the concept of convergences so I don't care about actually seeing any of that?".

Abyss, on 04 October 2023 - 01:58 PM, said:

Moreso because while ST and Tavore having a bigger picture is one possible interp, the flipside is that they do not, they're just going based on an equally incomplete picture and a firm vision of the outcome they want to see... ST wants the gods punished and denied their slave power source, Tavore wants the god freed and the world saved from the impact of his slavery, and they both PUSH for their goals while other events happen around them and force changes of plans. W the benefit of ICE's PoA, it seems that ST created the Empire to have the power base to figure out what was going on in the world, determined that some things were fundamentally wrong and went about correcting them. The Malazan Empire was just a step for him, and eventually Cots, that they came to care about. For Surly and others it became EVERYTHING, and that obsession almost derails the plan towards freeing the CG. Leth was 'just' another instance of the CG lashing out and other gods messing about, but it placed an obstacle in Tavore's path and a threat to the Malazan Empire, so it had to be taken out. 7C was a complication, but if the CG had seized the Whirlwind it may have been impossible to free him... throw in the threat to the Empire, again, and 7C has to be dealt with. Same for the Seer and Genbackis, and the FA on Kolanse, and to a less clear extent, the Stormwall and the Lady... my brain hurts.

I agree with all this but the thing for me is that all these other "obstacles" got a ton more development and screentime. Lether had a whole book of its own before the Bonehunters invaded it as "just another obstacle". We got to see many insides and outsides of the Whirlwind Rebellion before it was crushed. Etc. The Pures and the Liosan invasion army didn't get that same treatment, they were kept almost entirely off-screen until pulled out to be antagonists at the very end. It's all a bit backwards - the first "obstacles" should be the ones that need the least development and the big final climactic ones should be the ones with the most, right?

[Abyss]

The Liosan weren't the main obstacle. They were allied w the FA, sure, and a general pain in the butt, but their goal was Kharkanas. It wasn't the Liosan that the Bonehunters and co faced in the finale(s), it was the Assail, and they had been an 'on screen' problem since DoD, arguably HoC, the Nah'Ruk too.

But your point seems to be that the FA/Liosan/Nah'Ruk/Grey Helms alliance of eco-evil isn't front and center from the beginning. You're right. There are hints, sometimes big ones like Kalam finding the Nah'Ruk army hiding in the Imperial Warren, but the threat isn't clear until DoD.

So we're left w two big stories.... the Malazan Empire and how one of its armies breaks away on a 'mysterious quest' (just assume i wiggled my fingers and did a creepy voice as i said that), and Mother Dark's break with the Tiste Andii. Those are the 'paths', i suppose, that take us to the finale. I can live w that just fine. Also, it's late and i have work to do so I'll get back to this sooner or later.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 07 October 2023 - 04:17 AM, said:

The Liosan weren't the main obstacle. They were allied w the FA, sure, and a general pain in the butt, but their goal was Kharkanas. It wasn't the Liosan that the Bonehunters and co faced in the finale(s), it was the Assail, and they had been an 'on screen' problem since DoD, arguably HoC, the Nah'Ruk too.

From a logic standpoint or from the Bonehunters' storyline standpoint they are not the main obstacle indeed, I absolutely agree. But then why do they get so much screentime in the final book as if the Liosan invasion was some big secondary final confrontation that was built up over the course of the series the way the real main obstacle was? (That's the premise of this thread - not claiming they were an equal final enemy)

Abyss, on 07 October 2023 - 04:17 AM, said:

But your point seems to be that the FA/Liosan/Nah'Ruk/Grey Helms alliance of eco-evil isn't front and center from the beginning. You're right. There are hints, sometimes big ones like Kalam finding the Nah'Ruk army hiding in the Imperial Warren, but the threat isn't clear until DoD.

Honestly I've always hated the argument that there even was "plenty of hints" about the Nah'ruk or Liosan in the earlier books. Yes, QB and Kalam happened upon an army of Nah'ruk in the Imperial Warren, but there wasn't any connection drawn from that to... anything. (Yes, other K'Chain appeared in MoI and RG, too, but I don't feel there was ever a connection established between those K'Chain events and the Nah'ruk event in DoD aside from their shared ancient history.)

