[Lady Bliss]

Gorefest, on 21 November 2023 - 04:11 PM, said:

I think in Western diplomacy circles there is a general sense that - regardless of how horrifyingly nasty and unpalatable this whole situation is - if Hamas is not pretty much wiped out completely in this push, this will just be an endlessly recurring issue. Which I assume is why they largely keep backing Netanyahu, despite the insane death toll and the targeting of civilians. On the flipside, even with Hamas out of the picture, this situation will never get resolved as long as Netanyahu and his ilk are in power on the Israeli side. It would need to be the Palestinian National Authority and an Israeli opposition party in favour of a true two-state solution (Yesh Atid?) to even nurture a glimmer of hope for improvement.

The other problem is that by targeting so many Muslims, Israel has stirred up the pot even worse in the Middle East. I’m sorry but if the US started bombing the heck out of a Latin American country, you know that other Latinos would be pissed at us and start calling the US racist (our politicians certainly are, but that’s beside the point).

[worry]

It's currently tentative, but they appear to be close to a 4 day ceasefire and hostage exchange agreement (with option of 5th day depending on how things go). Not quite approved yet, but here's hoping.

https://jewishinside...lease-children/

[Abyss]

Gorefest, on 21 November 2023 - 04:11 PM, said:

I think in Western diplomacy circles there is a general sense that - regardless of how horrifyingly nasty and unpalatable this whole situation is - if Hamas is not pretty much wiped out completely in this push, this will just be an endlessly recurring issue. Which I assume is why they largely keep backing Netanyahu, despite the insane death toll and the targeting of civilians. On the flipside, even with Hamas out of the picture, this situation will never get resolved as long as Netanyahu and his ilk are in power on the Israeli side. It would need to be the Palestinian National Authority and an Israeli opposition party in favour of a true two-state solution (Yesh Atid?) to even nurture a glimmer of hope for improvement.

I think it's a wrong-minded approach. Even if Hamas is wiped out down to the last would-be martyr and leader sitting off in Qatar giggling while watching cnn, another entity will evolve to fill the space, the way Hamas replaced the PLO and the PLO replaced the groups who existed before. The occupied territories situation just breeds them and the threat of death doesn't scare them much. Entire generations grow up with nothing to do but suffer, watch suffering, and hate Israel, and entire foreign funded organizations exist to point them in the most destructive direction. Israel needs a complete change in approach and opportunity - ie without another Oct 7 to set the hawks loose - for that to make a difference.

Lady Bliss, on 21 November 2023 - 04:38 PM, said:

The other problem is that by targeting so many Muslims, Israel has stirred up the pot even worse in the Middle East. ...

They don't care about the pot because as far as they are concerned, the pot was never not stirred up against them. It's easy to forget that Israel by a certain pov is basically a postage stamp on a football field of hostile states. Part of reason why the Israeli gov is so quick to go to war is that a huge chunk of its officials have always been at war as far as they are concerned. 'They are all around us, they hate us, they have always hated us, they will always hate us, no one is going to help us, and the best we can do is kill them before they kill us' is not an overstatement of the mindset (it's not universal but it's absolutely widespread). Hamas relied on this mindset. Israel knows Hamas relied on this mindset and they still went ahead and did exactly what Hamas wanted them to do.

worry, on 21 November 2023 - 05:05 PM, said:

It's currently tentative, but they appear to be close to a 4 day ceasefire and hostage exchange agreement (with option of 5th day depending on how things go). Not quite approved yet, but here's hoping.

https://jewishinside...lease-children/

we can hope.

[Lady Bliss]

Can someone explain why Susan Sarandon is being labeled as antisemitism?

https://www.cnn.com/...ents/index.html

[HoosierDaddy]

Lady Bliss, on 22 November 2023 - 12:54 PM, said:

Can someone explain why Susan Sarandon is being labeled as antisemitism?

https://www.cnn.com/...ents/index.html

Better question: Why should we care?

Anyways, it's because she showed that she understands empathy: that Muslims in the US regularly face the sort of discrimination and attitudes that Jews are getting a taste of right now with Israel's actions in Gaza, and perhaps just because your views are in the majority now, doesn't mean they will be in the majority later. You know, compassion goes a long way, but fuck compassion: Holocaust. Game over. Jews are in the right and anything that doesn't support them is antisemitic.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 22 November 2023 - 01:32 PM

[Abyss]

HoosierDaddy, on 22 November 2023 - 01:31 PM, said:

Lady Bliss, on 22 November 2023 - 12:54 PM, said:

Can someone explain why Susan Sarandon is being labeled as antisemitism?

https://www.cnn.com/...ents/index.html

Better question: Why should we care?

Anyways, it's because she showed that she understands empathy: that Muslims in the US regularly face the sort of discrimination and attitudes that Jews are getting a taste of right now with Israel's actions in Gaza, and perhaps just because your views are in the majority now, doesn't mean they will be in the majority later. You know, compassion goes a long way, but fuck compassion: Holocaust. Game over. Jews are in the right and anything that doesn't support them is antisemitic.

It's more stupidity than antisemitism. The Muslim analogy is weak and the suggestion that the current backlash for Israel's actions is a 'first taste' of prejudice for American Jews writ large is ignorant. She's enough of a name, barely, that it draws clicks and is so vague that pro-Israel readers will enjoy it as much as the 'Jews own Hollywood' conspiracy fans.

[Gorefest]

Ouch, big jolt to the extreme right in the Dutch elections. The far right PVV party is suddenly the biggest party by some margin. The left-centrist/Green coalition combo PvdA/Green Left now the second biggest, former largest party VVD got significant losses. What a mess.

