[Macros]

I genuinely blame social media and celebrity culture in part.
A lot of people now know far more about what the Kardashian s and co had for dinner than they do about anything remotely political

[Tsundoku]

Maybe it's because people tend to think short term small rewards rather than long term greater rewards. And those that do go for the long term rewards are regarded as weird, but they're the ones doing well.
Which is amazing to most of the population because they are the exception rather than the rule.

Short term election and ratings cycles? The perceived need to be seen as "winning NOW" rather than delayed greater gratification? Eg Netflix series binges on x1.25 speed rather than wait and watch a good show week by week? Or political pork-barrelling to win a marginal seat rather than doing the right thing and spending on long term projects that will bear far greater fruit later and for longer?

I also think there's not a small amount of the elites and their various proxies using the tried and true "bread and circuses" effect to constantly distract large numbers of us.

Meh, what do I know?

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 31 October 2019 - 11:20 AM

[Gorefest]

Tiste Simeon, on 29 October 2019 - 02:29 PM, said:

Sadly I think most people who vote for them will either be Brexiteers who consider the Brexit Party to be a wasted vote or people who have been fooled by the vast swathes of right wing mainstream media in this country demonising Corbyn for the past few years.

Either way, you do realise that the Tories still have a huge lead in the polls in England and Wales? I think with current polling numbers we are looking at something like 364 seat for the Tories versus 189 for Labour and 23 for the LibDems. So your comment implies that over half of the voting public in England and Wales are either Brexiteers and/or dupes. Bit harsh as a judgement and it doesn't really explain why this is happening. Sure, a lot of the popular media is right-wing. but I would counter that by saying: why are Labour etc not trying harder at getting their message across? The answer is probably in the question: they don't have a clear message. They have been a garbled mess for the past 4 years or so. So where are people supposed to turn? LibDems have basically gone full Tory-light in the past decade. The Greens are still widely perceived as a single policy party who have the environment higher in their banner than the economy and/or jobs (i.e. forget about the working class vote). And that's it.

In my view, both the UK and the USA suffer from a horrendously outdated, archaic political system where it is 'winner takes all'. This is why, when there is upheaval, people have nothing to fall back on because no party accurately reflects their personal opinions. Compare that to for instance Scandinavia or the Netherlands, where you have lots of parties, so there usually is a party that roughly matches your personal world view. They will almost always have to form coalition governments, which means that voters understand that a party cannot return 100% of their party policies and sometimes need to compromise and work together. Instead, in the Uk and the USA, polarisation is in-built in the party political system and the two sides are (literally and figuratively in the House of commons) on complete opposite ends, sniping at each other instead of finding common ground.

In my opinion, there is no fixing this unless you radically overhaul the system. Equal representation (no 'first past the post' or 'winner takes all' bollocks) and coalition government with multiple parties. It is the only way to salvage this. Otherwise I can foresee a decades long supremacy of the Republicans and the Tories. The current system massively works in their favour.

[LinearPhilosopher]

so will brexit ever happen? What if they did a 2nd referendum?

[Macros]

Oh god.

A second referendum.

Anyone who is Brexit will double down and push hard.

Unless the result was like 80% remain there would be cries for another referendum.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I really don't think a second referendum is a good idea on any level. If anything I think the swing would be even more towards Brexit, and it sets a terrible precedent ("Don't like a referendum result? We'll just have another!")

I don't actually think in my heart of hearts the general election will change anything - as Gorefest pointed out, unless the polls are wildly wrong, there's not much chance of anything bar Tory win or Tory-led coalition.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 01 November 2019 - 07:54 AM

[Maark Abbott]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 01 November 2019 - 07:54 AM, said:

I really don't think a second referendum is a good idea on any level. If anything I think the swing would be even more towards Brexit, and it sets a terrible precedent ("Don't like a referendum result? We'll just have another!")

I don't actually think in my heart of hearts the general election will change anything - as Gorefest pointed out, unless the polls are wildly wrong, there's not much chance of anything bar Tory win or Tory-led coalition.

I disagree about precedent given that the original referendum was non-binding and advisory only. What should then have happened is a further referendum which would broadly be titled 'here's how we propose we go about this'. Had that happened, with a sensible, costed plan. would we be where we are today?

Unfortunately an issue like this was always going to be hijacked by misty-eyed jingoists, and that's a big problem that we have here - a combination of the US-style military worship cult combined with a wistful longing for Victorian hegemony, the latter part of which confers a superiority complex over non-Europeans, and coupled with how our history is taught, a generic distrust of mainlanders. We as a country are basically one of those two kids who hangs around with Nelson Muntz in The Simpsons early seasons.

