[Macros]

I would be surprised if "quite a significant number" was a remotely significant number.

I have several cousins who are doctors and my wife works in the hospital, they're all vaxxed up and no word of any anti vaccine sentiment from any of them

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Malankazooie, on 16 August 2021 - 05:42 PM, said:

Was listening to morning drive discussion about there being quite a significant number of health care professionals who have refused to get vaccinated. I wonder why that is? They are in it and have seen the devastation. I don't get it.

From June: 'The rate of vaccination is pretty much inverse of the education level of staff. Among practicing physicians [in the United States], 96% have been [fully] vaccinated. The rate drops to <50% among nurses and even more among aides, especially in nursing homes, even though outbreaks and deaths have been the worst in that setting.'

https://www.forbes.c...sh=4eda361a589e

'The reasons behind the healthcare workers' vaccine hesitancy were varied, with the most common reasons cited being how quickly the vaccine was developed, insufficient safety and effectiveness data, a disbelief that the vaccine would protect them from COVID-19 infection, and concerns about serious side effects. Nurses were much more likely than physicians, nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, and physician assistants to be vaccine hesitant. Physicians were almost uniformly in favor of the vaccine. Other staff who don't provide clinical care, such as food service workers and security personnel, had higher rates of vaccine hesitancy.

Respondents who had previously been infected with COVID-19 were more likely to be vaccine hesitant, as were women and Black employees. [...]

[...] systemic racism in health care can cause deeply rooted mistrust of the healthcare landscape and can deter people of color from pursuing the vaccine.'

https://www.modernhe...-covid-vaccines

On vaccine hesitancy among Black Americans:

'The access issues early on for convenience in our communities and the ability, in the early stages, to register were also complicated by our relative disenfranchisement from internet sites and being facile with being able to play the registration online game. That no longer is an issue.

Now, what we're left with is a harder-to-reach group of people who for a variety of reasons are acting upon not only distrust of America's elites, America's infrastructures—because of the politicization of the pandemic and the vaccine in particular by former President Trump, who has hurt us in ways that are just almost incalculable—we also are being targeted very deliberately by people pushing misinformation. And then finally, we are being very much victimized by an underlying anger. We're just angry. And the social media anger is really causing us challenges at being able to try to get people to accept this sort of intelligent and science-based guidance.

[...] our response to the Tuskegee syphilis study, which is, when you think of it, very counterintuitive. A study where Black men were denied access to a drug that would have saved them. Now, in our legitimate anger about the outrageousness of that study, across this country, many, many, many people of color are saying, "Well, because of Tuskegee, I'm going to now deny myself access to the very vaccine that could save my life." [...]

[...] during the AIDS epidemic in the '80s[...] on every radio show that I did, it was always Tuskegee, Tuskegee, Tuskegee. "This is a plot by the white man to kill Black people." "It was made in a lab at the CIA." It's very frightening. And then of course it was us against them, me against you. "I'm not going to do what I need to do to protect my sexual partner because it's all a plot." And so often I'd be on a phone call like this with you, and a person would call in and say, "Well, this is a plot against Black people developed by the white man and the CIA." And then I would ask, "Brother, what does that got to do with you wearing a condom tonight with your lady?" And all of a sudden, it was like, "Well, I don't have to wear a condom because I can't get it and she can't get it because it's not even a real disease."'

https://slate.com/te...kegee-aids.html

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 16 August 2021 - 09:52 PM

[Malankazooie]

That's exactly the point that was made on the radio program this morning. Doctors mostly vaccinated. Nurses and CNAs, not as much. And the number of unvaccinated health professionals is more prevalent in the American South. And if you've ever been in the hospital, you know you rarely see the doctor. At least that was my experience when I was laid up for a few days after an auto accident (concussion, cracked pelvis). Nurse and CNAs checking in throughout the day and night. Saw the doctor upon entry and once again on exit. It's a hell of a thing if a nurse or CNA are doing the rounds and are not vaccinated.