So, like, if the Bonehunters had run into a legion of Korvalahrai demons in DoD instead would we be like "ah, the hints were there ever since Midnight Tides" ? If instead of either of those a portal opened up and the Deragoth charged into the Bonehunters would we think the hints were there all along for *that*?! Just seeing something before doesn't make it a "hint" when the series is full of seeing things that don't necessarily come back up later.

With that in mind, turning back to the Andii/Mother Dark storyline... I think there's a pretty clear buildup towards the events and resolutions in this particular storyline that occur in the climax of TtH. The Tiste Andii being lost without a cause, the absence of Mother Dark, how Dragnipur works and why destroying it would be a potential solution to this but also the huge problems it would cause - these things are all talked about by characters in earlier books before the events of TtH change or resolve a lot of them. I wouldn't say the same about the Liosan invasion - characters briefly mention that the Tiste Liosan as a whole exist, but the idea that there is a large militant Liosan kingdom who will invade with a dozen dragons if Rake were to die and/or reconcile with Mother Dark is never talked about or even hinted at, not even once, in the way that shattering Dragnipur will release all the beings within it is brought up multiple times. And yes, I believe that contributes to it feeling like it "comes out of nowhere" so to speak.

[Gorefest]

I believe that it all comes back to thematics in the end. Erikson seems to like writing conceptually and metaphorically.

What I mean by this is that where in traditional storytelling you have 'Good' versus 'Evil', the central premise of the MBotF seems to tweak this to make it less black & white and more grey (or less Andii vs Lioson and more Edur, if you like). So instead of old school Good versus Evil, we have Justice and Judgement versus Empathy and Foregiveness/Redemption. Or, more accurately, you have certain radical factions who are so self-righteous and arrogant that they feel they have the 'god-given' right to judge others and act as arbiters and executioners to cleanse the infidels. The Forkrul Assail have been built up from very early on to embody that trait and to be that thematic metaphore. Note that our baddies in the final books are only a faction of Forkrul (the 'Lawful Inquisitors'; there are other Forkrul not involved in this fanatic purge that we encounter in Assail) and only a faction of the Liosan (Kadagar Fant's tribe, not Jayashul group - and supposedly L'oric as well - who we meet in Stonewielder).


In HoC, we encounter Calm (self-proclaimed 'Bringer of Peace', i.e. death) who is so immensely powerful that it took Icarium and a whole host of T'Lan Imass to imprison her. She is a seriously immmense threat. And she tells Bairoth:
" There will come a time when he [Karsa] stands poised to change the world. And when that time comes, I shall be there. For I bring peace. When that moment arrives, cease guarding him. Step back, as you have done now. " Big foreshadowing that we have not seen the last of her and her ilk.
In RG, we learn about the Just Wars through Beak. This was a conflict between the Forkrul and the Liosan, basically with both sides being convinced that the 'God of Justice' was on their side. According to Beak:
" They fought on the ruins. During what they called the Just Wars. Here, it was only a skirmish, but nobody survived. They killed each other, and the last warrior standing had a hole in her throat and she bled out right where the Fist is standing. She was Forkrul Assail, and her last thought was about how victory proved they were right and the enemy was wrong. Then she died. "
We also learn that the site has a Jaghut ruin and and the whole place is under an Omtose Phellack ritual. In TtH, Brood tells Endest Silaan that the Jaghut and the Forkrul were polar opposites, with the Jaghut abhorring the Forkrul arrogance and separation:
" 'Was there war?'
Caladan Brood was silent for so long that Endest began to believe that no answer was forthcoming, and then he glanced up with his bestial eyes glittering in the ebbing flames of the hearth.' "Was"?'
Endest Silann stared across at his old friend, and the breath slowly hissed from him. 'Gods below, Caladan. No war can last that long.'
'It can, when the face of the army is without relevance.' The revelation was... monstrous. Insane. 'Where?'
The warlord's smile was without humour. 'Far away from here, friend, which is well. Imagine what your Lord might elect to do, if it was otherwise.'
He would intervene. "
So again foreshadowing of Forkrul being in the picture and very nasty. And it might also add extra motivation to Hood's actions.