Ultimately, if the polls show that people want to vote for removal of their healthcare, removal of their education services, removal of their public services, and to enter some form of Orwellian dystopia, there is probably no helping them. It's not condescension in the slightest to say that people still voting for this after nine years of the country being ground into the dirt by those dirty blues is not going to pay attention to points of reason, because all our domestic problems are the fault of foreigners and not those of the governing party's policies.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Okay, point taken, the referendum wasn't binding.

However since then, Article 50 has been invoked and there's been pledges from all over the place to stand by the result of the referendum.

If a second broader scope one had happened right away, I agree with you wholeheartedly. To set a second one now, after all those pledges were made (rightly or wrongly) I think does set the precedent I referred to in the eyes of many - again, rightly or wrongly. There's already so much apathy and distrust in our political system, that would just be adding fuel to the bonfire.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 01 November 2019 - 09:49 AM

[Maark Abbott]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 01 November 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

Okay, point taken, the referendum wasn't binding.

However since then, Article 50 has been invoked and there's been pledges from all over the place to stand by the result of the referendum.

If a second broader scope one had happened right away, I agree with you wholeheartedly. To set a second one now, after all those pledges were made (rightly or wrongly) I think does set the precedent I referred to in the eyes of many - again, rightly or wrongly. There's already so much apathy and distrust in our political system, that would just be adding fuel to the bonfire.

Perhaps such fuel is what we need...

[Macros]

I find as a generic unit Britain has never rest considered itself European. A lot of people (most in my personal experience) still say something comes from Europe, or they're going to Europe as if they aren't European. I mean they won't specify a country, just 'Europe' in general. People from Mainland Europe are European as if it's a separate nationality from Britain.
This goes for the Republic as well, they aren't quite as otherist about it, but still view Europe as separate. Perhaps it's part of being Island nations, I'm not sure.

[Macros]

I say it myself btw.

I try to say on the continent or mainland at least,but generally slip into saying Europe as a foreign separate place without thinking

[Maark Abbott]

Macros, on 01 November 2019 - 12:34 PM, said:

I find as a generic unit Britain has never rest considered itself European. A lot of people (most in my personal experience) still say something comes from Europe, or they're going to Europe as if they aren't European. I mean they won't specify a country, just 'Europe' in general. People from Mainland Europe are European as if it's a separate nationality from Britain.
This goes for the Republic as well, they aren't quite as otherist about it, but still view Europe as separate. Perhaps it's part of being Island nations, I'm not sure.

It's probably the islander thing, yeah. You get it as microcosms in the UK (i.e. Portland) where the islanders have a general mistrust of mainlanders.

And it's what leads me to believe that Tory voters are culpable in its way - despite nine years of what they have demonstrably done to the country, people still vote for them. At this stage there is no excuse to not see what damage they're doing. Hell, we have a senior government figure who was fired from the last government for what was effectively treason. Madness! And people still vote for them!

Cuplable. Through and through. Ignorance is not an excuse the Courts would brook and so it's not one I can brook at this stage either.

[Mezla PigDog]

Macros, on 01 November 2019 - 12:35 PM, said:

I say it myself btw.

I try to say on the continent or mainland at least,but generally slip into saying Europe as a foreign separate place without thinking

Me too. I don't think of myself as European at all. I'm British. Britain is part of Europe so I'm all up for being a member of the EU but I'm still British. If go to the mainland I feel like I'm going somewhere very different. We are very different from the rest of Europe but I expect the French would say the same and it doesn't mean we can't work cooperatively together. Two of my colleagues are German and as we work remotely and they in a second language the opportunities for misunderstanding are manifold. The number of times I have told people in our UK office not to take a perceived slight personally because "they are German". With some French customers when they start getting annoying I often say "Just ignore it, they are French". And I don't mean any of that in an insulting way, we just are different. Everyone has the same goal in mind but small differences really add up. When you meet in person they mostly go away. It's very funny but also a minefield in the workplace. A woman who reports to me from Taiwan says British people never say what we think. We talk around stuff apparently. She laughs about it with the Germans! I'm sure I say what I think but she swears I don't in the way a German or Taiwanese person would. It's weird.

Hey ho. I should get back to work I guess.

[Grief]

Mezla PigDog, on 01 November 2019 - 01:12 PM, said:

Macros, on 01 November 2019 - 12:35 PM, said:

I say it myself btw.

I try to say on the continent or mainland at least,but generally slip into saying Europe as a foreign separate place without thinking

Me too. I don't think of myself as European at all. I'm British. Britain is part of Europe so I'm all up for being a member of the EU but I'm still British. If go to the mainland I feel like I'm going somewhere very different. We are very different from the rest of Europe but I expect the French would say the same and it doesn't mean we can't work cooperatively together.

