[Blueiron]

Does D'rek (or anyone else) have a Warrens Tree in the same vein as the Racial Tree and Draconian Family Tree? If not, I volunteer to start one. I really have a hard time fitting all the "this came from that, which is aspected to the other, and accessible to thingummies."
It would start with the really primal ones like the planet of Malazan world (some people call it Wu?) and possibly some Demon realms like Aral Gamelon. Then There'd be the first of K'rul's bunch, like Starvald Demelain, Kurald Galain (which is a headache unto itself), followed by the permutations that lead to the human Paths etc. Finally, in a seperate group is Icarium's brand shiny new ones.

Discuss/correct at will!


P.S. Pointers would especially be appreciated from D'rek, who is really good at this sort thing.

[ShadowRaven]

I won't go into the Holds as it is pretty unclear how that whole thing goes other than for the T'lan Imass, but below is how I see it from most basic to evolved for the ones I recall. Note that light does not originate from K'rul, but is somehow connected to the system none the less. SD and KG could also have existed before K'rul created a body for himself containing them.

Beast Hold or Kurald Thyrllan (can't remember which) -> Tellann
Kurald Thyrllan (is Kurald Liosan the same thing but just called different?) -> Thyr
KT + Tellann -> Telas
KG -> Rashan
KT + KG -> Kurald Emurlahn -> Meanas
Denaeth Rusen -> Ruse (they could also be the same thing)
KT + KG + KE -> (possibly Rashan + Thyr + Meanas) -> Mockra

Burn/Wu -> Tennes, D'riss, spirit magic such as used by the Wickan warlocks in DG, Eres'al's magic
K'rul -> Imperial Warren


Unclear ones:

Serc (from K'rul certainly, but not sure from which Elder, maybe SD?)
Ahkrast Korvalain, Kaschan, Omtose Phellack (probably originals)
Aral Gamelon (related to Hood's Path but doesn't probably originate from it)
Denul (considering Caladan Brood can use it very well it could come from Burn, or from Denaeth Rusen because all life on Wu originates from DR)
Warrens or power of individual gods not fitting other mentioned warrens such as Fener and Poliel

Chaos could also be added there before KG and SD, but I'm not entirely sure about that because it is not stated clearly whether they were separate powers or if they evolved from it.

[ShadowRaven]

Note: the image posted as attachment contradicts some of the stuff in the previous post and not all of it might be accurate, it is how I personally perceive it at least. I would be inclined to say that Denul comes from DR based on the the fact that it is the source of all life, plus the fact that the names appear quite similar. The other section is for stuff I honestly can't give an origin for.

And I just realized I forgot Serc from there

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[Silencer]

It's fairly simple, in overview.

Chaos -> Wandering (basically, unformed concepts, such as Dark, Light...the Gates thereof. This is before the realms became related and so were isolated) -> Holds (The first 'settlements' of magic, when concepts became defined in relation to each other. The Beast Hold, the Hold of Darkness, so on and so forth) -> Warrens.

Almost all Warrens are derived from Holds, and it was through K'rul taking the Holds 'into himself' so to speak, to form the paths (a more defined relationship than before) that they evolved. Anything he didn't take got 'left behind' as its own Hold. While, for the most part, Holds which became Warrens ceased to exist as the former concept, it's not entirely true/consistent, hence the overlap.

Starvald Demelain is only known as the 'First Warren' because it was the foundation for that system, along with Darkness. It (likely) didn't predate other Holds in any noticeable fashion (i.e. it didn't predate Omtose Phellack, Darkness, Thyrllan, etc).



Anyway, it's been a while since I've delved into this stuff, but that's probably the easiest way to think of it. The individually defined Warrens/Holds etc are just aspects of a 'timeline' of progression, all arising out of Chaos and advancing as different concepts.

