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2020 Malazan Re-read: Forge of Darkness Begins April 1st

#1 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 25 March 2021 - 10:30 AM

2020 MALAZAN RE-READ: FORGE OF DARKNESS

Book description for FOD:

Quote

Now is the time to tell the story of an ancient realm, a tragic tale that sets the stage for all the tales yet to come and all those already told...

It's a conflicted time in Kurald Galain, the realm of Darkness, where Mother Dark reigns. But this ancient land was once home to many a power… and even death is not quite eternal. The commoners' great hero, Vatha Urusander, is being promoted by his followers to take Mother Dark's hand in marriage, but her Consort, Lord Draconus, stands in the way of such ambitions. The impending clash sends fissures throughout the realm, and as the rumors of civil war burn through the masses, an ancient power emerges from the long dead seas. Caught in the middle of it all are the First Sons of Darkness, Anomander, Andarist, and Silchas Ruin of the Purake Hold.


January 1st 2020 we began the re-read of the main series of the Malazan books. The plan being to read one book a month. We've now added additional Erikson and Esslemont publications to the schedule, to be read roughly according to the publication order.

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2020
January: Gardens of the Moon
February: Deadhouse Gates
March: Memories of Ice
April: House of Chains
May: Midnight Tides
June Night of Knives & The Bonehunters
July: Return of the Crimson Guard
August: Reaper's Gale
September: Stonewielder
October: Toll the Hounds
November: Orb Sceptre Throne
December: Dust of Dreams

2021
January: The Crippled God
February: Blood and Bone
March: Assail
April: Forge of Darkness
May: Fall of Light


You can read our thoughts from earlier months in these threads:

Quote



April 1st we begin the re-read of Forge of Darkness, the first book in the Kharkanas trilogy.

There will be spoilers for all published books. So beware. Spoiler blocks are not mandatory.

Are you ready? What do you remember about Forge of Darkness?

My memory is hazy. As far as I recall I didn't outright hate this book but I didn't enjoy it much either. It was a slow and ponderous book, continuing the trend of the later Malazan books. Lots of cool scenes where you learn new things about ancient characters but somehow still lacking in a greater sense.

I especially disliked the discovery that, rather than being this alien, extra dimensional, elementally attuned beings born out of Darkness and Light - The Tiste people are basically just another kind of human civilization, same kinds of culture, same kinds of politics, boring and mundane origins that ruin the mystique surrounding the Tiste races. On top of that, we learn that all these warrens and founding races were all just people on some kind of proto-Wu world, doing their thing, some here, some there - The books strips the reader of all these magical and amazing mental images and head canon we'd built up and replaces it with a reality that maybe fits Erikson's style of revisiting human history and human nature but fucking sucks as a fantasy setup. On top of that, not enough new mysteries are established to further the early wonder of getting into the series.

I did not like this book. And in turn I did not read Fall of Light. I may end up reading Forge of Darkness and Fall of Light if the third book finally gets published but I'm not exactly jumping up and down in anticipation.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 25 March 2021 - 10:30 AM

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#2 User is offline   Cyphon 

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Posted 25 March 2021 - 10:42 AM

Lol your memories really sold the urge to reread this one Apt.

Anyway started.

Arthan feels a bit mary sue to start with.

Dranconus sudden rise after sudden death of the house would reek of sinister doings in most plots/contexts.

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 25 March 2021 - 12:06 PM

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#3 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 25 March 2021 - 11:23 AM

I aim to please.
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#4 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 26 March 2021 - 02:55 AM

View PostAptorian, on 25 March 2021 - 10:30 AM, said:

My memory is hazy. As far as I recall I didn't outright hate this book but I didn't enjoy it much either. It was a slow and ponderous book, continuing the trend of the later Malazan books. Lots of cool scenes where you learn new things about ancient characters but somehow still lacking in a greater sense.

I especially disliked the discovery that, rather than being this alien, extra dimensional, elementally attuned beings born out of Darkness and Light - The Tiste people are basically just another kind of human civilization, same kinds of culture, same kinds of politics, boring and mundane origins that ruin the mystique surrounding the Tiste races. On top of that, we learn that all these warrens and founding races were all just people on some kind of proto-Wu world, doing their thing, some here, some there - The books strips the reader of all these magical and amazing mental images and head canon we'd built up and replaces it with a reality that maybe fits Erikson's style of revisiting human history and human nature but fucking sucks as a fantasy setup. On top of that, not enough new mysteries are established to further the early wonder of getting into the series.

