[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Having a direct mix on social media of city folk like myself, and because I'm a falconer a lot of rural self-employed folks as well, is a grand exercise in looking at how wildly different people's views of the world can be whilst all of them remaining decent people.

Sometimes people have a different view and they're not the scum of the earth. Novel, eh?

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 29 October 2019 - 01:09 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

No Silencer in this instance I think you're wrong. Based on what has happened the past few years and the absolute mess we're in I genuinely think a vote for the Tories is a morally wrong one. There is literally no benefit for working class types or indeed a majority of the citizenry to do so. It may seem like a sweeping statement but try living with them for the past decade. Try working in public services as I do.

Sadly I think most people who vote for them will either be Brexiteers who consider the Brexit Party to be a wasted vote or people who have been fooled by the vast swathes of right wing mainstream media in this country demonising Corbyn for the past few years.

It's all very well to try to moderate things but I think it's justified in this case.

[Macros]

Yes and no.

Nothing is more likely to get someone's back up and make them immediately defensive and less receptive to reasoned arguement than a blanket painting.

Ask them why they vote X, and keep asking pointed questions, don't just lambast

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Macros, on 29 October 2019 - 02:41 PM, said:

Ask them why they vote X, and keep asking pointed questions, don't just lambast

Personally I think that's the key.

If they prove to be immoral, racist or anything else they could be painted as, well then at least you've had it from their own mouth I guess!

[Silencer]

Tiste Simeon, on 29 October 2019 - 02:29 PM, said:

No Silencer in this instance I think you're wrong. Based on what has happened the past few years and the absolute mess we're in I genuinely think a vote for the Tories is a morally wrong one. There is literally no benefit for working class types or indeed a majority of the citizenry to do so. It may seem like a sweeping statement but try living with them for the past decade. Try working in public services as I do.

Sadly I think most people who vote for them will either be Brexiteers who consider the Brexit Party to be a wasted vote or people who have been fooled by the vast swathes of right wing mainstream media in this country demonising Corbyn for the past few years.

It's all very well to try to moderate things but I think it's justified in this case.

As Maccy said, whether this is true or not (bearing in mind, not everyone is similarly as informed as you, or even believes the same sources of information that you do), it's not the way to go about discussing it.

You are most welcome to provide your opinion on the policies the Tories stand for and why you think those policies are bad. This is distinct from saying, outright, that the people who vote for the Tories are bad without exception. The only people who will engage with the latter position will be doing so confrontationally at best and trolling at worst. Literally the best possible outcome you can hope for is that the person in question disengages from the discussion and goes off to find their own echo chamber that reinforces their world views - at which point, congratulations, you've further entrenched their beliefs and made the political divide just that bit wider.

If you aren't willing to engage people using facts and assuming the best of them, then why should they do you the same courtesy? You say they have been fooled by misinformation - how, exactly, is you treating them like a lost cause helping?
Again, we're not asking you to treat the opinions other people bring to the table as equal, we're just asking you not to put a fence up around the table and say anyone not at it currently is a bad person who can't possibly be redeemed.





******

On a side note, it never amazes me to see how many people think they're the only ones dealing with intolerable political positions being rammed down their throats, entrenched bipartisanship, and racism/bigotry, idiots, or assholes, etc ad nauseum. Every time, it's "well if YOU had to deal with it, maybe you wouldn't be so forgiving". Do you think this isn't a problem in Australia? That I don't work with people who support Trump, or Brexit, or our local equivalents? Just because it doesn't make the news cycle in Britain doesn't mean we aren't dealing with our own shit, people. /mini-rant

[Khellendros]

I think that the best remainers can hope for is that the election produced another hung parliament. More likely we’ll see a Conservative victory. I hope that Labour can pull off the same trick of impressing with their manifesto as in 2017 and build upon it - but I think it very unlikely. Ultimately this will probably be a proxy referendum, and unfortunately the remain vote is split.

[Tiste Simeon]

If arguing with facts and the truth worked we never would have had brexit in the first place...

