[Tsundoku]

QuickTidal, on 05 October 2023 - 11:36 AM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 05 October 2023 - 07:50 AM, said:

The tory party conference was insane enough that it somehow wound up with fucking BORIS of all people coming across as the sanest component. BORIS. SANE. Make it make SENSE.

To be fair, the "dopey, messy hair, idiot" Boris was always an act to rope in the people who thought he was on their level....Boris Johnson is highly educated (He went to Eton, and then studied Classics at Balliol) and underneath the facade is very sane....he just knew what would sell to his voters back when he put in the "Herpa Derp" routine.

Sounds a bit like another fat dipshit with messy hair who can't keep it in his pants. Although his derp is a lot more ... honest? If that word can even be used in the context of the Great Orange Turd. But it plays better to his base, who are blessedly untroubled by such nuisances as "Thought".

[QuickTidal]

Tsundoku, on 05 October 2023 - 12:43 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 05 October 2023 - 11:36 AM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 05 October 2023 - 07:50 AM, said:

The tory party conference was insane enough that it somehow wound up with fucking BORIS of all people coming across as the sanest component. BORIS. SANE. Make it make SENSE.

To be fair, the "dopey, messy hair, idiot" Boris was always an act to rope in the people who thought he was on their level....Boris Johnson is highly educated (He went to Eton, and then studied Classics at Balliol) and underneath the facade is very sane....he just knew what would sell to his voters back when he put in the "Herpa Derp" routine.

Sounds a bit like another fat dipshit with messy hair who can't keep it in his pants. Although his derp is a lot more ... honest? If that word can even be used in the context of the Great Orange Turd. But it plays better to his base, who are blessedly untroubled by such nuisances as "Thought".

Oh no, I think Trump is an idiot...like "didn't pay attention in school" idiot...like his dad gave him his first few million and he squandered it to the point where he had to get in bed with Russian Oligarchs in the mid-90's to prop him up. He DUMB.

[Maark Abbott]

QuickTidal, on 05 October 2023 - 11:36 AM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 05 October 2023 - 07:50 AM, said:

The tory party conference was insane enough that it somehow wound up with fucking BORIS of all people coming across as the sanest component. BORIS. SANE. Make it make SENSE.

To be fair, the "dopey, messy hair, idiot" Boris was always an act to rope in the people who thought he was on their level....Boris Johnson is highly educated (He went to Eton, and then studied Classics at Balliol) and underneath the facade is very sane....he just knew what would sell to his voters back when he put in the "Herpa Derp" routine.

Highly educated doesn't necessarily mean not stupid, unfortunately. The amount of highly educated people in my profession who are stupid is... depressing

[Tsundoku]

Hamas and Gaza. Like the world needed another excuse for more war and/or escalation of current hostilities.

And they are targetting civilians deliberately. Some truly nasty pics and videos out there, I suggest you avoid.

The grunts of Hamas think they've done this great thing, but they have no idea what they have unleashed. Israel now have their unifying moment and unless someone physically stops them they will do their best to exterminate Gaza. Very few Israelis or their supporters will be calling for restraint, and those who do will find their support drops.

I guess all the RWNJs the world over will be creaming their pants as their precious apocalypse gets closer.
But the funny part is even if they are right, what makes them think any Christian-style God would have them in Heaven?

Amazing how Israeli Intelligence was caught with their pants down over this. I guess noone is talking about Bibi's legislative overreach and judicial worries any more, huh?

And as usual it's the bulk of the population on all sides who just want to get on with their lives and not bother anyone who are suffering.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Tsundoku, on 08 October 2023 - 01:05 AM, said:

Amazing how Israeli Intelligence was caught with their pants down over this. I guess noone is talking about Bibi's legislative overreach and judicial worries any more, huh?

Quote

[...] the anger of millions of Israelis including many close to their security services was also directed at what was seen as the catastrophic mismanagement of Israeli national security by [...] Netanyahu and his administration.