[Ozymandiac]

Perhaps it would be better to divide your graph into three (four?) parts, showing Chaos ( - Wandering?) - Holds - Warrens. See my pic for an example. (And yes, I know it's ugly)

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[ShadowRaven]

It is a good idea, but there are some problems with it as there are mentions of holds in DG and MoI and then when we get to Lether there are different ones again, and we can't be sure which of the Lether ones existed before the evolution of warrens. In DG, it is established that there are holds of Death, Life, Dark, Light, and Beast. Then in Letherii tiles of the holds: Azath, Beast, Dragon, Ice, Empty, and Fulcra

Also, the Elder warrens are often referred to as warrens right from the start, although their power seems more like that of holds. So The Hold of Dark and Elder Warren of Dark would both be Kurald Galain, etc. Furthermore, we don't know if all of the holds we have been shown were actual predecessors of warrens as they could just be the equivalents of Houses of the Deck of Dragons, e.g. House of Life is not a warren.

[Silencer]

As I said, there is considerable overlap, and while in theory the Holds were either forgotten (see the Cedance, and also the basement of the Azath where the Deck manifestation is....hundreds of extra Warrens and Holds) or became their related Warren, it is not the case in Lether, and as long as someone believes in the power of the Holds, they continue to exist as separate entities, much like Gods and worshippers.

So while the progression is clear, they are by no means fixed, and two 'levels' can exist side-by-side. The Elder Warrens are referred to as such because they were the 'founding' Warrens, the first ones to advance, and they are the thus the oldest. However, because of this, they are also closer to Holds in their manifestations, being less refined and closer to the Chaos of the Holds.

The House of Life is not itself a Warren, but T'riss has her own Warren, Denul is the Path of Healing, etc, etc. So there is, again, considerable diversity of which we quite simply aren't aware. Couple in that the Letherii were only a splinter faction, and have 'fallen' a lot in comparison to the First Empire, and not only are the names the use for Holds different, they have stopped using many of the Holds as those ones lose their power. The Hold of Dragons, for example, is Starvald Demelain's predecessor of sorts, even though they are one-and-the-same (because the Dragons gave themselves over to the ritual K'rul used to fashion the Warrens).

Fyi, this is exactly why no-one has made one of these yet - there are too many permutations and considerations. Between extinct Warrens and Holds, overlaps, confusion between the Tiles, Holds, Deck and Warrens, and the almost entirely untapped area that is Wandering (by Paran's speculation, and partially supported by recent events) and Icarium's creation....it's complex.

The easiest thing, as I see it, is to assume that anything no longer seen is ignored, anything referred to as a Warren (Elder or otherwise) is considered as such, and you remove it from the Holds section (because they supplanted themselves in the system) and it's derivatives are just listed below it (e.g. Kurald Galain and Rashan/Meanas), indicating that one is born of the other.

So

Chaos
-----------------
Wandering
-----------------
Holds
-----------------
Elder Warrens

Warrens derived from Elders

Now, anything that also has a referenced Hold is placed in the Hold section above its likely derivatives/successors. I.e. Dragon Hold goes above Starvald Demelain. They may be the same thing in practice, but conceptually they are different.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think you should have a line connecting hood's path and denul on that little prelim chart. Denul is supposed to have more in common with hood's path than anything else. DoD spoiler:

Spoiler

like Deadsmell tells Ebron, denul's giving, hood's taking away. they're just two sides of the same coin.

[Blueiron]

First of all, Thank so much guys! this is a really good start!

now then...

 ShadowRaven, on 28 November 2010 - 05:06 AM, said:

... Note that light does not originate from K'rul, but is somehow connected to the system none the less. SD and KG could also have existed before K'rul created a body for himself containing them....

