[Jade Raven]

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Alternate link (full size): http://malazan.wikia...ens_diagram.png
XML file (edit this to make your own version):  Warrens.xml (5.27K)
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Website to use XML file with: https://www.draw.io/
 Warrens 10-75.png (96.86K)
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Old versions:

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The Key is indicative only. Similar Holds and Elder Warrens are conflated to save space. Minor Warrens not depicted Some have now been added. Colours are only there to make it look less boring. Looking for a rigid system in Erikson's writings is inherently futile, etc, etc. Taking that into account what did I get wrong with this schematic? I'm particularly interested in what to do with the five Holds and Elders I've got hanging off to the left hand side.

This post has been edited by Jade Raven: 15 December 2016 - 02:04 AM

[Abyss]

Impressive effort, repd accordingly.
Couple of thoughts...

I think that Mokra can be linked to Rashan as well as Meanas and Thyr and the link between all four and the elder warrens can be upgraded to confident.

SD should be over by KG.... they were described by Krul in MoI as the two chambers of a beating heart.

GotM mentions the Thelomen warren... probably not the same thing as the Thel Akai warren. If you're going for racial warrens then the Barghast had their own as well.

There is debate about this, but I think the Empty Hold should be over by Shadow.

There is also the spirit based magic the Rhivi, Wickans and others use.

[worry]

Unless I'm mistaken, it's also missing the Imperial Warren.

[Abyss]

death rattle, on 03 December 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

Unless I'm mistaken, it's also missing the Imperial Warren.

That's not a source of power tho.
If the graph had the factor in 'physical' warrens it would need the Nascent, Dragnipur, the various memory warrens, Tremolor, the Whirlwind....

[worry]

That's true, but the same can be said of Aral Gamelain. And IW was a special creation by K'rul rather than a modification of a fragment of Shadow or whatever. But if it still doesn't rank, I can see why.

[Jade Raven]

Thanks for the feedback, image has been updated.

When I say minor warren I use the term fairly expansively. Imperial Warren, Kurald Liosan, the Nascent, Fener's Warren, etc, don't seem to me to be on the same level as these main ones. I don't know too much about Aral Gamelain, but I'm open to removing it if it is just a splinter of Hood's Path.

If I add in all the smaller warrens the schematic will become a bit unwieldy. I might do another one with just the Kurald family though and include the appropriate smaller ones in that.

The Barghast and Theloman don't seem too important, but I do really think Ahkrast and Kaschan should be there so I put them in as well as they are all racial warrens.

[Abyss]

I could be wrong, but i thought AG is the warren of summoning and binding demons, not the actual warrens they live in. Meaning it belongs on the chart, unlike the IW.
Also, I thought Tellan is 'Life', not Fire, and not as old as the Elder Warrens, but older than the human ones.

[Itwæs Nom]

Found a thread on this topic that could be useful

Might be just me but I think the human/elder/hold warren could be more distinctive, maybe different shapes or borders fro each of them? And the same with probable/speculative connections between warrens, maybe make one more obviously dashed and the other dotted

[Jade Raven]

Egwene, on 04 December 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

I assume you will be adding the graph to the Wiki Warren page when you have finished it, Jade Raven?!

It would be great if between the Warren experts here you guys could update the Wiki page in the process. There is nothing at all for example on the 'physical Warrens' mentioned here.

Abyss, on 03 December 2016 - 07:32 PM, said:

I could be wrong, but i thought AG is the warren of summoning and binding demons, not the actual warrens they live in. Meaning it belongs on the chart, unlike the IW.
Also, I thought Tellan is 'Life', not Fire, and not as old as the Elder Warrens, but older than the human ones.

Quote

Kurald Thyrllan had been born of violence, the shattering of Darkness. The Elder Warren had since branched off in many directions, reaching to within the grasp of mortal humans as Thyr. And, before that, in the guise of life-giving fire, Tellann. -L'oric [House of Chains]

From the wiki: Beak observed that Stormy and Gesler were "reforged in the fires of Tellann". He then went on to say:" Telas, Kurald Liosan, the fires, the ones dragons fly through to gain immunities and other proofs against magic and worse". [Reaper's Gale]

I think the Imass used the Beast Hold, which seems a lot like life to me and then through the influence of Thyrllan developed Tellann which was fire aspected, although it also carries connotations of a dust aspect since the Ritual.

This post has been edited by Jade Raven: 04 December 2016 - 10:14 PM

[Jade Raven]

Itwæs Nom, on 03 December 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

Found a thread on this topic that could be useful

Might be just me but I think the human/elder/hold warren could be more distinctive, maybe different shapes or borders fro each of them? And the same with probable/speculative connections between warrens, maybe make one more obviously dashed and the other dotted

Think not that I know naught of the powers of search for that thread was my primary reference.