[...] Russia called for "restraint." [...]

[...] surge of criticism of [Netanyahu] that senior Israelis with whom I spoke said was "without precedent." [...] "The Israeli army warned Netanyahu for months that his push for government overhaul put Israel at great risk of a multi-front attack. He dismissed their warnings by accusing the military of "joining the left-wing protestors" against him. His ministers said the army could go to hell."

Retired Israeli general Amos Gilad said, "The sources of this catastrophe lie in the regime change" (referring to the ascent of Netanyahu's new ultra-[right-wing] government.) [...]

Israel's opposition leader Yair Lapid offered to work with Netanyahu in an emergency government of national unity, asserting Israel would be incapable of waging a war with a team as "extreme and dysfunctional" as Netanyahu's current extremist circle.

[...] while "Hamas leadership is unlikely to survive what is happening today… it is difficult to imagine how exactly Netanyahu survives this catastrophic failure and the inevitable [...] investigation to follow."

Hapless Netanyahu Was Totally Unprepared for Attack (thedailybeast.com)

Quote

[...] The perimeter fence is equipped with a sensor and camera array. Any passing tractor getting near it puts the army on high alert. What happened to the sensors? Moreover, civilians near the border have been complaining for more than a month of large-scale Hamas drills taking place very near the fence. Did nobody else see it? Many Israelis, who over the tumultuous last year lost faith in their state institutions, are starting to spread conspiracy theories. Is this a ploy to boot the extremist factions out of the coalition and open the way for an alliance with the centrist opposition parties? Is this a way to get rid of Bibi Netanyahu? Or is the national emergency a cover for an authoritarian takeover?

[...] the deep social divide tearing Israelis apart since the current, extremist coalition's rise to power continues to rage on social media. [...]

[...] protesters are calling to overthrow the [far right] coalition and put its members—many of whom did not serve in the army at all [because Ultra-Orthodox are given religious exemptions]—on trial, blaming them for prioritizing the safety of West Bank settlers over the civilians in the south: only yesterday, a number of battalions were dispatched to protect a Sukkah, a ritual hut, constructed by messianic members of Netanyahu's coalition in the main street of the Palestinian village Huwara.

[...] "[...] 22 battalions were stationed in the West Bank, along with other units. 600-800 are routinely protecting about 800 settlers… [...] "as evidence mounts, it becomes clear that the Gaza Division was moved to the West Bank" and "The Strip was almost entirely abandoned."

The Day Israel Changed Forever (thedailybeast.com)

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 08 October 2023 - 01:36 AM

[Tsundoku]

Interesting, was not aware of that diversion of resources.
Still, I think any criticism will be deflected with "we'll sort it out later, we have to be united now ..." etc etc etc.

Russia calling for restraint is just ... no words.

EDIT
KSA also calling for "restraint". If it wasn't so gob-smackingly hypocritical (see: Russia) it would be hilarious.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 08 October 2023 - 01:50 AM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Yesterday:

Quote

It is less clear why Hamas would be willing to pay such a steep price for its day of victory. [...] many wondering whether this surprise attack [...] has other phases still to come that would justify the result. The most obvious next step would be the opening of a northern front, across the Lebanon border, by Iran's proxy Hezbollah. Israel has announced the activation of reserves and alerts in the north. But the disarray in the south is so wild that one could reasonably doubt Israel's ability to keep things together on two fronts.

[...] If war breaks out generally around Israel, and questions arise about Israel's very survival, the United States will have to start counting its ammunition. How much is left for Israel, after Ukraine has taken its share? And what about Taiwan, now third in line? These are hard questions, and Iran, Russia, and China would be thrilled, collectively and separately, to force them on the United States.

A Historic Cataclysm in the Middle East (msn.com)

Today:

Quote

Lebanon's Hezbollah militants joined the battle by firing missiles into the north of the country.