[Gorefest]

2134: Britain comes to the EU parliament to request their annual extension. Nobody can remember how this quaint tradition started or what they are actually hoping to extend.

[Tiste Simeon]

Ok so the latest thing the Tories have done (don't worry Silencer this actually happened...) Is that the blame for Grenfell has somehow fallen on the fire service. After years of vicious cuts to the fire service. The PM has said "at last the truth" as if its all done and we can all go home happy.

Many of the victims were still living out of suitcases over a year after the event. Oh and when Labour went "hang on there are tons of empty houses across London owned by fatcat landlords why don't we put the victims in them?" the press went mental at this.

At least our lords and masters weren't blamed eh?

[Silencer]

Tiste Simeon, on 30 October 2019 - 05:27 AM, said:

Ok so the latest thing the Tories have done (don't worry Silencer this actually happened...) Is that the blame for Grenfell has somehow fallen on the fire service. After years of vicious cuts to the fire service. The PM has said "at last the truth" as if its all done and we can all go home happy.

Many of the victims were still living out of suitcases over a year after the event. Oh and when Labour went "hang on there are tons of empty houses across London owned by fatcat landlords why don't we put the victims in them?" the press went mental at this.

At least our lords and masters weren't blamed eh?

Wow, that seems like a really shitty thing for a political party to do. Glad you could call it out without blaming the people who vote for them, good job!


See? I can do condescension too.

[Tiste Simeon]

Are you ok? You seem really wound up recently.

And yes it's a horrible thing to do, and just one in a massive list of objectively and subjectively horrible things that they have done. Hence: why would anyone vote for them knowing that?

[Maark Abbott]

Tiste Simeon, on 29 October 2019 - 02:29 PM, said:

No Silencer in this instance I think you're wrong. Based on what has happened the past few years and the absolute mess we're in I genuinely think a vote for the Tories is a morally wrong one. There is literally no benefit for working class types or indeed a majority of the citizenry to do so. It may seem like a sweeping statement but try living with them for the past decade. Try working in public services as I do.

Sadly I think most people who vote for them will either be Brexiteers who consider the Brexit Party to be a wasted vote or people who have been fooled by the vast swathes of right wing mainstream media in this country demonising Corbyn for the past few years.

It's all very well to try to moderate things but I think it's justified in this case.

Very much this. Silencer, frankly, if you would repress stating what is very evident as a UK resident - that a vote for the Tories is a vote against healthcare, a vote against fiscal stability, a vote against public services, a vote that supports an active purge of the disabled... To not question the character of someone voting for a party whose sole goal is to secure further financial breaks for the rich would be a dereliction of my duty as a UK resident.

Unfortunately the people who vote for them are just as culpable because they allow themselves to buy into a media propaganda machine rather than asking questions.We have been attempting to provide rationale to their voter base over the last nine years, but as is often the way with very polarised folk, it's laughed off. You cannot debate the vast majority of right wing voters in the UK because they are utterly unwilling to engage in it. There are some rare examples where you can actually enter a reasonable conversation about it, but they are very few and far between.

On a related note, I find it very telling indeed that de Pfeffel threw his toys out of the pram when the possibility of 16 year olds voting came up (they pay tax, Tory Party members can vote for party leaders from age 15 so it is a reasonable enough amendment) - they are terrified of the youth vote, because people who are between 14-18 now are the ones who have borne the brunt of their malignant and socially destructive policies. If they don't protect their gravy train by doing a brexit before they get voted out... Disaster (for them, much less so the rest of us).

[Macros]

Again, yes and no.

Culpability totally yes.
But when 90% of the media is not sure by one wanker, people I st receive lies, and it's a documented thin that the brain reacts to new ideas and differences the same way it does to a physical threat.

Hence the need for questions and showing rather than "you Tories voting scumbag"

[Maark Abbott]

Macros, on 30 October 2019 - 10:42 AM, said:

Again, yes and no.