This post has been edited by Malankazooie: 16 August 2021 - 10:04 PM

[amphibian]

glasseye, on 16 August 2021 - 05:51 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 16 August 2021 - 05:42 PM, said:

Was listening to morning drive discussion about there being quite a significant number of health care professionals who have refused to get vaccinated. I wonder why that is? They are in it and have seen the devastation. I don't get it.

They are also disproportionally exposed to the negative impacts of healthcare (ie when things go wrong) which can skew perspective.

Dr. Tressie McMilliam-Cottom put it pretty well in a tweet. She's a sociologist who has done a ton of work in education, how different people of different backgrounds + classes + ethnicities access education, leverage it, pay for it, fail out of it etc.

In short, her summary of what's going on with nursing is that nursing education is an incredibly mixed bag.

There's many levels of nursing, different requirements for certifications, different certifications, different sets of responsibilities, tons of explicit and implicit bias, an industry wide association with police (usually US police are very right wing and in general, not pro vaccination), and a place within the medical industry of some prestige that comes with frequent experience of discrimination or workplace abuse from doctors, administration, and patients.

In addition to this, many nurses do not work where COVID patients are. They don't see the hell that NYC, northern Italy, Brazil etc became (not to leave out the many other areas and nursing homes/adult living facility). The hospitals shut down elective treatments and surgeries as preventative care and I saw nurses complaining about how they had nothing to do, which mean that COVID was bullshit.

There are other things that contribute to this, but it's a product of extreme selfishness among some, a group of mostly white women who don't want things to change for the worse for them, many industry wide things cumulating into absurdity, and more.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Texas officials ask US government for mortuary trucks as Covid cases rise'


https://www.theguard...mortuary-trucks


... maybe just in time to pick up:


'Texas Gov. Greg Abbott Tests Positive for COVID-19


[...] vaccinated in 2020'

https://www.snopes.c...g-abbott-covid/


So that's at least 7 and a half months... well, I'll be sure to pray for him....

[Malankazooie]

So I guess the recommendation is going to be booster shot eight months after your last vaccination. I was under the impression it would be more of a seasonal schedule, like the flu and when autumn rolls around you see "get your shots" signs up at the local Walgreens. I guess that's the mindset of the old paradigm, but the booster shot thing will be an on going deal though that will need to be annually scheduled, right?

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Malankazooie, on 18 August 2021 - 06:40 PM, said:

So I guess the recommendation is going to be booster shot eight months after your last vaccination. I was under the impression it would be more of a seasonal schedule, like the flu and when autumn rolls around you see "get your shots" signs up at the local Walgreens. I guess that's the mindset of the old paradigm, but the booster shot thing will be an on going deal though that will need to be annually scheduled, right?

Probably, unless COVID-19 becomes more like 'the common cold' (unlikely in the near term, though scientists have speculated about one of the 'common cold' coronaviruses having started out as a deadly pandemic) or a highly effective universal coronavirus vaccine gets developed (apparently it's promising but iirc it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere near as much funding as the first batch of vaccines).

Naturally Texas Governor Abbott already had a third shot before getting COVID-19, and tragically he's (supposedly) experiencing 'no symptoms'. Wonder how many other anti-mask, pandemic-downplaying reactionaries have secretly gotten boosters.

'Top DeSantis Donor Invested Millions in COVID Drug Governor Is Pushing'

https://www.thedaily...rnor-is-pushing

... so Florida Governor Desantis has a vested interested in making the pandemic worse to sell more of that drug, which translates into more in donations for him.

[Edit: also new Israeli study suggests 'Third Pfizer dose 86% effective in over 60s'

https://www.reuters....ays-2021-08-18/

]

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 18 August 2021 - 07:18 PM

[Lady Bliss]

Since Abbot has no symptoms, he shouldn’t be getting the antibody treatment that the common man can’t afford. If he was a gentleman or at least wanted to pretend to be, he would skip it and donate the treatment to someone “less fortunate”. God, I hate Texas, and wish I hadn’t had to move back.

[Gust Hubb]

Lady Bliss, on 18 August 2021 - 07:20 PM, said:

Since Abbot has no symptoms, he shouldn't be getting the antibody treatment that the common man can't afford. If he was a gentleman or at least wanted to pretend to be, he would skip it and donate the treatment to someone "less fortunate". God, I hate Texas, and wish I hadn't had to move back.