[...] Israeli military insiders [said] earlier this year that co-ordination between Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah was growing and risked spilling over into a war on Israeli soil. "Israel is on the brink and facing the abyss," [...]

[...] Israel's treatment of Muslims and their holy sites was sparking increased low-level attacks which were being co-ordinated between the militant groups and other Iranian proxies to an unprecedented extent.

[...] In April, rockets were launched from Lebanon in response to the brutal invasion of Jerusalem's Al Aqsa Mosque. Israeli security forces stormed into the mosque—which is considered the third most holy site in Islam—and beat worshippers.

Hamas called Saturday's assault on Israel "Operation Al Aqsa Storm." [As in US 'Operation Desert Storm']

Now Missiles From Lebanon Threaten to Blow Up Wider Israel War (thedailybeast.com)

Quote

While Hezbollah's huge arsenal of rockets and missiles has been its primary threat towards Israel, cross border ground attacks are also a card in its hand. The slick promotional content depicts Radwan fighters attacking a mock Israeli border position. Seizing territory in northern Israel is one of the unit's strategic objectives.

In the depicted assault, Hezbollah fighters are shown wielding mortars, anti-tank missiles, kamikaze drones, sniper rifles, and heavy machine guns. As well as more specialized equipment, such as what appears to be a minefield breaching charge, launched by a rocket propelled grenade.

[...]

Israeli military intelligence assesses that during wartime, Radwan units would be tasked with cross border raids, aimed at attacking civilian communities and seizing hostages. The 2006 Lebanon War was sparked when two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by operatives from an earlier iteration of the Radwan Force.

Analysis: Could The Radwan Unit Of Hezbollah Successfully Invade Israel? - I24NEWS

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Yesterday:

Quote

Since the spring, Hezbollah and Hamas leaders have made public statements about the "unification of fronts," in which Iranian-backed adversaries in Gaza, southern Lebanon, and the Golan Heights would menace Israel from all sides. Hamas leaders have met several times this year with Hezbollah[...] But the unification of fronts may not mean a multifront assault.

[...] for now, Hezbollah seems unlikely to get further involved. It has too much to lose. The group knows that Israel's retaliation against Lebanon would be even more devastating than the war of 2006. Since 2019, Lebanon has been crushed by a ruinous economic and political crisis, and Hezbollah's base of supporters cannot afford greater hardship.

A Message From Iran (msn.com)

I was very skeptical about this argument---with funding from Iran and other external sources, how much does Hezbollah actually care about the well-being of the Lebanese people? The more destitute, less educated, and angrier they are---particularly if that anger is redirected at Israel---the more powerful Hezbollah becomes?

And even if Netanyahu eventually gets forced out because of his failure to stop the attack, the vicious cycle of militant right-wing hard-liners reinforcing each others' popularity is seems likely to continue---his replacement would probably not be more pro-Palestinian.

Quote

US will likely 'go to war' in Israel with air and naval power if Syria or Iran become actively involved, retired 4-star general says

"The US announced on Sunday that it is sending an aircraft carrier strike group, including F-35s and F-16s, to patrol the Eastern Mediterranean and deter all-out war involving Israel's neighbors.

"They're there for more than a show of force or a potential noncombatant evacuation,[...]

[...] if the existence of the State of Israel is at stake, if the Syrian military intervene, if Hezbollah started overwhelming the Israelis, in my judgment, at that point, we would consider actively intervening with air power and naval power," [...]

"I think the deterrence factor is what the Biden administration is after right now. They want to make sure that the Syrian military and Hezbollah don't enter this fray, [...] If they do, it's going to be a lethal threat to the existence of Israel."

US Likely to Wage War in Israel If Syria, Iran Get Involved: Ret. Gen. (businessinsider.com)

And now today Hezbollah has apparently opened the northern front with a ground incursion:

Quote

Israel deployed soldiers to deal with a suspected infiltration from Lebanon on Monday morning, hours after announcing it had retaken control of all towns along the southern Gaza border.