In addition, we learn that Forkrul are in Kurald Thyrllan by the time of DoD (encounter with Yedan Derryg), so they are clearly in league with or may have even usurped the Liosan for their goal, which is to cleanse the whole world of humankind, which is judged imperfect/impure/weak. The Liosan attempt to break through at Lightfall in the final books is to aid the Forkrul in this cleansing, which is about to start with the aid of the power of the Crippled God's heart.


Similarly, the K'Chain Nah'ruk are described as intent on imposing a brutal order on their environment, which places them in opposition to the much more chaotic K'Chain Che'malle. They are first mentioned in MoI. In MT, we learn that when the Andii and Edur arrived in the Malazan world, they encountered and destroyed an army of Che'malle and Nah'ruk in Lether, wiping out most Che'malle but leaving a faction of rebellious Nah'ruk near Morn. In tBH, Quick Ben encountered a fleet of Nah'ruk skykeeps inside the Imperial warren. The mage Sands observed that the skykeeps had crossed over from Chaos, which as we learnt from the conversation between Draconus and Paran inside Dragnipur was in eternal conflict with Darkness (i.e. link with Andii vs Liosan themes). Draconus also tell Ganoes that he originally had judged that Mother Dark was too lenient/empathic by allowing the forces of light and shadow to diminish her power and forcing her to retreat, so he created Dragnipur to bind the Gate of Darkness/Kurald Galain away and protect it from the forces of Chaos (light, shadow, entropy, creation, or similar physics concepts in opposition to darkness/vacuum/absence). He states that he now regrets this decision and that he had misunderstood the nature of the Gate. The Nah'ruk were using chained dragons/dragon blood (which is chaos magic) to power their skykeeps. Interestingly, Edur folklore from Lether tells us that the Chaos pursuing Darkness is actually a final vengeance from the Che'malle for the Tiste invasion that almost wiped them out, so in a final act they supposedly sent their sorcery (chaos) into the domain of Darkness like a plague and forced Mother Dark to retreat.


There is a longstanding conflict between the Forkrul and the Che'malle, in which the Forkrul turned on their own God to leech it for power and destroying most of the Che'malle nests. The final matron in the conflict opened a portal to Chaos, destroying herself and the Forkrul's God and creating the Glass Desert. We learn in DoD/tCG that it actually is the Forkrul Assail who are in league with (or have taken control of?) The Nah'ruk who have sent the Nah'ruk to destroy the remaining Che'malle, running into Tavore's army in the process.


I am sure there are lots more links, but the main point is that none of these plotlines exist in isolation and they are really just a personification of the thematic plot of self-righteous, arrogant/deluded Judgement versus Empathy / Redemption. That is the theme that the whole series has revolved around and what we are building towards at the climax. It isn't really about the Forkrul or the Liosan or the Bonehunters or the Shake, it is about uncontrolled Power (the Crippled God) being abused by self-righteous zealotism, that is countered not by vengeful vigilantism, but by empathy and remorse/redemption. It would have been 'easy' for our heroes to see the Crippled God as an Evil entity and extract full vengeance upon him, but instead they recognise that he is a tormented and confused (pulled down, chained, drained, abused) victim himself who deserves help. And we discover that it is not the Crippled God who was the big bad guy all along, but a faction of shady nasty-minded zealots with hidden motives and longstanding petty feuds who have been abusing events all along. That is really the core, at least in my opinion, of the books. And that is also why I firmly believe that it wouldn't work as a set of standalone adventure books in line with e.g. Discworld. It is all about thematics.

[Abyss]

D, on 08 October 2023 - 12:28 AM, said:

Abyss, on 07 October 2023 - 04:17 AM, said:

The Liosan weren't the main obstacle. They were allied w the FA, sure, and a general pain in the butt, but their goal was Kharkanas. It wasn't the Liosan that the Bonehunters and co faced in the finale(s), it was the Assail, and they had been an 'on screen' problem since DoD, arguably HoC, the Nah'Ruk too.