76%% of Germans say they feel European in some way compared with 44% of Brits (Eurobarometer 2019). Britain has consistently sat at the bottom of the chart for citizens thinking of themselves as European - well below the EU average - so I don't think we can see this as a view shared across the EU. Britain's (predominantly economic) view of the EU is a mentality which is fairly particular to the island.

For me the argument that the referendum was legally non-binding is fairly irrelevant. I dislike how it's been transformed into the "will of The People" but if we're discussing the democratic validity of referenda then whether they're legally binding isn't really here nor there. One could criticise the tool just as much if it was binding after all.

[Mezla PigDog]

Farage says he won't work with the Tories unless Johnson drops his deal with the EU. Heartening news as the Hard Brexiters will have a natural home in the election. Farage is also not standing as a candidate because surely if he won he might have to do some work or accept that his arguments don't translate to democratic government.

Tactical voting sites aimed at preventing a Tory majority tell me to vote Lib Dem. Hmmmm. I really hate our electoral system.

[Maark Abbott]

Mezla PigDog, on 04 November 2019 - 06:16 AM, said:

Farage says he won't work with the Tories unless Johnson drops his deal with the EU. Heartening news as the Hard Brexiters will have a natural home in the election. Farage is also not standing as a candidate because surely if he won he might have to do some work or accept that his arguments don't translate to democratic government.

Tactical voting sites aimed at preventing a Tory majority tell me to vote Lib Dem. Hmmmm. I really hate our electoral system.

Much like Transformers and robots, Lib Dems are Tories in disguise. A vote for them is a vote for austerity, cuts to services, everything awful about those dirty blues. Because the Lib Dems vote with the Tories. Hell, look at all the hard right former Tories that they've taken on (who historically would have gone to UKIP because of being so far to the right).

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Whenever I do one of those policy based voting tests, I come out equal Lib Dem and Labour, almost every time, with occasional Labour being slightly ahead.

Which makes Lib Dems siding with the Tories seem very odd indeed.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 04 November 2019 - 04:08 PM

[Tsundoku]

What's so weird about casting aside your professed beliefs at the drop of a hat in the race for power? (Please excuse the mixed metaphors)

I'd call it weird if you didn't.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 04 November 2019 - 11:10 AM

[Mezla PigDog]

Maark Abbott, on 04 November 2019 - 07:59 AM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 04 November 2019 - 06:16 AM, said:

Farage says he won't work with the Tories unless Johnson drops his deal with the EU. Heartening news as the Hard Brexiters will have a natural home in the election. Farage is also not standing as a candidate because surely if he won he might have to do some work or accept that his arguments don't translate to democratic government.

Tactical voting sites aimed at preventing a Tory majority tell me to vote Lib Dem. Hmmmm. I really hate our electoral system.

Much like Transformers and robots, Lib Dems are Tories in disguise. A vote for them is a vote for austerity, cuts to services, everything awful about those dirty blues. Because the Lib Dems vote with the Tories. Hell, look at all the hard right former Tories that they've taken on (who historically would have gone to UKIP because of being so far to the right).

Bring something new to the conversation. Every time I post something that suggests I'm considering the only available options you come in with "Tories are bad m'kay". No shit dude.

[Maark Abbott]

Mezla PigDog, on 04 November 2019 - 03:53 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 04 November 2019 - 07:59 AM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 04 November 2019 - 06:16 AM, said:

Farage says he won't work with the Tories unless Johnson drops his deal with the EU. Heartening news as the Hard Brexiters will have a natural home in the election. Farage is also not standing as a candidate because surely if he won he might have to do some work or accept that his arguments don't translate to democratic government.

Tactical voting sites aimed at preventing a Tory majority tell me to vote Lib Dem. Hmmmm. I really hate our electoral system.

Much like Transformers and robots, Lib Dems are Tories in disguise. A vote for them is a vote for austerity, cuts to services, everything awful about those dirty blues. Because the Lib Dems vote with the Tories. Hell, look at all the hard right former Tories that they've taken on (who historically would have gone to UKIP because of being so far to the right).

Bring something new to the conversation. Every time I post something that suggests I'm considering the only available options you come in with "Tories are bad m'kay". No shit dude.

Quote

Tactical voting sites aimed at preventing a Tory majority tell me to vote Lib Dem.

It's always worth reminding folk that Lib Dems vote with Tories, are in a not dismissible part made up of former, very right wing Tories and caused a lot of the domestic factors that caused the entire Brexit mess in the first place with the Tories.

So if you took my post as just Tory bashing, it wasn't. It was actually aimed at the Lib Dems, which is quite evident on a base read. Their 'tactical voting' sites are only really going to keep some of them on the gravy train where they can keep voting through cuts to services, funding, rights, etc (if people vote for them, that is)