This is a working draft, I can beautify it a bit once I'm happy that it is mostly done. I'll definitely release the full resolution and XML file then too, so others can try their hand.

Edit: Version 3 is done.

This post has been edited by Jade Raven: 04 December 2016 - 01:28 AM

[Egwene]

I assume you will be adding the graph to the Wiki Warren page when you have finished it, Jade Raven?!

It would be great if between the Warren experts here you guys could update the Wiki page in the process. There is nothing at all for example on the 'physical Warrens' mentioned here.

[Itwæs Nom]

Jade Raven, on 04 December 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

Abyss, on 03 December 2016 - 07:32 PM, said:

I could be wrong, but i thought AG is the warren of summoning and binding demons, not the actual warrens they live in. Meaning it belongs on the chart, unlike the IW.
Also, I thought Tellan is 'Life', not Fire, and not as old as the Elder Warrens, but older than the human ones.

Quote

Kurald Thyrllan had been born of violence, the shattering of Darkness. The Elder Warren had since branched off in many directions, reaching to within the grasp of mortal humans as Thyr. And, before that, in the guise of life-giving fire, Tellann. -L'oric [House of Chains]

From the wiki: Beak observed that Stormy and Gesler were "reforged in the fires of Tellann". He then went on to say:" Telas, Kurald Liosan, the fires, the ones dragons fly through to gain immunities and other proofs against magic and worse". [Reaper's Gale]

I think the Imass used the Beast Hold, which seems a lot like life to me and then through the influence of Thyrllan developed Tellann which was fire aspected, although it also carries connotations of a dust aspect since the Ritual.

Paran's thoughts on this during his visit of the Beast Hold just after becoming Master of the Deck: "A realm, then, abandoned. Lost to its makers. What then, is the Warren of Tellann that the T'lan Imass now use? Ah, that warren must have been born from the Ritual itself, a physical manifestation of their Vow of Immortality, perhaps. Aspected, not of life, nor even death. Aspected . . . of dust."

Jade Raven, on 04 December 2016 - 12:55 AM, said:

Itwæs Nom, on 03 December 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

Found a thread on this topic that could be useful

Might be just me but I think the human/elder/hold warren could be more distinctive, maybe different shapes or borders fro each of them? And the same with probable/speculative connections between warrens, maybe make one more obviously dashed and the other dotted

Think not that I know naught of the powers of search for that thread was my primary reference.

Well I had recently kinda stumbled upon the thread accidentally and recalled it when I saw this thread so "found" wasn't the right usage of word on my part

[Itwæs Nom]

On topic of Kurald Galain being a hold, a snippet of the first conversation between pre-MotD Paran and Silverfox: "'I have thought long and hard on this, Paran. Anomander Rake is Knight of the House of Dark,' she said, 'yet where is the House itself? Before all else there was Dark, the Mother who birthed all. So it must be an ancient place, a Hold, or perhaps something that came before Holds themselves. A focus for the gate into Kurald Galain ... undiscovered, hidden, the First Wound, with a soul trapped in its maw, thus sealing it.' 'A soul,' Paran murmured, a chill clambering up his spine, 'or a legion of souls ...' The breath hissed from Silverfox. 'Before Houses there were Holds,' Paran continued with remorseless logic. 'Both fixed, both stationary. Settled. Before settlement ... there was wandering. House from Hold, Hold from ... a gate in motion, ceaseless motion ...' He squeezed shut his eyes. 'A wagon, burdened beneath the countless souls sealing the gate into Dark. . .' And I sent two Hounds through that wound, I saw the seal punctured . . . by the Abyss..."

In TtH though the gate was moved to the temple in Coral right? And as such making it either a hold or (elder if the definition of elder warren is that it is not accessible to humans) warren? If so I personally have no idea which.

And maybe you've already taken all that into account and found out it has become a hold

[Jade Raven]

Egwene, on 04 December 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

I assume you will be adding the graph to the Wiki Warren page when you have finished it, Jade Raven?!

It would be great if between the Warren experts here you guys could update the Wiki page in the process. There is nothing at all for example on the 'physical Warrens' mentioned here.

That page and the page on Races are two I have my eye on for sure. This is probably good enough to put on the wiki now, I'll do it soon.