Israel Scrambles Troops to Report of New Incursion From Lebanon (thedailybeast.com)

Despite their call for 'restraint', Russia might well be helping to fund the attacks in order to divert US/EU military assistance to Israel. If China really plans to invade Taiwan relatively soon---which I think very unlikely---they could be providing funding as well.

If Trump returns to power then after solidifying his authoritarian regime he could probably be persuaded to allow China to invade Taiwan without substantial military resistance or reprisal. They're both authoritarian allies of Putin, China would happily pay Trump off, and Trump could semi-legitimately claim that he 'kept us out of World War III'.

Trump might then invade Mexico though---or at least bomb it. The EU etc. would be hard pressed to fund the Mexican defense (not sure they would even without other conflicts going on), Ukraine, Taiwan, and Israel simultaneously, or try to impose sanctions against the United States and China at the same time....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 09 October 2023 - 02:19 PM

[Cause]

Trump coming to power is dangerous. He will begin what in South Africa is called cadre deployment. You begin to place a party loyalist into every post of power you can. He will destroy the American government. The danger of him invading Mexico or letting China have Taiwan I think won’t materialize, he won’t be able to dismantle the checks and balances that fast. They did groan under his first presidency and he is signaling he will move faster and with even less constraint the second time round. How much will he accomplish in 4 years is hard to say, will he be able to stay longer? Or will the person who comes after finish the jobs. To my mind he absolutely poses a clear and existential threat to America but an actual invasion of Mexico is low on my fears list. He can do much worse damage for less.

Another pointless war in Israel. Within 6 months nothing will have changed is my prediction except that the Gaza border will be under stricter control. I honestly believe if Hamas could go just 5 years without launching a rocket they could win the PR war but they seem incapable.

This post has been edited by Cause: 09 October 2023 - 04:04 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Cause, on 09 October 2023 - 04:00 PM, said:

Trump coming to power is dangerous. He will begin what in South Africa is called cadre deployment. You begin to place a party loyalist into every post of power you can. He will destroy the American government. The danger of him invading Mexico or letting China have Taiwan I think won't materialize, he won't be able to dismantle the checks and balances that fast. They did groan under his first presidency and he is signaling he will move faster and with even less constraint the second time round. How much will he accomplish in 4 years is hard to say, will he be able to stay longer? Or will the person who comes after finish the jobs. To my mind he absolutely poses a clear and existential threat to America but an actual invasion of Mexico is low on my fears list. He can do much worse damage for less.

Another pointless war in Israel. Within 6 months nothing will have changed is my prediction except that the Gaza border will be under stricter control. I honestly believe if Hamas could go just 5 years without launching a rocket they could win the PR war but they seem incapable.

Quote

Trump Wanted to Fire Missiles at Mexico. Now the G.O.P. Wants to Send Troops.

[...] nearly every Republican candidate has been advocating versions of a plan to send U.S. Special Operations troops into Mexican territory to kill or capture drug cartel members and destroy their labs and distribution centers. [...] Republican lawmakers have drafted a broad authorization for the use of military force against cartels — echoing the war powers Congress gave [...] W. Bush before the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. [... Trump] has vowed to [...] deploy Special Operations troops and naval forces to, as he put it, declare war on the cartels.

How Trump's Idea to Use Military Force in Mexico Became Embraced by GOP - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

But would it be 'lucrative' enough for Trump to really do it? (Remember Trump looking out at the graves of soldiers and saying, 'I don't get it. What was in it for them?') One simple answer might be seizing control of the drug trade---to profit from it, perhaps doing so clandestinely while simultaneously blaming it on Mexico as an excuse for ongoing military action/occupation. If Trump continues taking notes from Hitler's playbook then getting (more of) his followers hooked on meth or other stimulants might also be a major positive for him politically. Or he might essentially enslave Mexicans and force them to take addictive stimulants. (Or perhaps it could be as mundane as invading Mexico to build Trump Tower: Cancun, Trump Tower: Mexico City, Trump Tower: etc.... Kidding---partly---he'll no doubt try to personally profit somehow, even if only through relatively 'normal' business.) Unlikely, hopefully, but far from out of the realm of possibility.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

Israeli violence against Palestinians has reached unprecedented levels in recent years. [...] 2022 was the deadliest year on record for Palestinians killed in the West Bank by Israeli troops. [...]

