[Maark Abbott]

Primateus, on 15 January 2019 - 09:52 PM, said:

It seems that Donald Tusk has now specifically suggested that the UK simply cancel Brexit.

It's been suggested several times and we could do so without sanction.

And realistically, that's the best option on the table.

At least we'll finally be able to get those vile Tories out of government and back onto the witch pyres where they belong.

[Andorion]

Someone explain to me how an initiative of a ruling part in a parliamentary system was defeated by 200 votes? Its pretty clear that significant parts of the Conservative Party want nothing to do with Brexit anymore

[Macros]

and never did

[Gorefest]

Andorion, on 16 January 2019 - 09:06 AM, said:

Someone explain to me how an initiative of a ruling part in a parliamentary system was defeated by 200 votes? Its pretty clear that significant parts of the Conservative Party want nothing to do with Brexit anymore

That is incorrect. A lot of them are not against Brexit, ubt they were against May's specific Brexit deal. The hardline Brexiteers feel that it would indefinitely tie the UK into a forced customs union until the Irish border issue could be resolved (never), which would prevent the UK from making independent trade deals with the rest of the world. Which is the big pet idea of the leading Brexiteers, this magical moment where they can compensate for all the financial, economical and social destruction by making amazing new trade deals with India and China. Which in their heads would be way more impressive than the deals that are already in place as negotiated by a powerful economical block called the EU.

[Maark Abbott]

Gorefest, on 16 January 2019 - 11:49 AM, said:

Andorion, on 16 January 2019 - 09:06 AM, said:

Someone explain to me how an initiative of a ruling part in a parliamentary system was defeated by 200 votes? Its pretty clear that significant parts of the Conservative Party want nothing to do with Brexit anymore

That is incorrect. A lot of them are not against Brexit, ubt they were against May's specific Brexit deal. The hardline Brexiteers feel that it would indefinitely tie the UK into a forced customs union until the Irish border issue could be resolved (never), which would prevent the UK from making independent trade deals with the rest of the world. Which is the big pet idea of the leading Brexiteers, this magical moment where they can compensate for all the financial, economical and social destruction by making amazing new trade deals with India and China. Which in their heads would be way more impressive than the deals that are already in place as negotiated by a powerful economical block called the EU.

Also India have said that any trade deal with them would necessitate freedom of movement. And Brexiters don't like brown folk none.

[Cause]

This is embarrassing.

Is there even a remote chance that the UK will just cancel brexit? Surely the news agencies are doing polls about the peoples wishes?

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I'm not sure it would come back with a different result if they voted on it again (which is more likely than just pulling out altogether) - as people have said, there's so much disenfranchisement and a good deal of a sense of "just get on with it now" that Leave might even get a larger majority.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 16 January 2019 - 02:10 PM

[Gorefest]

Cause, on 16 January 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

This is embarrassing.

Is there even a remote chance that the UK will just cancel brexit? Surely the news agencies are doing polls about the peoples wishes?

Just straight out cancelling it seems unlikely. I don't think any politician in Westminster has the balls to do that. They have been shouting so long now that the vote of the people matters, that the backlash would be huge. The 'chicken' way out would be to have a 2nd referendum and then use that as a justification to cancel Brexit if people massively vote in favour of remain. But as RBB rightly says, I suspect that it might end up even more in favour of leave now. If only because people are fed up and just want the politicians to stop politicking and actually get their heads screwed on. And even if it would be a remain victory, you'd then have the Brexiters crying that it now is 1-1 and we should have a 3rd referendum to decide which of the two referenda was the accurate one. It is a downward spiral. That chapter is closed.

[Khellendros]

Cause, on 16 January 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

This is embarrassing.

Is there even a remote chance that the UK will just cancel brexit? Surely the news agencies are doing polls about the peoples wishes?

They are, and those surveys/interviews suggest that those who wanted to remain still want to remain, and those who wanted to leave the EU still want to leave the EU. There's no difference.

[Tiste Simeon]

Khellendros, on 16 January 2019 - 03:10 PM, said:

Cause, on 16 January 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

This is embarrassing.

Is there even a remote chance that the UK will just cancel brexit? Surely the news agencies are doing polls about the peoples wishes?

They are, and those surveys/interviews suggest that those who wanted to remain still want to remain, and those who wanted to leave the EU still want to leave the EU. There's no difference.

The hope is that there are so many oldiewonks who voted to get rid of foreigners, a bunch of them are likely dead now, and with a load of young people now 18 it might swing.

[Traveller]

Yeah, most people do want it all to be over now. But they still want it to be over in their favour.