I did not like this book. And in turn I did not read Fall of Light. I may end up reading Forge of Darkness and Fall of Light if the third book finally gets published but I'm not exactly jumping up and down in anticipation.


I did not like this book so much that I can't stomach trying to read it again now. I don't think it's bad... it's just absolutely not for me.

Well said on the Tiste-as-another-human-society thing. Feels like you could swap out the Tiste here for Imass Empire or First Empire humans or any of the other races that had nations in the long ago and not much would change. Kinda sours the idea of there being this humongous half a million years of civilization history across a dozen realms when each realm, each people, and each time period all end up being mostly the same.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#5 User is offline   Cyphon 

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Posted 26 March 2021 - 09:21 AM

It is quite a singular route of human development approach to one version of "civilisation" isn't it? Looking back at the Barghast it was like if you don't come out of tribes you're stunted and the positive associations throughout the malaz empire of we'll they may well be invaders/dictators, but they're benevolent ones who made life easier to live.

It's only the the Letheri that stand as a direct counterpoint to that.
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#6 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 26 March 2021 - 02:06 PM

The only thing I recall from it was the Glimmer Fate (cool concept) and (naked?) Triss making a horse made of long grass? And someone who worked there having a relationship with someone else...and in another place someone having themselves painted and being annoyed about it?

And then bits and pieces of the Rake family and hearths?

I got lost pretty quick.
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#7 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 28 March 2021 - 09:29 AM

I struggled so much with this book and as a result of it only managed 10% of FoL
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#8 User is offline   Stalker 

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Posted 28 March 2021 - 01:51 PM

I recall thinking this a dense book, but enjoying it. That said, by the release of Fall of Light I had forgotten enough of this novel to be confused off the bat.

Anomander was always this mysterious character in TMBotF. While we can speculate on his motivations based on his actions, and by what those who know him say about him, we don’t really know what he’s thinking. I’ve seen some interviews with Erikson talking about how alien it must be to have lived for hundreds of thousands of years, and how a direct choice was made to not have any Anomder point of view scenes. A choice that makes sense. It just seems strange to now see the Andii society at its outse, petty squabbles and all.

I may skip this and FoL, waiting on Walk in Shadow to do a full reread.
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#9 User is offline   ContrarianMalazanReader 

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Posted 29 March 2021 - 04:02 AM

I need some advice. I want to discuss each book individually in greater detail but I am unsure if I should start topics or post in Aptorian's threads, so please help me out.
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#10 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 08:16 AM

First read or reread?

If reread jump on the threads.

First read there are good threads in the forum's for each.

That said you'll likely catch a more in depth response in the reread threads as most people there have reread the whole series at least once
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#11 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 09:08 AM

If you've read all the books or don't mind spoilers, just use any of the appropriate reread threads but you can always make your own thread if you want. There's no rules about making your own threads, except not putting spoilers in thread titles.
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#12 User is offline   ContrarianMalazanReader 

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 04:50 PM

Since I have already read the full series all the way through, novels included, and know exactly how it all unfolds thus spoilers not being a concern, I will jump on the threads.

Thank you Aptorian and Macros for your advice and helping me make up my mind.
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#13 User is offline   Cyphon 

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 05:58 PM

So chomping through this. Interesting to see Anomander be an ass and demand an oath from Brood that presumably is still in play in the main series.

Lots of set up otherwise. Haut and the Jaghut are great as always.

The mystery set up around the emergence from the Vitr is good too.

Can't really be doing with all the unrequited love bits, all seem to be slight variations on that.

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 01 April 2021 - 05:58 PM

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#14 User is offline   Cyphon 

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 06:06 PM

T'riss' arrival was pretty momentous. Certainly less striking though after Jacacurku though.

Onto chapter 5.

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 03 April 2021 - 06:07 PM

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#15 User is offline   Cyphon 

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 10:05 PM

Chapter 5 is very satisfying classic travelogue fantasy fiction with the young hero coming of age and maturing.