Agree.

[Maark Abbott]

Lady Bliss, on 18 August 2021 - 07:20 PM, said:

Since Abbot has no symptoms, he shouldn't be getting the antibody treatment that the common man can't afford. If he was a gentleman or at least wanted to pretend to be, he would skip it and donate the treatment to someone "less fortunate". God, I hate Texas, and wish I hadn't had to move back.

Isn't Texas' nickname 'the fuck you state' or something? I can sort of see why if that's the case...

[QuickTidal]

Case numbers are rising again in Ontario, as is our ICU (which is the important #), so at this point we are being held hostage between the 20% Unvaccinated/anti-vaxxers who are still getting nailed by Delta...and Doug Ford for refusing to install Vaccine Passports for all businesses so that us Vaccinated people who did our part can go live our lives, while the unvaxxed languish in their stupidity unable to do anything.

And I mean, he WILL do it eventually...there is not a chance in holy hell he pulls out another lockdown with 80% of us fully vaxxed, it would be more political suicide than he's already committed...the ICU's even getting close to max (which would not take long) will push his hand.....but this dragging his fucking feet getting there is insufferable.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Damn this is tempting:

'Come out and dance in the streets — but only after you've had a free vaccine.

[...] vaccination vans will be lined up along Broad Street alongside live music, food, games, performances from the 76ers dance team, and more for a one-day-only vaccine parade. Both the Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccines will be available. No appointment, insurance or ID is needed to be vaccinated. Masks are required.'

Not the parade---being able to get a shot without ID, and without having to travel too far or into relatively dangerous neighborhoods. Seems like an easy way to get a booster shot of Pfizer (my first two were Moderna). OTOH I've only been fully vaccinated for a little over a month. More importantly, I've got a lot to do over the next week and a half, and I probably shouldn't risk sacrificing a few days to recovering....

Wonder if I'd have to make up a name, address, and phone number to avoid getting flagged. Hm.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 20 August 2021 - 03:15 PM

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 20 August 2021 - 03:15 PM, said:

Seems like an easy way to get a booster shot of Pfizer (my first two were Moderna). OTOH I've only been fully vaccinated for a little over a month.

Is it okay to get a booster only a month after your second dose? I would figure the interval would be longer, at least 6-8 weeks or more, no?

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 20 August 2021 - 03:21 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 20 August 2021 - 03:15 PM, said:

Seems like an easy way to get a booster shot of Pfizer (my first two were Moderna). OTOH I've only been fully vaccinated for a little over a month.

Is it okay to get a booster only a month after your second dose? I would figure the interval would be longer, at least 6-8 weeks or more, no?

By 'fully vaccinated' I mean 2 weeks after my second dose; this would be just over 6 weeks after my second shot.

But IDK, you only need 4 weeks between the initial Moderna shots---I don't think it's really been studied. Getting a booster too soon afterwards could backfire though:

'getting a booster shot too soon could have negative consequences.


Overstimulating the immune system can make it harder for your body to fight off some infections [...] while that hasn't been shown to happen with the coronavirus yet, it happens frequently with malaria.'


https://www.advisory.../covid-boosters


... so I'll wait at least until I'm done with this project, maybe until after I then catch up with my coursework....

[Malankazooie]

I think a good number of these promotions are to a ) entice the idiots who haven't been vaccinated, and who haven't completely fell down the anti-vax conspiracy rabbit hole, to get the shot and b ) if you are in the category of benefiting from a booster, to go ahead get the booster shot. Otherwise these shots will expire and be wasted.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Just double checked that side effects from the booster shot are similar to those from the second dose... looks that way:

Pfizer and Moderna: 'the adverse event profile was similar to that after the second dose'

CDC: 'So far, reactions reported after the third mRNA dose were similar to that of the two-dose series: fatigue and pain at injection site were the most commonly reported side effects, and overall, most symptoms were mild to moderate.'

https://www.cbs17.co...-covid-19-shot/

[Gust Hubb]

