[Macros]

Finished it

at about 25% I wasn't overly enamoured. Sure better than the Tiste origins books, and better than the last 3 main series but definitely sub par on the first 7

I was struggling with the cast, again too many voices that were similar in their psuedo philosophical cant. About the mid way mark I either started to like the cast more or their voices became more distinct for me (still don't like the heavies "banter") By the end I was all in, this is Erikson back to Pre TtH imo, which is very much a good thing.

but holy hell does the man love tragedy and mass graves

[Abyss]

Macros, on 27 July 2021 - 08:27 PM, said:

...(still don't like the heavies "banter") ...

You are dead to me.



...i mean that in a nice way...

[cauthon]

Well, after having read it, I can only say one thing. ALL. HAIL. THE. MARINES.

[Abyss]

cauthon, on 09 August 2021 - 09:43 AM, said:

Well, after having read it, I can only say one thing. ALL. HAIL. THE. MARINES.

So much this.

The 'evolution' from the Bridgeburners, to the Bonehunters, to the 14th... it's wild and glorious.

[Renz]

Finished the book yesterday. Wow just Wow! Absolutely loved it. Was going to take my time reading it but after the first 5 chapters or so couldn't put it down. Had a main session from 9.30 in the evening till 5.15 in the morning lol. Luckily it was a friday night. SE you're brilliant please keep them coming I beg you!Had everything we've come to love, gripping story, immersive experience, excellent charactarisations, humor / tear jerking, poignant themes etc. Only slight negative is with the Anomander Rake part. His was such a huge sacrifice that to bring him back in a cameo like this severely undermines the emotional investment we made at the time. That's just me but I suppose we'll need to see if he develops that story further. Need to do a re-read now. Just a quick question though, Sathal is another of Karsa's daughters (red hair blue eyes if I remember correctly) any idea where she came from? Can't for the life of me remember another woman Karsa was "involved" with. Samar Dev maybe???

This post has been edited by Renz: 22 August 2021 - 09:44 AM

[champ]

Rereading HoC now and came across this nice little quote...


When Gall rocks up...

Quote

He nodded towards the approaching group and asked in rough Malazan, ‘This is the Plain Woman who leads you?’

First time you see Tavore referred to as the Plain Woman, also in caps too. It goes with this quote from The God is Not Willing...

Quote

‘In the great dens of the southlands, on a certain day – I forget which – women gather in the streets to celebrate a goddess called The Unloved Woman. She is the matron of widows or plain women or something. I don’t know. It’s a woman thing.

Also you could say this following quote echoes ST alleged world spanning spell...

Quote

Ebron snorted. ‘I said Karakarang, didn’t I? The Tanno cult claims a direct descent from the cult of the Nameless Ones. The Spiritwalkers say their powers, of song and the like, arose from the original patterns that the Nameless Ones fashioned in their rituals—those patterns supposedly crisscross this entire subcontinent, and their power remains to this day.

[Traveller]

The Ten Very Big Books podcast have an interview with Steve about the book if you're interested and haven't noticed it yet.

[Siergiej]

I finished reading yesterday with plenty of thoughts in my head. Slept on it and it's time to put those thoughts to paper.

Overall, I enjoyed it. Erikson revisiting his style from the earlier Malazan novels was a much needed refresh after Fall of Light. Don't get me wrong, I can't wait for Walk in Shadow to come out, but FoL was just really difficult to read. The God is not Willing I breezed through. Just a thoroughly enjoyable, self-contained and action-packed story with plenty of meat for Malazan fans and a strong political message. And I'm looking forward to the next installments, which means Erikson bought me over with TGinW. I wasn't too excited about it because despite my issues with FoL, I'm much more invested in the Kharkanas story than I am in Karsa's. So I didn't like this was coming out ahead of WiS but now I'm glad it did and I'm excited to see where SE takes this next. Shouldn't have doubted the old man!

What I liked the most:

Rant's and Damisk's relationship. It takes some suspension of disbelief to go along with how quickly people become extremely loyal to Rant but it serves the story and character arcs so well than I'm 100% onboard. And the friendship/father-son relatiosnhip between Rant and Damisk is the best example. There's so much packed into this: guilt, grief, trust, responsibility, betrayal, loyalty, care. All Rant-Damisk parts of the book are just filled with emotion and the tragic end is a perfect ending to that subplot. Rant's realization Damisk would have lived if he let him go literally a few steps earlier, how he is tormented by guilt, and how Damisk is completely at peace with this... this was the most human and real part of a book about magic and dragon assassins and six-armed murder gods.