Israeli settlers [...] carrying out mass attacks that even Israeli officials have deemed "pogroms." The current Israeli government is the most far-right in the country's history and includes politicians such as National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, who was considered too dangerous to even enlist in the Israeli military. Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich—who was handed the reins of the Defense Ministry's civil administration, putting him in charge of large parts of the West Bank—called for wiping out Palestinian villages.

Talk of "another Nakba" is on the rise in Israel. The Nakba was the mass ethnic cleansing of historic Palestine in 1948[...]

Now Israeli politicians are calling to ethnically cleanse Palestinians again. [...] "Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of '48." It is a mistake to think that this sentiment is a product of Hamas' most recent attack. In fact, it is one that has been held by a growing number of Israelis for a long time. A 2016 poll [...] found that nearly half of Jewish Israelis wanted to expel or transfer Arabs from Israel. The Israeli public has only moved further to the right in the years since.

[...] article earlier this year [...] "Is Israel on the Precipice of Genocide?" [...] "research on genocide over the past several decades has provided insight into the preconditions, which provide a reasonable starting point. … [...] Israel ticks all the boxes."

Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant [...] cutting off any entry of fuel, food, and people into the territory. Gallant said Israel was fighting a war against "beasts." The collective punishment of the entire population of Gaza and the dehumanizing language used by Israel's leading defense official foreshadow the absolute worst.

[...] the U.S. State Department's special envoy to monitor and combat antisemitism—a genocide scholar, no less—tweeted [...] "No one has the right to tell Israel how to defend itself and prevent and deter future attacks." The White House has made clear its unwavering support for Israel [...] This will be read in Israel as a license to commit greater atrocities than ever before.

Israel's siege of Gaza is doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. (slate.com)

Quote

The U.S. and our international allies must use all the means at our disposal to ensure that the response of the Israelis to the crimes of Hamas is proportional, consistent with international law, and, most difficult of all, that ultimately it breaks the cycle of violence that has caused so much carnage for so long.

[...] extremists seek extreme opposition. It is why, for example, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he would prefer having Hamas in charge among the Palestinians—because their radical policies "justify" his radical policies in response. It is why Hamas was also believed to prefer Netanyahu to his rivals.

They may kill the leaders of Hamas. But new leaders will emerge, new radicals will be born from the rubble of Gaza. [...]

The past eight decades have proven conclusively that there are no military solutions to the Israel-Palestine question.

It's Dangerous for the U.S. to Give Israel a Blank Check to Assault Gaza (thedailybeast.com)

... at least, no military solution short of near-complete genocide, or perhaps military occupation to institute a literal prison state with minimal personal freedom (cells, etc.)....

Quote

Biden has expressed unconditional support for Israel in his public statements, and there is no reason to think he has conveyed anything different to Netayahu in private. [...]

Zionism is one of Biden's primary commitments. It's not a belief that he acquired in the course of his political career, but something he says that he learned from his father at the dinner table, in the aftermath of the Holocaust. His father would tell him, "If Israel didn't exist, we'd have to invent it." [...]

[...] Despite Israel's recent slide away from democracy—and despite the rising criticism of the Jewish state within his own party—Biden remains a true believer, who doesn't haven't any qualms linking its struggle for existence to a global struggle against barbarism. [...]