Itwæs Nom, on 04 December 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

On topic of Kurald Galain being a hold, a snippet of the first conversation between pre-MotD Paran and Silverfox: "'I have thought long and hard on this, Paran. Anomander Rake is Knight of the House of Dark,' she said, 'yet where is the House itself? Before all else there was Dark, the Mother who birthed all. So it must be an ancient place, a Hold, or perhaps something that came before Holds themselves. A focus for the gate into Kurald Galain ... undiscovered, hidden, the First Wound, with a soul trapped in its maw, thus sealing it.' 'A soul,' Paran murmured, a chill clambering up his spine, 'or a legion of souls ...' The breath hissed from Silverfox. 'Before Houses there were Holds,' Paran continued with remorseless logic. 'Both fixed, both stationary. Settled. Before settlement ... there was wandering. House from Hold, Hold from ... a gate in motion, ceaseless motion ...' He squeezed shut his eyes. 'A wagon, burdened beneath the countless souls sealing the gate into Dark. . .' And I sent two Hounds through that wound, I saw the seal punctured . . . by the Abyss..."

In TtH though the gate was moved to the temple in Coral right? And as such making it either a hold or (elder if the definition of elder warren is that it is not accessible to humans) warren? If so I personally have no idea which.

And maybe you've already taken all that into account and found out it has become a hold

Does all magic derive from the Azathani? An interesting question to be sure. In the case of Darkness it seems Draconus commissioned Errastus et al to create the Gate of Darkness, which become the Terondai (sp?). The price was the high cost of the life the Jaghut Karrish. Note that the Terondai was stationary in the heart of Karkanas.

I think the forms go: Gate > Hold > Warren (Elder frequently bearing Younger offshoots). The interesting question to me is what role the Thrones play.

[Abyss]

Not quite how I see it.
Gates are access points... rips or portals between dimensions, warrens, etc.
Holds, and Houses, are personifications of powers, ways to impose order of chaotic or primal forces by belief and structure.
Warrens, Elder and 'new'' are spaces where those forces are concentrated.

The Letherii viewed the Elder Warrens and gods within the context of 'Holds', and the Tiles.
Malazan Empire era did the same things with Houses and the Deck.

Thrones are constructs used to control the powers found within a warren. That can take different forms, from primal stuff like ice to mastery over a local population of demons, or people who have a racial connection to the warren the way the First Throne supposedly granted power over the Imass.
The Beast Hold as referred to in Tile readings, is a manifestation of related powers, not a physical space. A space ends up being created within the Mhybe's dreams, that appears to contain the Hold, but think about that for a second... most of the powers in the Beast Hold as a Letherii concept end of in the House of War as a Malazan concept.



....all of which is to say, it's complicated.

[D'rek]

I think you should consider trying to arrange them the way Silencer outlined in the other thread with them divided into different horizontal stripes that denote the progression from Chaos to Ancient magic to Holds to Warrens (to Iccy Warrens?). Don't be afraid to repeat entries for entities that changed form or exist in multiple systems, e.g. [Kurald Galain (Gate)]--->[Kurald Galain (Hold)]

Also, don't forget Verdith'Anath!

[Itwæs Nom]

I think there's a difference between gates to warren and gates like the one inside Dragnipur. The former are just access points that are not relevant to structure of the magic realms while the latter represent the structure and heart of said magic realms.
Silverfox thinks Azaths each represents one warren or hold (Deadhouse - Hood's Path, Finnest(means something with ice in Imass) - Omtose Phellac, Tremorlor(means something with life in Trellish - House of Life) and together they're holding hearts(outside of Kruls body that allow access to them from...outside of Kruls body) of the warrens and holds - or kind of one big common heart of all of them that is distributed piece by piece between Azaths and together forming structured Deck of Dragons of those most active of those and creating coalition that allows for very effective protection of the realms.

The gates are not only gates but also hearts of the realms and without the protection like the one that Azaths provide they're vulnerable. The difference between former and latter gates from the first paragraph is that the former provide their uses with limited rights, limited according to their skill possibly. The latter ones (hearts) provide you with administrator rights although with some restrictions still.

Thrones then are representations of the admin rights in realms.

I haven't read anything of the Khahrkanas yet and I might be completely wrong but that's kinda how I see it

[Anzu]

Hey everybody,

Those diagrams very interesting and helpful for understanding the whole warrens/holds issue.

I liked it so much I did my own version, ancient-papyrus style and ink.

Idid in in Spanish and add another symbol for the memory warrens (top right) and also the Malazan empire icon and Duiker's signature (bottom left). The size is an A3. Probably there's a bunch of mistakes, but it's my first attempt.

If you like it I might do another old-style one, this time with a map or maybe D'rek's wonderful diagram of gods and ascendants, but I'm open to suggestions!

Attached File(s)

•  P1011478fs.jpg (1.11MB)
  Number of downloads: 2

[Tsundoku]

'El Abismo' ... I sense a user name change.

@Anzu
Really nice by the way.

[Anzu]

Thanks a lot my friend!

I'm already thinking on the next project.

This post has been edited by Anzu: 14 March 2019 - 06:09 PM