Marines, hell yes! Except Spindle, all Malazan soldiers are new faces, but they're just as lovable as the Biridgeburners and Bonehunters. They're grumpy, silly, and ready to die for each other. The soldier banter was a standout piece of the original series and it's back in full force in TGinW. Special mention to Stillwater - the batshit insane assassin-mage and her antics were a joy to read.

The worldbuilding. Obviously, Erikson has been an absolute champion of that, but TGinW is much smaller in scope and scale than his usual stories - it barely ventures outside what was covered in about the first 100 pages of House of Chains. That doesn't stop SE from showing us there is a much larger world outside of the main storyline. The best bit of this is Damisk's detour into the Beast Hold to meet the K'Chain in skykeeps and release the weird murder god. We're left not knowing what really happened but knowing it was really badass. Loved it. Then there is the new magic with runts, the Malazan innovation in making marine units based on mages, new cults of Tavore and Paran (Unloved Woman and Twice Alive), the decay of Jaghut rituals, Imass tribes in northern Genabackis, Cotillion and Shadowthrone still scheming... THERE IS A LOT. Not sure how much of it new readers will pick up on, but Malazan veterans will have so many reasons to smile reading those worldbuilding tidbits.

The overall message. It's basically a statement of compassion for climate refugees.

What I didn't like:


The final battles were meh. The wilders just walked into a minefield and then the flood came and that was it. That's especially disappointing because SE is usually great at battle scenes. I feel like he was trying to do something else here: throw away the action to focus on the emotion. But it didn't work. It didn't work in Fall of Light and it didn't work here. Just go back to the good old battles! There was a big point about how Malazan marines give a shit and they are willing to die to protect others. Not just Malazans, but people. That was a great idea but the sacrifice was dulled because all characters we got to care about survived. I know that a lot of Malazans died saving Teblor and wilders but these were just nameless soldiers. I had no stake in their lives. The conclusion lacked the emotional punch it was intended to deliver. And sure, it saved me some heartbreak, but there was potential for a Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice levels of pain. Give me that pain!!
For a moment my heart was in my throat when Spindle and Oams got captured by Balk's sergeants and I was like 'nooo this is Trull Sengar level of senseless violence (but deep down there I was like yes, dear author, CRUSH MY SOUL ONE MORE TIME)' but that too was a false alarm, done and dusted in like 5 pages.

Talk of rape. I can't really put my finger to what exactly bothers me but I don't think SE ever handled the topic very well. In TGinW he does better, because we get a reminder of Karsa's horrible legacy, but it's still clumsy.

Anomander's cameo. His death was one of the highest points and most emotional moments of the entire series. Bringing him back takes away from the weight of his sacrifice. Bringing him back just to have Stillwater talk to shit to him is just... I don't know. Weird.

Marines buying into Mallick. There's this line from Spindle in the epilogue:

Quote

What worth an empire that turns its back on helpless people, its own citizens or otherwise? I wouldn't wear this uniform if it was any other way.'

Sorry, what? Mallick Rel is personally responsible for the death of Coltaine, crucifiction of 10,000 Malazan soldiers, death of countless refugees in the Chain of Dogs, persecution of the Wickans, outlawing Tavore and the Bonehunters, and a civil war. Spindle might not know all of that but he knows some of it. Malazan soldiers are portrayed as smart enough that it's just weird and out of character to believe Mallick and the empire are a benevolent force.

What I want to see next:


Karsa! I think that's a given but it will be great to see what he's up to in Darujhistan. His meeting with Rant is going to be great. Maybe the next novel is named The God is not Chilling (Anymore).

The new magic system. Let's find out what the runts are all about and how they interact with warrens and Azath.

That weird god Damisk released and K'Chain Che'Malle. I'm pretty sure we haven't seen the last of either. Especially that Rant carries the spirit of a Shi'gal assassin in his knife.

Jaghut grappling with the decay of Omtose Phellack. We haven't heard from Gothos and Hood in a while. They might have something to say about the latest developments.

This post has been edited by Siergiej: 03 October 2021 - 11:50 AM

[Mentalist]

Looking at the tread that grabs bits of SE's media comments about the trilo, prologue to Book 2 is likely to be in a ruined Azath House, and the book will take place in a different location, and then the stories will converge in 3.

I am now fully expecting Book 2 to be focused around Icarium and Ublala Pung as the relevant TTT figures.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

I decided to read this thread, and from what I gather, TGINW will feature a lot of military worship from Erikson which, if you know me, is one of the aspects of the Malazan series that I don't like.

I don't mind spoiling plot points here for myself because I'm not that much of a fan, and actually like the ideas presented in the books more than I like the books themselves.

[Keysi]

I'm a bit late to this convo but an additional thought to the why there's so many mages in the ranks now, I also remember something about a lack of Moranth munitions, which I suppose were a battlefield equivalent of magery. Just another way to blow shit up. So they lost the supply of munitions and replaced it with mages.