[Lady Bliss]

Gorefest, on 22 November 2023 - 08:30 PM, said:

Ouch, big jolt to the extreme right in the Dutch elections. The far right PVV party is suddenly the biggest party by some margin. The left-centrist/Green coalition combo PvdA/Green Left now the second biggest, former largest party VVD got significant losses. What a mess.

Why is the world switching to ultra conservative? What is compelling people to do this? Is it just hate?

[Tiste Simeon]

Populist/nationalist nonsense, misinformation and lies, having convenient minority scapegoats to blame your woes on... It's a fun melting pot!

[Cause]

Lady Bliss, on 22 November 2023 - 08:32 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 22 November 2023 - 08:30 PM, said:

Ouch, big jolt to the extreme right in the Dutch elections. The far right PVV party is suddenly the biggest party by some margin. The left-centrist/Green coalition combo PvdA/Green Left now the second biggest, former largest party VVD got significant losses. What a mess.

Why is the world switching to ultra conservative? What is compelling people to do this? Is it just hate?

Its partly I believe a huge backlash against African and arab/muslim immigration into Europe. This seems to be the case in France and Greece as I understand it especially. The golden dawn party in Greece basically advertsises itself as the Nazis of greece. Their flag is psuedo swastika on a red background. The National Front rebranded as the National Rally party to gain wider appeal and its founder Marie Le penns father denied the holocausts ever happened. His daughter I believe has changed this stance maybe for no other reason that its still too toxic but the party wants immigration halted and refugees deported. A significant aspect of Brexit was so the UK could ignore EU mandates in regards to refugees.

America has substituted Africans and Muslim immigration for Mexican and Muslim immigration in their efforts on this front. Same diet, different food.

Its grievance policy, your life is bad becuase of them. The economy is bad because of them. Covid, Recessions, the war in syria etc have made the problems seem larger. If these power mad nutjobs (political grifters?) didnt have muslims they still have Africans and Mexicans and if they were absent they could go back to the Jews or try going back to the red scare in the USA at least and swap out Russia with China. So in that sense I think the cycle is just repeating again. For some people its a holy mission against the other, for some its just a means to an end.

The backlash against immigrants which I think is perhaps a legitimate concern to a degree amongst many can easilly find itself running a parallels course to the virulently hateful nationalists and white power people who are always there to some agree. The fringes views amplify by being able to pull in the moderates who might just feel a mild concern over the impact of immigration on countries budgets or identity but with time they can be radicalized or at least go along with the worse aspects of their crowd.

Not really sure about whats going on in the Phillipines, Brazil or Argentina, I think here they replace immigrants with criminals and the poor. I am I must admit too ignorant of the regions politics to say and perhaps shouldnt even have ventured the guess I did.

[the broken]

There is a lot swinging the other way too. Bolsanero is out of power, Trump is out of power, the Tories are in chaos, PIS also recently lost power. "The Rise of the Far Right" sells a lot of papers, but there's been a lot of recent losses too. Unfortunately it's not as snappy a headline, so gets less focus. Leading up the Spanish elections, there was a lot of talk about how we'd get another right leaning government. Turns out, no.

[Maark Abbott]

the broken, on 23 November 2023 - 01:03 AM, said:

There is a lot swinging the other way too. Bolsanero is out of power, Trump is out of power, the Tories are in chaos, PIS also recently lost power. "The Rise of the Far Right" sells a lot of papers, but there's been a lot of recent losses too. Unfortunately it's not as snappy a headline, so gets less focus. Leading up the Spanish elections, there was a lot of talk about how we'd get another right leaning government. Turns out, no.

You say that there's a lot swinging the other way, but I don't really buy that. American politics is ALL right wing, the Tories are in chaos but would probably still win another election as there is no opposition, and overall the world is lurching far further to the right and insular nationalism than it is otherwise.

The notions from government and sanctioned outlets is still primarily that domestic problems are all the fault of immigrants coming to take jobs from the workers, rather than the failings of government or those with power outside of that. Keeping workers angry at other workers stops them from getting angrier at those in charge after all.

[Garak]

There's another angle regarding immigrants, Muslims specifically. That many of them don't want to integrate but want to do the opposite, turn whatever country they are in into the same one they left. And that any place that houses them sees an increase in crime, rape especially.

[Lady Bliss]

Garak, on 23 November 2023 - 12:01 PM, said:

There's another angle regarding immigrants, Muslims specifically. That many of them don't want to integrate but want to do the opposite, turn whatever country they are in into the same one they left. And that any place that houses them sees an increase in crime, rape especially.

You mean that is the propaganda about Muslims right?

[Garak]

Yeah, instead of pushing the 'they gonna take your job' angle it's the threat of violence. That parts of Paris and Berlin are unrecognisable due to these migrants and so on and so forth. Still fear mongering at its base.

[Lady Bliss]

The release of hostages is delayed, so the IDF bombshell the heck out of Gaza. I’m afraid those hostages may not be released now.

[Lady Bliss]

This makes me sick.

https://www.cnn.com/...sday/index.html

A car explodes after crashing and the people inside die. The first thing officials go to is terrorism? That should maybe be a POSSIBLE cause but we can’t be expecting to find terrorists under every rock. Scaring people into thinking they might be the targets of terrorism just increases isolationist fear. Of course, that’s probably what they want.

[Abyss]

Lady Bliss, on 23 November 2023 - 02:09 PM, said:

The release of hostages is delayed, so the IDF bombshell the heck out of Gaza. I'm afraid those hostages may not be released now.

Bliss, I see IDF bombing the Hezbollah rocket sites in Lebanon but not Gaza, what are you referring to?

[Lady Bliss]

https://www.cnn.com/...3-23/index.html

[Abyss]

Lady Bliss, on 23 November 2023 - 03:29 PM, said:

https://www.cnn.com/...3-23/index.html

ty!