Culpability totally yes.
But when 90% of the media is not sure by one wanker, people I st receive lies, and it's a documented thin that the brain reacts to new ideas and differences the same way it does to a physical threat.

Hence the need for questions and showing rather than "you Tories voting scumbag"

Questions only work when the recipient is receptive to them and doesn't retreat into their shell of Breksits means Brecksits.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

But to further Macros point, if the alternative view or questions or whatever were put to you with the rhetoric "If you think otherwise then you are *insert version of "devil incarnate" of choice here" - would you answer and engage with that? For certain I wouldn't.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 30 October 2019 - 12:47 PM

[Maark Abbott]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 30 October 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

But to further Macros point, if the alternative view or questions or whatever were put to you with the rhetoric "If you think otherwise then you are *insert version of "devil incarnate" of choice here" - would you answer and engage with that? For certain I wouldn't.

It's for this very reason that I don't engage with Leave voters - us on the left are all traitor Ramonas, hate the UK, etc etc etc etc

In the rare instance someone on the Leave side presents a rational, reasoned argument for their position I am more than happy to engage with them in good faith, and it kind of becomes a stage 2 negotiation (of sorts).

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Maark Abbott, on 30 October 2019 - 12:51 PM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 30 October 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

But to further Macros point, if the alternative view or questions or whatever were put to you with the rhetoric "If you think otherwise then you are *insert version of "devil incarnate" of choice here" - would you answer and engage with that? For certain I wouldn't.

It's for this very reason that I don't engage with Leave voters - us on the left are all traitor Ramonas, hate the UK, etc etc etc etc

In the rare instance someone on the Leave side presents a rational, reasoned argument for their position I am more than happy to engage with them in good faith, and it kind of becomes a stage 2 negotiation (of sorts).

I don't disagree in that I've seen plenty of that - but there's enough Remainers calling Leave voters all names under the sun too. The point really isn't about which side is behaving better or worse than the other, it's about the fact name calling closes down discussion and culpability isn't quite the same as "you are a bad person because you voted X".

[Macros]

In the main, people don't like admitting they are wrong.
It's why people chase bad beats in gambling, double down on bad debt and all that other jazz.

You don't have to convince them you're right and they're wrong. But name calling will make people (generalisation ahoy) more defensive and dismissive of what you say.

Hey I'm guilty of it myself, but I am trying

[Maark Abbott]

Macros, on 30 October 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

In the main, people don't like admitting they are wrong.
It's why people chase bad beats in gambling, double down on bad debt and all that other jazz.

You don't have to convince them you're right and they're wrong. But name calling will make people (generalisation ahoy) more defensive and dismissive of what you say.

Hey I'm guilty of it myself, but I am trying

Quiet, you Irish drainpipe chap, you.

But in seriousness, yeah, this is the case - and as a rule why I usually avoid engaging with right-leaning voters. I can have a reasonable debate with a close friend about it because his position as to Leave is actually backed up with logical points that are rooted in fact (to which there are counters of course, but our argument is very much a case of the devil you know VS the worse, Boris shaped devil you know).

But as a general rule and over the last few years where I have generally taken the view that reason and discourse is the stance to take, it has become quite apparent that in the overwhelming majority of cases it just doesn't work. I would also contest that it's how the hard (Tories) and far right (UKIP and subsequently Farage Gravy Train Racists Party) have been able to claw back into positions of power.

[Tsundoku]

Does anyone think the general degradation of public debate could be linked with the general dumbing down we seem to be experiencing as a result of our info-overloaded, short attention-span, lack of patience for rewards type lifestyles which are pretty much a direct result of not just the Internet Age, but the bonding of internet-at-your-fingertips and self that seems to be happening? "Smart"phones are now part of people's identities and people are slaves to them. Nobody seems to want to think for very long, or engage in anything that doesn't provide an instant reward (brain hit).

Dammit I know what I'm trying to say but I just can't express it. Or be arsed trying ...

Or should I just take this to the discussion of discussion meta thread?