[Gorefest]

One of the most brilliantly hilarious and simultaneously deeply depressing journalistic pieces I've read in a long time:

https://www.theguard...udget-liz-truss

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'"The U.K. is behaving a bit like an emerging market turning itself into a submerging market," Larry Summers says

"[...] Britain will be remembered for having pursued the worst macroeconomic policies of any major country in a long time.'"

— Larry Summers, former U.S. Treasury secretary

[...] "It would not surprise me if the pound eventually gets below a dollar, if the current policy path is maintained," [...]

"This is simply not a moment for the kind of naive, wishful-thinking, supply-side economics that is being pursued in Britain,"'

'The U.K. is behaving a bit like an emerging market turning itself into a submerging market,' Larry Summers says

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 23 September 2022 - 09:29 PM

[worry]

Of course, even that is whitewashing it. These are not naive true believers in supply side or trickle down economics. It’s a deliberate, calculated plundering of UK wealth by the vampire class. And the pain ain’t just a sad byproduct.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Renewed For 2 More Seasons, on 23 September 2022 - 09:40 PM, said:

Of course, even that is whitewashing it. These are not naive true believers in supply side or trickle down economics. It's a deliberate, calculated plundering of UK wealth by the vampire class. And the pain ain't just a sad byproduct.

'Naive' is certainly overly charitable---at best 'willfully ignorant and/or too stupid, lazy, or mentally compromised by ideology or simplistic motivated reasoning to understand the implications of the empirical data'. I'm inclined to think you're right, but is there any evidence that Truss is not a true believer in supply side/trickle down? Will she (or her benefactors) profit overall from the tax cuts in the mid to long term despite the British economy (and the ER of the pound, and UK stock markets) tanking?... How insulated are they?

[worry]

It depends where you draw the distinction.

The difference between rhetoric and reality in conservative ideology -- rhetoric = a policy will help the most people; reality = a policy will help the right people. As a broad generalization (and mind you, I'm not saying it's an overly broad generalization -- it's accurate, as far as generalizations go): Progressive ideas are supposed to do the former, and conservative ideas are supposed to do the latter -- fundamentally. The Big Lie in this regard -- one espoused along many points on the political spectrum from deep conservatism to even left of center moderates -- is that conservative ideas are also meant to do the former. See Obama's common refrain, paraphrased: Both sides want the same thing, we just disagree on how to get there. That's a lie -- conservative policy is not intended to help the most people, it is intended to help the right people, period. Which in theoretical 'moderate' conservative terms means for example opposition to the welfare apparatus, with an economic loser class that by and large 'deserves' what it gets through the meritocracy of a free and fair economic system, but in our real world where 'moderate' conservatives are few and far between, often means much much worse.

So when I say 'true believer' I'm talking about that particular lie -- which is a deliberate obfuscation of the purpose of policy, the intended outcomes, not just the unintended outcomes. There really aren't very many, and it's more than fair (like you say, charitable) to call any who do believe 'naive'.


Whereas in your distinction -- at least as far as I'm reading it, and it's a valid one, just not the one I was referring to -- there's the 'true believers' in that actual purpose, that the policy will genuinely help the right people, vs. those who truly do not care about even that as long as they themselves are enriched, empowered, etc. Now I think there are definitely more True Believers in that sense, and I get why you and I as Americans wouldn't have a complete handle on an absolute nobody like Liz Truss quite yet. Which is why we must learn from our fellow boarders in the UK. If I had to lay a wager down right now though, it would be on this being a smash-and-grab as opposed to earnest but misguided ideologues.

[Cyphon]

My hunch is it's a smash and grab with just enough minor reduction in people's tax that come the next election, the tories will try to position Labour as tax raisers and anti Real people.

Currently labour are saying they'll back the reduction in the base rate of tax but not the abolishment of the highest rate of tax which is sensible. What the tories are doing is a bigger bonfire than that though and Labour have issues cutting though in a media captured by either the people the tories favour or those in thrall of balance over reality.

And who knows what Labour would do in power and whether they have the vision, skill, and are given a mandate to do what's needed to be done to haul the country in the right direction. That will mean challenging the status quo/fiddling with the edges and vested interests - the pain of which will be inflated because of the reasons above.

[Mezla PigDog]

You can see from Liz Truss' background that she doesn't really believe anything unless her career stands to benefit from it. She's a feckless try hard who wants to be top of the class so badly, she repeatedly moved classes until she found the one she could look best in. Sadly this class is the one that wants a Margaret Thatcher wannabe in charge and doesn't care how it happens so long as their hoarding of wealth is maintained.

I'm a few hundred ££ a year better off under the latest budget but as various more wealthy than me lefties have been saying on Twitter. No point being personally wealthy if you are socially bankrupt.