IIRC, K'rul made some sort of pact with the dragons, and we don't know what it is yet (hoping for some info in TCG) K'rul didn't just make the Human-accessible warrens, he had something to do with the elder stuff to do. I'm pretty sure he mention to Lady Envy about this, about how she swam in his blood, and I'm pretty sure she can use Elder magic. I kinda like Silencer's way of thinking about it though. K'rul just reorganized the pre-existing warrens, but its still not entirely satisfactory

More specific notes:

Didn't Father Light make Kurald Liosan a distinct place from Kurald Thyrllan? Or am I talking out of my arse?
You missed the Imperial warrenB)
Where did the Refugium come from? Is it just the Beast Hold somehow?
Also, the greatest task, yet to come: tracking down all the fragments of K.Emurlahn:coffee: (I'm really having fun with these smileys. didn't even realize half of them were there)
~Whirlwind
~Mappo's Sack
~Tremorlor
~"Shadow" ie ST's home base

Where in Hodd's name does Iccy's stuff fit in?
Finally, what exactly is the criteria for being "Elder?" Just being pre-Paths?

I'm working on paper right now, but when I feel more confident, I try to make sense of it in an image. We'll see, eh?

[ShadowRaven]

 Blueiron, on 29 November 2010 - 04:26 AM, said:

Where in Hodd's name does Iccy's stuff fit in?
Finally, what exactly is the criteria for being "Elder?" Just being pre-Paths?

I would consider Iccy's warrens as entirely separate. The way I see it is that they are born from him + the various humans the machine absorbed. They might have the same characteristics as some existing warrens but they aren't related to them in any "lineage" sense.

I would go with your definition of Elder, or if you want to simplify just use "incredibly old" (more than 100k years or so)


I'm pretty sure the true distinction between Kurald Liosan and Thyrllan has never been given. I just always assumed that others refer to it mostly as Thyrllan as that is its original name, but the Liosan themselves call it Kurald Liosan because they consider it their holy realm that nobody else has a right to access, and because they live there.

This post has been edited by ShadowRaven: 29 November 2010 - 04:54 AM

[Silencer]

 Blueiron, on 29 November 2010 - 04:26 AM, said:

First of all, Thank so much guys! this is a really good start!

now then...

 ShadowRaven, on 28 November 2010 - 05:06 AM, said:

... Note that light does not originate from K'rul, but is somehow connected to the system none the less. SD and KG could also have existed before K'rul created a body for himself containing them....

IIRC, K'rul made some sort of pact with the dragons, and we don't know what it is yet (hoping for some info in TCG) K'rul didn't just make the Human-accessible warrens, he had something to do with the elder stuff to do.

Pretty much, he used the dragons or their power to 'shape' the warrens, to separate them. Whether dragon's blood was aspected before this or not is unclear, but presumably he used it to identify the separate paths of sorcery.

I'm pretty sure he mention to Lady Envy about this, about how she swam in his blood, and I'm pretty sure she can use Elder magic. I kinda like Silencer's way of thinking about it though. K'rul just reorganized the pre-existing warrens, but its still not entirely satisfactory

More specific notes:

Didn't Father Light make Kurald Liosan a distinct place from Kurald Thyrllan? Or am I talking out of my arse?
You missed the Imperial warrenB)
Where did the Refugium come from? Is it just the Beast Hold somehow?

This relates in part to your question on Mappo's sack, I believe. Liosan/Thyrllan are semi-distinct warrens, possibly made so merely by the ability of some people to 'corner off' a section of Warren for themselves. In the same sense, Mappo's sack is likely to just be a literal pocket of some other warren to which only his bag has access.

Also, the greatest task, yet to come: tracking down all the fragments of K.Emurlahn:coffee: (I'm really having fun with these smileys. didn't even realize half of them were there)
~Whirlwind
~Mappo's Sack
~Tremorlor
~"Shadow" ie ST's home base

The trick here is recognising that almost all of them are just shards of the same Warren. In practical terms, therefore, they are identical and have the same properties (barring any changes made by those who take control of the fragment in question), so aside from listing them for the hell of it, they are so numerous they are like the 'dead' Holds/Warrens: we just don't know about 90% of them.

Where in Hodd's name does Iccy's stuff fit in?
Finally, what exactly is the criteria for being "Elder?" Just being pre-Paths?

I'm working on paper right now, but when I feel more confident, I try to make sense of it in an image. We'll see, eh?

And finally, I agree with ShadowRaven on the last two points.