[...] Biden's aides say that his spiritual commitment to Zionism means that he's going to be an exceedingly generous ally in those ugly moments

Biden Will Be Guided by His Zionism (msn.com)

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 10 October 2023 - 09:15 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

The Biden administration has now backtracked:

Quote

Biden [...] urged Netanyahu to "uphold the law of war." [...] "Hamas does not stand for the Palestinian people's rights to dignity and self-determination." [...] "they use Palestinian civilians as human shields" [...] "no regard to who pays the price."

[...] National Security Council spokesperson [...] said "we support Israel taking necessary and proportionate action to defend its country and protect its people." [...]

One problem is that Gaza is so dense, it's impossible to destroy military targets—for example, Hamas armories or hideouts—without also killing civilians.

[...] If Israel inflicts massive death and destruction on the Palestinians in Gaza, Hezbollah and the West Bank militants may feel compelled to intervene. A three-front war could be disastrous for Israel—and would be a humanitarian catastrophe for the region [...]

[...] this may be Hamas' intention. "Either we die slowly or we die taking the occupation with us," it quotes a Hamas official as saying

Biden's Israel speech shows he's walking a tightrope—and the stakes are high. (slate.com)

Quote

[...] the magnitude of what has happened is so great that it's really difficult to think about all of the potential long-term consequences. [...] This sets off a chain reaction for so many things. [...]

[...] There are parallels to the way many Americans felt after Sept. 11. But those emotions did not serve America well. [...]

Do you expect international rules of war to be followed or enforced?

No[...] Israel hasn't really shown that they are sympathetic to [...] International Human Rights [...] Israel is not alone in that. Many governments unfortunately behave that way.

[...] the United States has allowed Israel to act with impunity going back for decades. [...] It's totally contrary to the kind of things that American leaders say about democracy and human rights and international law. And the rest of the world notices that.

What Peter Beinart thinks about Israel and what comes next. (slate.com)

So: all malarkey?... Hopefully not. Maybe just 95%... that's better than 100 (before tax, anyway...).

OTOH:

Quote

More than 30 student groups at Harvard issued a joint statement [...] declaring that the Israeli government was "entirely responsible" for the crisis unfolding in the country and in Gaza.

"Israeli violence has structured every aspect of Palestinian existence for 75 years,[...] Palestinians have been forced to live in a state of death, both slow and sudden."

[...] the Harvard groups argued that Hamas bore no responsibility for the ongoing violence. [...] "For the last two decades, millions of Palestinians in Gaza have been forced to live in an open-air prison. Israeli officials promise to 'open the gates of hell,' and the massacres in Gaza have already commenced [...]"

Ex-Harvard President Lawrence Summers Demands School Denounce Letter Blaming Israel (thedailybeast.com)

Quote

Tlaib, a member of the so-called 'Squad' of progressive lawmakers, first issued a statement on the attacks that called Israel an "apartheid system that creates the suffocating, dehumanizing conditions that can lead to resistance." Tlaib also called for the U.S. to stop its funding for Israel

Furious Dem Slams 'Squad' Members for 'Repulsive' Statements on Israel Attacks (thedailybeast.com)

OTOTOH:

Quote

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY) condemned the Democratic Socialists of America[...] for promoting a pro-Palestine protest [...] saying, "[... we should be] rejecting both Hamas' horrifying attacks against innocent civilians as well as the grave injustices and violence Palestinians face under occupation."

AOC Slams Democratic Socialists of America for Post Supporting Pro-Palestine Rally (thedailybeast.com)

Claiming that Hamas bears no responsibility for the massacre of Israeli civilians---and that it's completely ethically justified as a form of 'resistance' (is the only ethical issue then that they haven't done it enough yet to 'win' via ethnic cleansing?)---does not seem like a winning political strategy---at least not in most parts of the United States. But perhaps it is on some college campuses---hopefully not among the future leaders of the nation (or other nations, for that matter)....