Grizzin Farl's appearance is good if nothing more for the speculation on who Arthan's living mother is.
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#16 User is offline   Cyphon 

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 07:39 PM

So onto Chapter 8 and things starting to hot up and move beyond standard fantasy set up.

The shedding of Feren sets up some proper tension.

Grizzin Farl and Caladan Brood booze up was almost kruppe like in its word play and sets up Errastas and Lechul Sath... who appear from nowhere to kill a Jaghut on a jealous desire for power that just feels like an echo of the main series...

Let's get cracking!
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#17 User is offline   Cyphon 

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 08:49 AM

About 45% through. The classic medieval back biting stuff doesn't feel uniquely new, all the Azanthani stuff is far more intriguing. The squabbling, especially from the Legion is just fairly petty - which is realistic I suppose.

What was the forum speculation on Arthan's name making Olar laugh. Is it an Arthan/azanthani riff?

Olar consuming Raskan is pretty terrifying. Read it just before bed, which with all of the dreams about babies being sliced off was probably not the best idea.

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 17 April 2021 - 08:50 AM

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#18 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 18 April 2021 - 08:27 PM

I actually quite enjoyed this book, and FoL, though I agree that what we learn of the Tiste was quite the anti-climax.Loving all things Azathanai. Here we go with the first of quite a few thoughts.....

Prelude and Chapter 1-


Straight off the bat the line "Does one find memory in invention" really put me in mind of Icarium.

There really seems to be a huge theme of mental health throughout the first two books. Everything from Arathan constantly biting his nails (a minor mannerism), to the case of Tris having a broken mind and amnesia, just to the term "mind" being mentioned almost as much as shrugging in the first series, and then the Tiste woman with the handwashing OCD, which is in the next book I believe. Dunno mental health and illness just really stood out to me in these books.

Wee smile at the use of the term warrens

Why can Arathan expect no loyalty from mother dark?

Another wee smile at the term "wrashan", in reference to a creature that once lived in the forest. Rashan was a warren associated in the main series with shadow I believe, maybe dark. And the fact that its looking likely that first Edur are the forest dwelling Denniers. And that much of Emurhlan is forest in the "present day". Interesting. Just like Trull getting called Denier by the demon in MT.

Another strong theme coming through already is that of environmental damage, caused by Tiste over exploitation. Obviously a remark on how we humans are treating our world. It's been too long since I read the last few books of TMBotF, but does this theme come back into play when they discuss/travel to/arrive in Kharkanas? Seems to ring a bell but I could be wrong. I'm looking forward to rereading them when I pick up the main series again.

Chapter 2

Light light light!! Constant light imagery when we are introduced to Urusander getting his selfie painted. Nice.

Talks a bit about Kadapsala's eyes...nice foreshadowing.

Osserc being "destined for obscurity"....well, I don't think much needs to be elaborated on about that particular piece of blindness haha

Chapter 3

The intro to Korya is just brilliant and its impossible at this stage to know how to read it. "Not too many years ago....Korya had lived in another age...the sun was brighter.." etc. We really don't know what "not too many" years is for the standard Tiste never mind one we more than casually suspect of being some sort of soul shifting near immortal gonna be Quick Ben one day Tiste. Had lied in another age....could also be evidence of previous soul shifting? maybe, that might be a bit more reaching. And she is always daydreaming about being a goddess over her dolls....with what we learn later this might not be all that much of a fantasy. Just musing at this stage.

Future Hood might disagree with power over corpses being no power at all. As might some of the insanely cool necromancers we happen to meet.

I really love the Jheleck. And to a lesser extent I loved the Jheck in MBotF. Given their size and a hundred other different clues I'll get to eventually, I'd swear the soletaken pup hostages are the hounds of shadow from later. Becoming soletaken seems to be a really badass way of becoming an ascendant.

It really confuses me how the Jheleck are so formidable yet were "useless" when arranged as an army. It actually really surprises me how WELL the tiste do as an army against foes that tend to be far far superior in combat to them, but these are some of the few omniscient narrator occasions i'll just have to take as written.

Just like in the MBotF, I really feel we have been plopped in halfway through a story, rather than at the start 9whcih is what you would expect when reading an origins prequel), this is great in one way in that it continues to give age and gravity to the incredible world they have built, but I really did expect to be getting back to the start of things. Maybe we will get back to that in another prequel series on the First Tiste that are mentioned much later.