I saw this horrible post on a friend's (probably soon to be ex-friend) Facebook profile:

This is about choice I have held the hands of your loved ones dying bc you made the choice for your mental health to not be there
I have preformed CPR on your loved ones who had a DNR bc you made the choice to rescind it.
I have taken care of the drunk driver who ultimately killed the person in the next room because they made the choice to drive
I have stood in the room with a brain dead patient who could save numerous lives and been supportive when you made the choice to not organ donate.
I have taken care of the addict who made the choice to relapse
I have taken care of the patient who made the choice to stop or not manage their insulin
I’ve taken care of the alcoholic going through withdrawals who threw me up against a wall
I have held the baby who’s mother made the choice adoption was right for her
I have had compassion for the mother who decided abortion was the right choice
I supported my dad when he made the choice to continue chemotherapy after told hospice was right
I’ve taken care of your family member who should have been let peacefully pass but family chose to do everything for them until they finally gave out.
I’ve honored religious choices concerning medical care I didn’t understand bc it cost them their life.
I have made the choice to leave my kids home sick so I could come to work and take care of your dying loved ones
I have made the choice to sacrifice time with my family to get the education I needed so I could be more valuable as a medical professional
I’ve sacrificed holidays, weekends, time, sleep and events with my family to choose to be there for yours
And somehow my education, experience, talent and career comes down to an ultimatum taking away MY choice. I’m not pro or anti but what I am is for every individual’s right to have choices not ultimatums.
Am I somehow less valuable because I choose differently? Am I somehow less skilled or talented bc I make a conflicting choice from what I’m being told to do because I feel like it’s best for ME? The answer is no.
#stopthemandate #mandate #freedomofchoice #heathcareworkers #protectyourfamily #hallofmearspodcast #sharemystory

This is how I responded:

I completely agree this is beautifully written with a lot of deep thoughts and feelings. However, ultimately the logic of her post and message is deeply flawed and the overall conclusion is dangerous.


Let me first establish that I am in the medical field with years of training and experience behind me.


The core of her argument is that choice is a fundamental right and should not be impinged upon. I understand the sentiment, the desire to live life as you wish and see best. I would point out that people naturally have choices, even in the context of rules and mandates. What doesn't exist is a world without consequences and collateral damage. What doesn't exist is a world without rules or restrictions (e.g. true anarchy).


The mask mandate is a choice in and of itself, built upon the actions of elected officials who were presumably fairly chosen by constituents to act on (chose) those constituents' behalf. In that way, the mask mandate is a choice by those who live under that government.


Even removing the choice of masks and vaccines from the larger frame of government and politics, one has to contend with the concept of simple morality and social norms in the debate of whether to cover one's face or not. If we agree upon the concept of the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do to you, wearing a mask is a given. Think on this: in sharing a space with someone, public or private, your presence impacts them in some shape or form. This means that your choices have consequences that limit the choices for the other person.


You can argue that the drunk driver cannot be denied his choice of intoxicated travel, but can you then argue that the drunk driver's choice had no impact on the person who's car they wrecked? And did the drunk driver's victim get a "fair" choice, unaffected by surrounding circumstances? Sure, you can argue that the victim had a choice whether to drive or not in such a dangerous environment, arguing that the wreck and their injury was also their fault. Does that ring true to you? If it does, I am afraid I cannot understand you.


The same is true of masks. Masks prevent the aerosolization of respiratory droplets, a confirmed transmission route of COVID and other respiratory pathogens. So when someone does not wear a mask and unknowingly aerosolized COVID (the symptoms of which may not affect them more than a common cold), their choice removes choices from those around them. In a hospital, this unbound choice of masks can destroy immune-compromised patients who have less options and need hospital care. Even in general society, as we see in the Southern United states, the choice of not wearing masks or getting vaccinated can dramatically change the risk-level of an environment. Going back to the drunk driver analogy, if a state allows intoxicated driving saying it is a person's choice and that choice will not be prosecuted, do you think the roads would be safer?