Instead of a police state adjacent to Israel, the Israeli far right could theoretically try to forcibly relocate the Palestinians someplace far away, and prevent them from returning. (Perhaps Cruella Braverman will point out that there's now an opening over in Rwanda?...) It would have to be somewhere willing to engage in that type of ethnic cleansing that also has enough land and enough security forces to deal with potential terrorism. Perhaps that could partly explain Netanyahu's friendliness towards Russia/refusal to support Ukraine---but relocation to somewhere in Russia is almost certainly not going to happen as long as the war in Ukraine continues.

[Abyss]

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 October 2023 - 12:32 PM, said:

... forcibly relocate the Palestinians someplace far away, and prevent them from returning....

That stupidity has been kicked around since the state of Israel was formed in the 70s and someone noticed most of the Palestinian pop had Jordanian roots and could 'easily' go there. Didn't happen, then won't happen now, the world would lose its collective shit if Israel were dumb enough to attempt it and no country Jordan or otherwise would ever agree to receive them if they did because curiously no one wants responsibility for a few millions of refugees well infiltrated with various terrorist elements.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Abyss, on 11 October 2023 - 02:17 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 October 2023 - 12:32 PM, said:

... forcibly relocate the Palestinians someplace far away, and prevent them from returning....

That stupidity has been kicked around since the state of Israel was formed in the 70s and someone noticed most of the Palestinian pop had Jordanian roots and could 'easily' go there. Didn't happen, then won't happen now, the world would lose its collective shit if Israel were dumb enough to attempt it and no country Jordan or otherwise would ever agree to receive them if they did because curiously no one wants responsibility for a few millions of refugees well infiltrated with various terrorist elements.

Wonder if North Korea has offered to take them... in exchange for a lot of money, and help building nukes (the latter at least would almost certainly provoke the US to intervene somehow---at least provided the president isn't Trump, or someone worse...).

[Gorefest]

Your solution to the Israel-Palestina problem is ethnic cleansing and racial segregation? Please don't ever take a job in any foreign policy office.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Gorefest, on 11 October 2023 - 04:33 PM, said:

Your solution to the Israel-Palestina problem is ethnic cleansing and racial segregation? Please don't ever take a job in any foreign policy office.

No, I'm not advocating that at all. I'm pointing out that that would probably be the only 'military solution'. But hopefully that won't happen. It would be a terrible irony if Israel, created largely because of attempted genocide, were to resort to genocide or (further) ethnic cleansing (since the initial expulsion in 1948 was an ethnic cleansing) or concentration camps (whether located in Israel, Russia, North Korea, China... all very unlikely, I hope).

[Abyss]

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 October 2023 - 02:57 PM, said:

Abyss, on 11 October 2023 - 02:17 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 October 2023 - 12:32 PM, said:

... forcibly relocate the Palestinians someplace far away, and prevent them from returning....

That stupidity has been kicked around since the state of Israel was formed in the 70s and someone noticed most of the Palestinian pop had Jordanian roots and could easily go there. Didn't happen, then won't happen now, the world would lose its collective shit if Israel were dumb enough to attempt it and no country Jordan or otherwise would ever agree to receive them if they did because curiously no one wants responsibility for a few millions of refugees well infiltrated with various terrorist elements.

Wonder if North Korea has offered to take them... in exchange for a lot of money, and help building nukes (the latter at least would almost certainly provoke the US to intervene somehow---at least provided the president isn't Trump, or someone worse...).

Let me put your curiosity to rest - no, North Korea has not offered to take 4.5 million Palestinians off of Israel's hands.
No, 4.5 million Palestinians are not interested in moving to North fucking Korea.
No, no country in the world on its dumbest worse most stupid day in its existence would suggest, support, or fund that move.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Abyss, on 11 October 2023 - 05:19 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 October 2023 - 02:57 PM, said:

Abyss, on 11 October 2023 - 02:17 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 October 2023 - 12:32 PM, said:

... forcibly relocate the Palestinians someplace far away, and prevent them from returning....