That whole bit where Nerys says to Ivis "compliments to LD for selecting such an honourable captain".... how are we supposed to read this, and how would it have been meant in our own medieval world? Would he genuinely have went back and told Draconus this (doubt it) or was that just the posh people's way of saying a goof thing about/to the lower orders without having to lower themselves to something so beneath them?

So much history of this already ancient world in this chapter. Hmmm


Sorry for the rambling nature of this post, but there will also be several more like it, I'm actually at chapter 18 and just been making notes in my kindle on the way along rather than post here. Should have been posting along with the reread but its been exam and coursework season. Ye ken how it is.
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#19 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 30 April 2021 - 10:17 PM

A bit abbreviated this time compared with the last....


How on whatever plant it is did the Tiste win so many wars...the Jheleck and the Forulkan are far more badass. Just saying.

Finarra will end up Edur... lots of talk about Shorelines when she's around, she preferred the shadows to darkness or light...

I could write for days about my questions about T'riss. K'rul - Kerulie. T'ren- Tayschrenn all come out of the Vitr in some way. Interesting In Erikson's languade, '(apostrophes) definetly mean something like past, in the past, of the past, dead. I think.

Cedorpul. Cedance. The Ceda. Significant? I can't remember but doesn't this priest become a powerful mage in Fall of Light? If so there could be a connection.

Do we ever actually find out who is the best fighter between the three brothers? Its hinted at at different stages it could be any of them.

The river god....so intruiguing...and anticlimactic.

As much as many of us think this is ancient Lether, I also think it will involve 7C in some way. Especially with regards to the Imass. Maybe in a smaller way tho.

No wonder Syntara hated the others, they were nasty to her.

Did anyone ever pick up on Mother Shecanto And Father Skelenal being kin to Mother Dark? And Huun Raal is of the same Issgn line? So the 3 heads of the warring religions (by next book) are related. I'll look into this more.


I never understood why Corporal whatshisname that Grip kills is more on the highborn side. A corporal is noncommissioned, i.e not an officer, i.e, not nobility. Same with Gripp tbh.

Oh the High King. Please oh please be Kallor. I'm assuming it is, what with how benevolent he is described as. I'm sure in an ICE book Kallor's subjects all love him as a benevolent ruler.


The whole thing about the three child sisters, and Arathan eventually coming into power is definetly their Ascending, it must be what all Azathanai have to go through. Death then their power. Just like many ascensions we hear about later. Awakened is the term used at some point. Ascension, basically.


So this is a big one, but once or twice the Tiste are referred to as human. Once definetly during the horrific scene with Narad and Enesedia. The term human is definetly used. This cannot be meaningless surely?

So there was once Tiste First Heroes. Who basically drank of Tiam, ascended and ruled until the Azathanai did something about it. Love the term First heroes, just like the First Empire. Not only do I want books about the Tiste First Heroes now, I have wanted books about the First Empire First heroes for years now. I wonder if Erikson is doing requests. I kinda feel like the histroy/mythology lesson we got about that tapestry about the Tiste First Heros was the story we all expected to be getting with these books. Alas.

Love Hish Tulla's wee inner monologue about a society of equals/all highborn being "unworkable"....in her little imagining of it its clear that its only the Highborn who are not required, not that she realises this. Nice.

Inhuman mentioned there again actually.

Is a Terondai similar to a Finnest?

Is Gothos more powerful than Hood? He chained him?

I didn't understand why the Bordersword who intends on taking the message of Raskan's death back to Dracons lands doesn't just take the fucking body too? Would have saved all that debate and arsing around.

The butterfly reference does seem like evidence that Grizzin Fral is the butterfly divers at the end of the crippled god.

Why does Silchas bang on about Anomander waiting...doing nothing. You're a man, Silchas, do something yourself.

More references to the Shore. Love it.


Ja..... so....just my rambled jumbled thoughts. If I'd kept apace with the readthrough I'd have engaged in actual conversation. Hopefully with FoL. Sorry its such a mess, though I doubt anyone will read to reply.
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#20 User is offline   Cyphon 

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 06:09 PM

I am still reading.

Really pleased to see your posts Keysi but haven't had the wherewithal to respond to them.
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