Because not everyone believes the same thing (even the golden rule) and because not everyone exhibits the same morality, we create the paradigm of a society which is defined by rules and consequences. Rules provide a contract by which the society's members live. In a "free" society, the members of the society have input into these rules collectively. But regardless, there are still rules. You drive on the right side of the street. You cannot go out and shoot anyone you like because you feel like it. Rules. And by virtue of their existence, rules modify the consequences of choices (like drunk driving) to encourage or discourage certain choices. Someone can still go out and kill a random person, but consequences bring "justice" to the person who decides to become a killer.


Bringing it all together in summary, choices are present even with rules and mandates. Choices by virtue of acting on an environment and changing it impact other people in that environment. Often, choices change the choices available to other people. Rules and consequences are part and parcel of creating a society, which is a group of people living together under a shared social contract.


And in my opinion, a society where the absolute right of any choice trumps the safety, health, and needs of fellow humans is a society in decline.

This post has been edited by Gust Hubb: 21 August 2021 - 02:11 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Gust Hubb, on 21 August 2021 - 02:10 PM, said:

I saw this horrible post on a friend's (probably soon to be ex-friend) Facebook profile:

This is about choice I have held the hands of your loved ones dying bc you made the choice for your mental health to not be there
I have preformed CPR on your loved ones who had a DNR bc you made the choice to rescind it.
I have taken care of the drunk driver who ultimately killed the person in the next room because they made the choice to drive
I have stood in the room with a brain dead patient who could save numerous lives and been supportive when you made the choice to not organ donate.
I have taken care of the addict who made the choice to relapse
I have taken care of the patient who made the choice to stop or not manage their insulin
I've taken care of the alcoholic going through withdrawals who threw me up against a wall
I have held the baby who's mother made the choice adoption was right for her
I have had compassion for the mother who decided abortion was the right choice
I supported my dad when he made the choice to continue chemotherapy after told hospice was right
I've taken care of your family member who should have been let peacefully pass but family chose to do everything for them until they finally gave out.
I've honored religious choices concerning medical care I didn't understand bc it cost them their life.
I have made the choice to leave my kids home sick so I could come to work and take care of your dying loved ones
I have made the choice to sacrifice time with my family to get the education I needed so I could be more valuable as a medical professional
I've sacrificed holidays, weekends, time, sleep and events with my family to choose to be there for yours
And somehow my education, experience, talent and career comes down to an ultimatum taking away MY choice. I'm not pro or anti but what I am is for every individual's right to have choices not ultimatums.
Am I somehow less valuable because I choose differently? Am I somehow less skilled or talented bc I make a conflicting choice from what I'm being told to do because I feel like it's best for ME? The answer is no.
#stopthemandate #mandate #freedomofchoice #heathcareworkers #protectyourfamily #hallofmearspodcast #sharemystory

This is how I responded:

I completely agree this is beautifully written with a lot of deep thoughts and feelings. However, ultimately the logic of her post and message is deeply flawed and the overall conclusion is dangerous.


Let me first establish that I am in the medical field with years of training and experience behind me.


The core of her argument is that choice is a fundamental right and should not be impinged upon. I understand the sentiment, the desire to live life as you wish and see best. I would point out that people naturally have choices, even in the context of rules and mandates. What doesn't exist is a world without consequences and collateral damage. What doesn't exist is a world without rules or restrictions (e.g. true anarchy).


The mask mandate is a choice in and of itself, built upon the actions of elected officials who were presumably fairly chosen by constituents to act on (chose) those constituents' behalf. In that way, the mask mandate is a choice by those who live under that government.


Even removing the choice of masks and vaccines from the larger frame of government and politics, one has to contend with the concept of simple morality and social norms in the debate of whether to cover one's face or not. If we agree upon the concept of the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do to you, wearing a mask is a given. Think on this: in sharing a space with someone, public or private, your presence impacts them in some shape or form. This means that your choices have consequences that limit the choices for the other person.


You can argue that the drunk driver cannot be denied his choice of intoxicated travel, but can you then argue that the drunk driver's choice had no impact on the person who's car they wrecked? And did the drunk driver's victim get a "fair" choice, unaffected by surrounding circumstances? Sure, you can argue that the victim had a choice whether to drive or not in such a dangerous environment, arguing that the wreck and their injury was also their fault. Does that ring true to you? If it does, I am afraid I cannot understand you.