[the broken]

Done.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this really. I wasn't all that eager to pick it up because I don't much like Karsa. House of Chains is one of my favourite books, once you take out the Karsa bits. But I came across it in a bookshop and said 'what the hell'

Spoiler

In the end, he's not in it. 'The God is not Willing' and that includes appearing in his trilogy.

Malazan marines have become oddly, i don't know, superhero-ey? They were never monsters by any means, but in here they seem to all be straight up paragons. Everyone else has a range of personalities, but the marines specifically all seem quirkily awesome people. How does their entrance exam screen out all the unsavoury people so well these days?

Mallick has re organised the marines with more squad mages instead of high mages, and that has amped up their effectiveness. Fair enough, but this much? The marines were always scary. but they could also run into other scary people that were their match. A bunch of Imass Bonecasters start a ritual, and they just get swatted down easily. I know they're mortal Imass, but still. They didn't use to outclass everyone by quite so much.

It seemed rather unlikely that they could lay all those giant minefields without Balk noticing. Either the 2,000 troops laid them before he got there, which should have left some trace, or those three squads laid thousands upon thousands of mines in a few weeks? Don't know how they managed that.

It's good that we revisited Blood Oil woman, it's a truly horrific fate to leave someone to.

The story concept is great. I'm still not certain what I make of this. Nice to have a new Erikson though.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

the broken, on 09 June 2023 - 09:49 PM, said:

Done.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this really. I wasn't all that eager to pick it up because I don't much like Karsa. House of Chains is one of my favourite books, once you take out the Karsa bits. But I came across it in a bookshop and said 'what the hell'

Spoiler

In the end, he's not in it. 'The God is not Willing' and that includes appearing in his trilogy.

Malazan marines have become oddly, i don't know, superhero-ey? They were never monsters by any means, but in here they seem to all be straight up paragons. Everyone else has a range of personalities, but the marines specifically all seem quirkily awesome people. How does their entrance exam screen out all the unsavoury people so well these days?

Mallick has re organised the marines with more squad mages instead of high mages, and that has amped up their effectiveness. Fair enough, but this much? The marines were always scary. but they could also run into other scary people that were their match. A bunch of Imass Bonecasters start a ritual, and they just get swatted down easily. I know they're mortal Imass, but still. They didn't use to outclass everyone by quite so much.

It seemed rather unlikely that they could lay all those giant minefields without Balk noticing. Either the 2,000 troops laid them before he got there, which should have left some trace, or those three squads laid thousands upon thousands of mines in a few weeks? Don't know how they managed that.

It's good that we revisited Blood Oil woman, it's a truly horrific fate to leave someone to.

The story concept is great. I'm still not certain what I make of this. Nice to have a new Erikson though.

I had the same issue with HoC, Karsa's origin story was such a drag. The book does get better after that.

As posted earlier, my biggest problem with the Malazan books is how they ultimately boil down to worshipping the military. Erikson and Esslemont's fondness of the military becomes more obivious with each passing book, which strikes me as odd considering neither of them have done any military serivce. All major conflicts in the series are solved through military might, and latter books are full of passages of characters' internal monologues reflecting on how joining the Malazan military has changed their lives for the better. Also, it's not just the Malazan military, as Letherii society is portrayed a generally awful bu the Letherii military are portrayed in a positive light.

Having read through this thread has given me the impression that Erikson has only gotten more blatant in his military worship, which is why I have no inclination to read this book.

[the broken]

The thing about this kind of story is that they revolve around conflict, which happens via armies. The only other real way to do it is via Superheroes, where Quick Ben or Anomander Rake or Cotillion slaughter thousands by themselves.

I don't think that's any better. So how should storytellers get around it? What books do you like?

Note: This is not snarkiness, it's a legitimately interesting question

This post has been edited by the broken: 12 June 2023 - 05:23 PM

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

the broken, on 12 June 2023 - 05:09 PM, said:

The thing about this kind of story is that they revolve around conflict, which happens via armies. The only other real way to do it is via Superheroes, where Quick Ben or Anomander Rake or Cotillion slaughter thousands by themselves.

I don't think that's any better. So how should storytellers get around it? What books do you like?

Note: This is not snarkiness, it's a legitimately interesting question

The problem for me isn't the focus on the military per se, but rather that Erikson and Esslemont tend to portray the military as the best of the best, be they Malazan or otherwise. The Letherii military are presented the only redeeming aspect of Lether, and the Crimson Guard, the only force that has succesfully opposed the Malazan, are portrayed honourably and I suspect this is because they are a military organization. In fact the only military character who is unequivocally portrayed negatively is Korbolo Dom, and High Fist Pormqual doesn't count because I got the impression he only ascended to such a high ranking thanks to his nobility connections. All atrocities are commited by bureaucrats, mages, mindless hordes, disorganized bands and the like, but never by military characters. They're always above committing atrocities which I frankly find ludicrous.