From a logic standpoint or from the Bonehunters' storyline standpoint they are not the main obstacle indeed, I absolutely agree. But then why do they get so much screentime in the final book as if the Liosan invasion was some big secondary final confrontation that was built up over the course of the series the way the real main obstacle was? (That's the premise of this thread - not claiming they were an equal final enemy)

The Liosan invasion is the conclusion to the Andii story that mostly ends w TtH. The next phase is the Andii return to Kharkanas, which, it turns out, is linked to the Shake return. In retro we know SE was setting up the Kharkanas trilogy to an extent. There's a also a theme of victims redeeming their oppressors, which we see via the Shake savig the city for their former masters and the Bonehunters saving the CG despite all the crap he's caused. FInally, the Liosan invasion and the Shake sets up Nimander and co's return to Kharkanas and the related subplots that winds up, which also ties up an Andii loose end. It'snot a perfect setup/payoff, but the point is the Andii's ancestral enemy trying to take their homeland from them.

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Abyss, on 07 October 2023 - 04:17 AM, said:

But your point seems to be that the FA/Liosan/Nah'Ruk/Grey Helms alliance of eco-evil isn't front and center from the beginning. You're right. There are hints, sometimes big ones like Kalam finding the Nah'Ruk army hiding in the Imperial Warren, but the threat isn't clear until DoD.

Honestly I've always hated the argument that there even was "plenty of hints" about the Nah'ruk or Liosan in the earlier books. Yes, QB and Kalam happened upon an army of Nah'ruk in the Imperial Warren, but there wasn't any connection drawn from that to... anything. (Yes, other K'Chain appeared in MoI and RG, too, but I don't feel there was ever a connection established between those K'Chain events and the Nah'ruk event in DoD aside from their shared ancient history.)

We have the Nahruk pod Paran finds in TB, the Chemalle Matron in RG alludes to them being hunted and other cities having disappeared. I get that you're not satisfied w the foreshadowing but that's not quite the same as it doesn't exist. We knew the Nahruk were around and up to 'something'. If it hadn't tied in to the FA plot the hints would have had no point, as opposed to not enough point.

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So, like, if the Bonehunters had run into a legion of Korvalahrai demons in DoD instead would we be like "ah, the hints were there ever since Midnight Tides" ?

...actually, yes, provided we had the smallest indication Rhulad was working for the FA rather than the CG.

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If instead of either of those a portal opened up and the Deragoth charged into the Bonehunters would we think the hints were there all along for *that*?! Just seeing something before doesn't make it a "hint" when the series is full of seeing things that don't necessarily come back up later.

But if the Hounds of Light had done exactly that you would be saying there wasn't enough hints that was coming.


You're right the series IS full of things that never come up again... i enjoy the entire 'there are other things going on' aspect. But the Liosan/FA/KN thing didn't come out of absolute nowhere, and the hints we did get - again, i ack they are few and scattered - do lead to it.

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With that in mind, turning back to the Andii/Mother Dark storyline... I think there's a pretty clear buildup towards the events and resolutions in this particular storyline that occur in the climax of TtH. The Tiste Andii being lost without a cause, the absence of Mother Dark, how Dragnipur works and why destroying it would be a potential solution to this but also the huge problems it would cause - these things are all talked about by characters in earlier books before the events of TtH change or resolve a lot of them. I wouldn't say the same about the Liosan invasion - characters briefly mention that the Tiste Liosan as a whole exist, but the idea that there is a large militant Liosan kingdom who will invade with a dozen dragons if Rake were to die and/or reconcile with Mother Dark is never talked about or even hinted at, not even once, in the way that shattering Dragnipur will release all the beings within it is brought up multiple times. And yes, I believe that contributes to it feeling like it "comes out of nowhere" so to speak.

I address that earlier, but again, fair enough. It's not a baseless position, even if i disagree w it. The series pretty much thrives from page one on not telling the reader 'everything'. ST never told Tavore everything, she never tells the Bonehunters, QB never tells anyone... this is it. This is how it works, lumps, potsherds, and all.

[sigpig]

Think of it this way - if the Andii had allied with Tavor, they would have combatted both the Edur and the FA.

That many Soultaken Eleint would -probably- have wiped the floor of the Kolanse forces.

The way I see it, is the battle at the First Shore was similar to the battle at the Black Gate of Mordor while Frodo and Sam fight the REAL battle.
If you think about it, all three (four?) battles may have happened simultaneously - First Shore, Kolanse/Spire, Marines/Heavies, Gilk/Tarthenal/Imass/Jaghut, etc. Or so close in time that it doesn't matter. That's quite the convergence.