The same is true of masks. Masks prevent the aerosolization of respiratory droplets, a confirmed transmission route of COVID and other respiratory pathogens. So when someone does not wear a mask and unknowingly aerosolized COVID (the symptoms of which may not affect them more than a common cold), their choice removes choices from those around them. In a hospital, this unbound choice of masks can destroy immune-compromised patients who have less options and need hospital care. Even in general society, as we see in the Southern United states, the choice of not wearing masks or getting vaccinated can dramatically change the risk-level of an environment. Going back to the drunk driver analogy, if a state allows intoxicated driving saying it is a person's choice and that choice will not be prosecuted, do you think the roads would be safer?


Because not everyone believes the same thing (even the golden rule) and because not everyone exhibits the same morality, we create the paradigm of a society which is defined by rules and consequences. Rules provide a contract by which the society's members live. In a "free" society, the members of the society have input into these rules collectively. But regardless, there are still rules. You drive on the right side of the street. You cannot go out and shoot anyone you like because you feel like it. Rules. And by virtue of their existence, rules modify the consequences of choices (like drunk driving) to encourage or discourage certain choices. Someone can still go out and kill a random person, but consequences bring "justice" to the person who decides to become a killer.


Bringing it all together in summary, choices are present even with rules and mandates. Choices by virtue of acting on an environment and changing it impact other people in that environment. Often, choices change the choices available to other people. Rules and consequences are part and parcel of creating a society, which is a group of people living together under a shared social contract.


And in my opinion, a society where the absolute right of any choice trumps the safety, health, and needs of fellow humans is a society in decline.

Not clear whether they're referring to mandatory vaccination for people who want to work as medical professionals or for all people. Sure, they can 'choose' to break the law and drive drunk, and a surgeon can 'choose' to come to work obviously plastered (falling down drunk open heart surgery?), but that surgeon won't be allowed to perform surgery (at the hospital at least---hopefully---unless they start cutting into the guards, or bystanders, etc....). If they're afraid of being physically forced to take the vaccine---held down and jabbed (or shot---with a dart maybe?) etc.---well choosing to break the law will (in many cases) result in being physically stopped. These are choices they're not allowed to make without the state physically forcing them to do otherwise. One could argue that mandatory vaccination for all would be different because instead of the state forbidding certain choices it is forcing people to do something or have something done to them. But 'having something done to them' also applies to public health measures like water treatment. And forcing people to do things---beyond their simple choice to continue living---includes things like telling people they have to move if they choose not to pay their rent, or if they choose to block traffic or defecate on the street, etc. The strongest counterargument might be that people can't simply 'choose' to move someplace that won't mandate vaccination.

But their inclusion of drunk driving as a 'choice' people are allowed to make---without any mention of the fact that drunk driving is illegal (assuming they're not in some country where it's legal) and police will try to stop people for it---suggests either bad faith or a lack of basic critical thinking skills (perhaps a troll farm screening for the gullible or willfully ignorant?).

Possible source seems to be the Facebook page 'We Are All Essential':

https://www.facebook...areallessential

Another recent post of theirs:

'Heartbreaking…..
·
22h
"Biden was instructed by China to remove American troops from Afghanistan and he did it. It had NOTHING to do with wanting to end a war and EVERYTHING to do with what he & Hunter were paid for;
Biden's orders from Beijing are to destroy America so China becomes a global hegemon." Candace Owens'

Didn't notice any overt COVD-19 conspiracy theories, but Facebook might still be censoring those.... 'We Are All Essential' might be a mutation of 'All Lives Matter'.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 22 August 2021 - 03:45 AM

[Tiste Simeon]

Yeah I wouldn't pay much attention to anyone quoting Candace Owens as a serious source.

This post has been edited by Tiste Simeon: 21 August 2021 - 09:21 PM

[Tsundoku]

Once again, in Dumstraya:

https://www.news.com...b042c2673ae23a8

TL:DR? This handy infographic will sum it up for you.

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This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 22 August 2021 - 12:42 AM