That stupidity has been kicked around since the state of Israel was formed in the 70s and someone noticed most of the Palestinian pop had Jordanian roots and could easily go there. Didn't happen, then won't happen now, the world would lose its collective shit if Israel were dumb enough to attempt it and no country Jordan or otherwise would ever agree to receive them if they did because curiously no one wants responsibility for a few millions of refugees well infiltrated with various terrorist elements.

Wonder if North Korea has offered to take them... in exchange for a lot of money, and help building nukes (the latter at least would almost certainly provoke the US to intervene somehow---at least provided the president isn't Trump, or someone worse...).

Let me put your curiosity to rest - no, North Korea has not offered to take 4.5 million Palestinians off of Israel's hands.
No, 4.5 million Palestinians are not interested in moving to North fucking Korea.
No, no country in the world on its dumbest worse most stupid day in its existence would suggest, support, or fund that move.

It is a terrible idea, though the Israeli government might decide the only alternatives are genocide or a draconian prison state/concentration camps. (As I quoted earlier,

Quote

Talk of "another Nakba" is on the rise in Israel. The Nakba was the mass ethnic cleansing of historic Palestine in 1948[...]

Now Israeli politicians are calling to ethnically cleanse Palestinians again. [...] "Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of '48." It is a mistake to think that this sentiment is a product of Hamas' most recent attack. In fact, it is one that has been held by a growing number of Israelis for a long time. A 2016 poll [...] found that nearly half of Jewish Israelis wanted to expel or transfer Arabs from Israel. The Israeli public has only moved further to the right in the years since.

Israel's siege of Gaza is doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. (slate.com)

... and if Nakba doesn't mean 'expulsion', it means... well, here is video of protestors in New York loudly calling for genocide:

https://twitter.com/...hIcg5qyzfMUzTIc

It's terrible.

While forced relocation is a bad idea and would be extremely difficult, it seems far from impossible (while still very unlikely). It would have to receive extensive Israeli funding, be in a remote country that doesn't care about US/EU/etc. sanctions, rely on forcible relocation after strip-searches, and heavily guarded borders or extreme boundaries (Trump would probably suggest a very large moat filled with alligators or some such). To be clear, I'm not advocating for it, though if it would be less draconian than constantly policed concentration camps in/adjacent to Israel, it might be ethically preferable to that or genocide.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 11 October 2023 - 06:32 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

Abyss, on 11 October 2023 - 05:19 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 October 2023 - 02:57 PM, said:

Abyss, on 11 October 2023 - 02:17 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 October 2023 - 12:32 PM, said:

... forcibly relocate the Palestinians someplace far away, and prevent them from returning....

That stupidity has been kicked around since the state of Israel was formed in the 70s and someone noticed most of the Palestinian pop had Jordanian roots and could easily go there. Didn't happen, then won't happen now, the world would lose its collective shit if Israel were dumb enough to attempt it and no country Jordan or otherwise would ever agree to receive them if they did because curiously no one wants responsibility for a few millions of refugees well infiltrated with various terrorist elements.

Wonder if North Korea has offered to take them... in exchange for a lot of money, and help building nukes (the latter at least would almost certainly provoke the US to intervene somehow---at least provided the president isn't Trump, or someone worse...).

Let me put your curiosity to rest - no, North Korea has not offered to take 4.5 million Palestinians off of Israel's hands.
No, 4.5 million Palestinians are not interested in moving to North fucking Korea.
No, no country in the world on its dumbest worse most stupid day in its existence would suggest, support, or fund that move.

I dunno it sounds like something Suella Braverman (the UK's Home Secretary) might suggest.

And no I'm not joking.

[amphibian]

The Israeli state has imposed what's functionally an open air prison on the Palestinians and violently repressed them for generations at this point.

The indiscriminate murder of civilians by Hamas and others is also horrible because it's not ethical even within the context delivered right to violent resistance of that oppression by the Israeli state.

It's all bad right now and bringing in North Korea etc doesn't help anything, even if it's the product of just whimsy riffing on things. Simmer down, y'all.