I was reading opinion pieces on the Russian draft this morning questioning why Russians aren't revolting yet. Consensus was because the general populace has been indoctrinated into thinking they can't effect political change. The British electoral system has done the same here - we're all huffing and puffing into social media and waiting with fingers crossed for the next General Election.

[Macros]

I am amazed we aren't demanding a general election, nurses, teachers, everyone basically will be worse off under this new budget unless they earn 150k plus.
Fuck the tories

[stone monkey]

It's being reported that the BoE has had to step in with measures to stop a whole bunch of major pension funds from going bust. I think Truss & Kwarteng may have signed the Tories' electoral Death Warrant with that one, if it's true.

[Macros]

We can hope but people have goldfish memories.

[Tiste Simeon]

Plus a media that seems to refuse to hold anyone to account means a lot of it goes under reported.

[Maark Abbott]

stone monkey, on 28 September 2022 - 03:35 PM, said:

It's being reported that the BoE has had to step in with measures to stop a whole bunch of major pension funds from going bust. I think Truss & Kwarteng may have signed the Tories' electoral Death Warrant with that one, if it's true.

As long as they worship at the shrine of BWEKSUT, Tory voters probably won't care. If they start to care, Truss can fall on the ironclad defense of 'muh laybur' that Tory voters suck up like manna from heaven falling in Teletubby Land (they are the NooNoos).

Macros, on 28 September 2022 - 05:39 PM, said:

We can hope but people have goldfish memories.

This.

Tiste Simeon, on 29 September 2022 - 05:54 AM, said:

Plus a media that seems to refuse to hold anyone to account means a lot of it goes under reported.

A media that is financially invested in keeping the current order as it is more like. It's all purposeful.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I thought there was quite a bit to like in Starmer's conference speech - presuming they got into power and actually followed through on what he's pledging. Only one way to find that out - but I'm back at "it couldn't possibly be worse".

The points on the media and people having short memories are unfortunately depressingly true.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 29 September 2022 - 07:56 AM

[Tsundoku]

Does anyone else get a really strong Dolores Umbridge vibe from Liz Truss?

[Maark Abbott]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 29 September 2022 - 07:56 AM, said:

I thought there was quite a bit to like in Starmer's conference speech - presuming they got into power and actually followed through on what he's pledging. Only one way to find that out - but I'm back at "it couldn't possibly be worse".

The points on the media and people having short memories are unfortunately depressingly true.

Whilst my Royal Mail inside source tells me that Starmer does actually seem on their side, his prior broken pledges lead me to think there's no substance to whatever he says.

But like you say, could it realistically be worse?

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Maark Abbott, on 29 September 2022 - 11:51 AM, said:

But like you say, could it realistically be worse?

Given Truss even managed to break Martin Lewis this morning, one of the few remaining sensible heads, I'm going to go with "nope"

[QuickTidal]

Did....did I just hear that your new PM just gave a tax cut to the wealthy....?

What the fuck is wrong in the House of the UK?

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

QuickTidal, on 29 September 2022 - 01:10 PM, said:

Did....did I just hear that your new PM just gave a tax cut to the wealthy....?

What the fuck is wrong in the House of the UK?

Pretty sure I'd hit a character limit before I'd finished trying to explain. It is genuinely scary.

[Tiste Simeon]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 29 September 2022 - 01:13 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 29 September 2022 - 01:10 PM, said:

Did....did I just hear that your new PM just gave a tax cut to the wealthy....?

What the fuck is wrong in the House of the UK?

Pretty sure I'd hit a character limit before I'd finished trying to explain. It is genuinely scary.

Exactly this. The current cabinet is a bunch of hard right ideologues and disaster capitalists, including one dude what dad actually wrote a book on how to get rich in times of economic turmoil. They must be so excited for the coming housing crash so they can mop up distressed assets.

I am not a fan of Starmer and I don't think he'll be that great for the country (he's more concerned by purging his own party of anyone left leaning than by being an effective opposition) but right now, I'm like TRB we need to get rid of the Tories. By any means necessary.

[stone monkey]

Am I the only one to have noticed this, but does Liz Truss appear to have aged several years in the less than 3 weeks that she's been PM? She skipped into 10 Downing Street looking fairly spry and heaIthy... and now she looks like she's been smoking 20 a day and knocking back a couple of pints of gin since she was 12 years old. I know it's generally quite usual for the leader of a government to age visibly whilst in power - the weight of responsibility and all that - but she appears to have done a speedrun.

I mean, yes, being to blame, almost single-handedly, for comprehensively breaking the economy of a major country, practically overnight, with the first major policy decision you take is probably likely to do that to a person; I know I'd be a complete mental and physical wreck if it were me - even more so than usual, I should say.
Admittedly David Cameron didn't appear to age particularly much during his first term as PM, but I think he was probably draining Nick Clegg of blood every night... And I'd argue that Boris Johnson's blood was probably replaced with an expensive, fine port many years before he even became PM.

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 29 September 2022 - 10:45 PM