Responses in red, in case you missed that. XD

[Blueiron]

Many thanks to Shadow Raven and Silencer, master thaumatologicians!

-Blueiron's dictionary: Thaumatologician: (n) 1 A person, always a mage, who studies magical (thaumatological) theory and practice. eg: Modern Thaumatologicians have discovered that travel via the Imperial Warren can lead to increased rates of respiratory diseases such as bronchitis, black-lung, lung cancer, and pulminary knife-wounds

[KingTeholBeddict]

I've always thought that Serc was "derived" from Kurald Liosan seeing as Father Light is the ruler of both...

[nacht]

Any guesses on what Dragon corresponds to each Warren and where they are currently located.

T'iam, Kalse, Silannah, Ampelas, Okaros, Karosis, Sorrit, Atrahal, Eloth, Anthras, Kessobahn, Alkend, Karatallid, Korbas... Olar.

Sorrit maybe tied to Serc
Silannah maybe tied to Emulahn (I think either in MT or Reaper's gale there is mention of how Rake came out of Emulahn with Silannah on his side)

[MTS]

 nacht, on 28 January 2011 - 01:35 AM, said:

Any guesses on what Dragon corresponds to each Warren and where they are currently located.

T'iam, Kalse, Silannah, Ampelas, Okaros, Karosis, Sorrit, Atrahal, Eloth, Anthras, Kessobahn, Alkend, Karatallid, Korbas... Olar.

Sorrit maybe tied to Serc
Silannah maybe tied to Emulahn (I think either in MT or Reaper's gale there is mention of how Rake came out of Emulahn with Silannah on his side)

We only know a few 'for sure', the others are a complete mystery, and that list is the only time they're mentioned.

Eloth - Meanas, Mockra and Thyr (chained in Shadow)
Ampelas - Emurlahn (chained in Shadow)
Silanah - Thyr (in Coral)
Sorrit - Serc (dead in a KCNR skykeep in 7C)
Kor(a)bas - Otataral (pocket warren that is apparently near to KL)

All the rest besides Kalse (also chained in Shadow) are either dead or somewhere else, presumably SD.

This post has been edited by MTS: 28 January 2011 - 02:08 AM

[Salt-Man Z]

In Deadhouse Gates, Hentos Ilm (T'lan Imass bonecaster) says to Kulp:

Hentos Ilm said:

"You are Meanas Rashan, which is the branch of Kurald Emurlahn accessible to mortal humans."

[D'rek]

 MTS, on 28 January 2011 - 02:07 AM, said:

 nacht, on 28 January 2011 - 01:35 AM, said:

Any guesses on what Dragon corresponds to each Warren and where they are currently located.

T'iam, Kalse, Silannah, Ampelas, Okaros, Karosis, Sorrit, Atrahal, Eloth, Anthras, Kessobahn, Alkend, Karatallid, Korbas... Olar.

Sorrit maybe tied to Serc
Silannah maybe tied to Emulahn (I think either in MT or Reaper's gale there is mention of how Rake came out of Emulahn with Silannah on his side)

We only know a few 'for sure', the others are a complete mystery, and that list is the only time they're mentioned.

Eloth - Meanas, Mockra and Thyr (chained in Shadow)
Ampelas - Emurlahn (chained in Shadow)
Silanah - Thyr (in Coral)
Sorrit - Serc (dead in a KCNR skykeep in 7C)
Kor(a)bas - Otataral (pocket warren that is apparently near to KL)

All the rest besides Kalse (also chained in Shadow) are either dead or somewhere else, presumably SD.

Note that since Kalse, Ampels and Eloth claim they aren't (attempted) usurpers to Shadow, it's a good bet that Kalse claims (at least) Rashan, as that way the 3 of them encompass the triumvirate of Meanas-Thyr-Rashan, the elder shadow Emurlahn, and also Mockra because why not.