This rosy view and championing of the military from two guys who've never done any military service rubs me the wrong way. I almost expected an afterword from them encouraging readers around the world to join their nearest military organization or something.

The parts I do enjoy in the Malazan books are the philosophical discussions and historical debates, the hints of past and long forgotten civilizations, and personally I think where Erikson's writing truly shines is the Bauchelain and Korbal Broach short stories.

Personally I like more narrative-focused books, which the Malazan books clearly are not.

[Abyss]

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 12 June 2023 - 07:14 PM, said:

...All atrocities are commited by bureaucrats, mages, mindless hordes, disorganized bands and the like, but never by military characters. They're always above committing atrocities which I frankly find ludicrous.

Tell me you haven't been paying attention to the books without telling me you haven't been paying attention to the books.

Since the beginning of Gardens of the Moon, apparently.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

Abyss, on 12 June 2023 - 07:59 PM, said:

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 12 June 2023 - 07:14 PM, said:

...All atrocities are commited by bureaucrats, mages, mindless hordes, disorganized bands and the like, but never by military characters. They're always above committing atrocities which I frankly find ludicrous.

Tell me you haven't been paying attention to the books without telling me you haven't been paying attention to the books.

Since the beginning of Gardens of the Moon, apparently.

You seem to have an issue with me not worshipping at the altar of the books.

[the broken]

I think perhaps the atrocities are played down a bit, but they are there. The marines purged the mouse quarter of mages. Korbolo's troops lined the road with crucified corpses. They tend to be more protagonisty characters, so we spend more time in their heads.

Spoiler

The Crimson Guard split into two factions, one more benevolent than the other.

The letherii army had factions and evil counterparts, Moroch Nevadd as counterpoint to Brys.

Return of the Crimson Guard is maybe the best one, where we get the Empire, the Old Guard, and the Crimson Guard, all of whom get a range of perspectives. The most positively portrayed people are probably the Wickans.

Sorry is sympathetic, but leaves a giant pile of corpses everywhere she goes.

The best of the best are the Seguleh, who slaughter the malazans toe to toe.

Storo's crew are pretty sympathetic, but they also unleashed Ryllandaras. The malazans slaughter Ghelel's foster family.

The people portrayed most negatively are Untan nobility, but we also get Paran, Rillish, and Tavore.

I don't really connect the Marines to any real world military, they most resemble the Roman legions, who didn't tend to be nice.

The thing about the authors is, they're archeologists, so they know about all the horrible things people do to each other, because they dig up the graves. We get both the evils of Karsa's tribe and the evils of civilisation (ie trying to slaughter the wickans)

I can see where you're coming from, but the depictions we get are more complicated than that.

This post has been edited by the broken: 13 June 2023 - 12:37 AM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 12 June 2023 - 07:14 PM, said:

The Letherii military are presented the only redeeming aspect of Lether

Forgetting about Tehol there or?...

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

the broken, on 13 June 2023 - 12:36 AM, said:

I think perhaps the atrocities are played down a bit, but they are there. The marines purged the mouse quarter of mages. Korbolo's troops lined the road with crucified corpses. They tend to be more protagonisty characters, so we spend more time in their heads.

Spoiler

The Crimson Guard split into two factions, one more benevolent than the other.

The letherii army had factions and evil counterparts, Moroch Nevadd as counterpoint to Brys.

Return of the Crimson Guard is maybe the best one, where we get the Empire, the Old Guard, and the Crimson Guard, all of whom get a range of perspectives. The most positively portrayed people are probably the Wickans.

Sorry is sympathetic, but leaves a giant pile of corpses everywhere she goes.

The best of the best are the Seguleh, who slaughter the malazans toe to toe.

Storo's crew are pretty sympathetic, but they also unleashed Ryllandaras. The malazans slaughter Ghelel's foster family.

The people portrayed most negatively are Untan nobility, but we also get Paran, Rillish, and Tavore.

I don't really connect the Marines to any real world military, they most resemble the Roman legions, who didn't tend to be nice.

The thing about the authors is, they're archeologists, so they know about all the horrible things people do to each other, because they dig up the graves. We get both the evils of Karsa's tribe and the evils of civilisation (ie trying to slaughter the wickans)

I can see where you're coming from, but the depictions we get are more complicated than that.

I don't find Tavore's portrayal positive in the slightest, and it's not until TCG when all of a sudden we're told Tavore is actually a deeply compassionate woman who's got everyone's best interest at heart, which I personally felt as Erikson employing narrative gaslighting on us readers.