 Salt-Man Z, on 28 January 2011 - 04:07 AM, said:

In Deadhouse Gates, Hentos Ilm (T'lan Imass bonecaster) says to Kulp:

Hentos Ilm said:

"You are Meanas Rashan, which is the branch of Kurald Emurlahn accessible to mortal humans."

SE once said that that was largely a case of humans not being great at semantics, or something. No idea what interview it was. Anyways, the two are clearly linked, so it makes sense to label them together sometimes, I guess...

[nacht]

Quote

Silanah - Thyr (in Coral)

MTS,

Where did you come across the Silanah - Thyr correlation.?
And wasn't Korabas in the Imperial Warren. I though that is where Pearl and Lostara bumped into it.

[MTS]

 D, on 28 January 2011 - 05:39 AM, said:

 MTS, on 28 January 2011 - 02:07 AM, said:

 nacht, on 28 January 2011 - 01:35 AM, said:

Any guesses on what Dragon corresponds to each Warren and where they are currently located.

T'iam, Kalse, Silannah, Ampelas, Okaros, Karosis, Sorrit, Atrahal, Eloth, Anthras, Kessobahn, Alkend, Karatallid, Korbas... Olar.

Sorrit maybe tied to Serc
Silannah maybe tied to Emulahn (I think either in MT or Reaper's gale there is mention of how Rake came out of Emulahn with Silannah on his side)

We only know a few 'for sure', the others are a complete mystery, and that list is the only time they're mentioned.

Eloth - Meanas, Mockra and Thyr (chained in Shadow)
Ampelas - Emurlahn (chained in Shadow)
Silanah - Thyr (in Coral)
Sorrit - Serc (dead in a KCNR skykeep in 7C)
Kor(a)bas - Otataral (pocket warren that is apparently near to KL)

All the rest besides Kalse (also chained in Shadow) are either dead or somewhere else, presumably SD.

Note that since Kalse, Ampels and Eloth claim they aren't (attempted) usurpers to Shadow, it's a good bet that Kalse claims (at least) Rashan, as that way the 3 of them encompass the triumvirate of Meanas-Thyr-Rashan, the elder shadow Emurlahn, and also Mockra because why not.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Can't really be Kurald Galain either. Dovetails with their attempt to heal Emurlahn. Her part in an alliance wouldn't make much sense if her aspect was D'riss, for instance. Eloth says she is the Mistress of Illusions, so I imagine the three warrens she helped shape represents that. Thyr for the shaping of light, Meanas (Shadow) for the illusion of depth, and Mockra for manipulation of the mind.

[MTS]

 nacht, on 28 January 2011 - 06:08 AM, said:

Quote

Silanah - Thyr (in Coral)

MTS,

Where did you come across the Silanah - Thyr correlation.?
And wasn't Korabas in the Imperial Warren. I though that is where Pearl and Lostara bumped into it.

They encountered a pocket warren while traversing the IW.

Quote

'It's not here…' Pearl whispered.
'What? It's right above—
'No. Well, yes. But… look carefully. It's enclosed in a sphere. A pocket warren, a realm unto itself—'
'Or the entranceway,' she suggested. 'Sealing—
'A gate. Queen of Dreams, I think you're right.'

Most of what we know about the Shapers of the Blood comes in one conversation - the one between Cotillion, Edgewalker and the three dragons Kalse, Eloth and Ampelas.

Quote

‘Spare me, please. I am not really interested in all that, to be honest. Apart from discovering if there was enmity between Eleint and Soletaken. It seems there is, with the possible exception of Silanah—’
‘Seduced by Anomandaris’s charms,’ snapped Eloth. ‘And Olar Ethil’s endless pleadings...’
‘To bring fire to the world of the Imass,’ Cotillion said. ‘For that is her aspect, is it not? Thyr?’
Ampelas observed, ‘He is not so uncomprehending as you believed, Kalse.'

By the way, this has to be one of my favourite exchanges in the whole series:

Quote

After all, better Eleint on the Throne of Shadow than another Tiste Edur, or worse, a usurper.’
‘And how would Eleint not be usurpers?’
‘Your pedantry does not impress us.’