I can't believe the people I'm hearing throughout the day, who seemingly haven't been paying any attention to anything the last couple of years, still spouting the same shit as they did before. Like nothing has changed.. 'just get on with it already, why is it taking this long?'

I just want a legal loophole somewhere that lets the government say 'we wanted to give you Brexit, but unfortunately it turns out the referendum doesn't actually have to be honoured as you were mis-sold something which is the equivalent of a country putting catastrophic economic sanctions ON ITSELF. So we're not going to do it.

And as a postscript, jailing those who lead the Leave campaign for fraud.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 16 January 2019 - 09:50 PM

[Maark Abbott]

Tories maintained in Parliament because the DUP propped them up (again).

It's becoming increasingly clear that both the Tories and the DUP are acting against the national interest. No deal is infinitely worse than not leaving at all, and they've acknowledged this, but there is now no chance of a deal because the EU aren't open to negotiate further - their position is clear.

So, realistically, it's in the national interest to call it off. I'm not saying overall, don't do it - but the approach to it has been criminally incompetent. The only reason we are where we are is because Tories want to avoid paying further tax, and because people are gullible enough to believe that all our domestic problems, stemming from said government, are caused by foreigners.

[Gorefest]

What baffles me still is that so many Labour MPs, including their bloody leader, are still in favour of Brexit. Surely, if you see the likes of Boris Johnson and Jacob Reese-Mogg supporting it, you *know* it has to be a terrible idea for 95% of the country bar a few rich folk? It is painfully stupid.

[Primateus]

Maark Abbott, on 17 January 2019 - 08:22 AM, said:

It's becoming increasingly clear that both the Tories and the DUP are acting against the national interest. No deal is infinitely worse than not leaving at all, and they've acknowledged this, but there is now no chance of a deal because the EU aren't open to negotiate further - their position is clear.

(My bold)

You just know that there's going to be some serious cognitive dissonance from the brexiteers when they'll want to put all the blame on the EU because of that.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Gorefest, on 17 January 2019 - 01:01 PM, said:

What baffles me still is that so many Labour MPs, including their bloody leader, are still in favour of Brexit. Surely, if you see the likes of Boris Johnson and Jacob Reese-Mogg supporting it, you *know* it has to be a terrible idea for 95% of the country bar a few rich folk? It is painfully stupid.

It'd be dicing with political suicide to oppose the referendum now though, I think. I mean I agree with everything you just said because I'm a reasonable human being with a jot of sense. The fact we've ended up where we are is proof not everyone in the UK shares those qualities, and I suspect Corbyn et al know that. Besides the very point that Corbyn's always been a Eurosceptic himself.

Whichever way you wrap it up, I refer us all to Captain E Blackadder's "This is a large crisis" speech.

[Silencer]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 17 January 2019 - 02:34 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 17 January 2019 - 01:01 PM, said:

What baffles me still is that so many Labour MPs, including their bloody leader, are still in favour of Brexit. Surely, if you see the likes of Boris Johnson and Jacob Reese-Mogg supporting it, you *know* it has to be a terrible idea for 95% of the country bar a few rich folk? It is painfully stupid.

It'd be dicing with political suicide to oppose the referendum now though, I think. I mean I agree with everything you just said because I'm a reasonable human being with a jot of sense. The fact we've ended up where we are is proof not everyone in the UK shares those qualities, and I suspect Corbyn et al know that. Besides the very point that Corbyn's always been a Eurosceptic himself.

Whichever way you wrap it up, I refer us all to Captain E Blackadder's "This is a large crisis" speech.

There is this great skit about gun control John Oliver did, and it has a segment addressing arguments based on political suicide.
A politicians job is to do the best thing for the nation. If that means committing political suicide, so be it. Their career is secondary to the lives and wellbeing of their constituents.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

If I could name a single politician in my country whom I think would act in accordance with that, I'd be a very happy lady.

I agree, that should be the way of it. Sadly I have little faith it is for any of them.

[Maark Abbott]

They're acting entirely in personal interest. There's a reason that the ferry company contracted for £13m or so was contracted despite having no ships or infrastructure - their owner is mates with May's husband.

Frankly, and it pains me to say this, but I'm beginning to think there's no other way to deal with this than via single-letter names, the Underground, and those hyena things from D&D but covered in turf.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

https://www.nytimes....xphrD0Car3Zktkc

'The Malign Incompetence of the British Ruling Class

With Brexit, the chumocrats who drew borders from India to Ireland are getting a taste of their own medicine.'

[Maark Abbott]

Azath Vitr (D, on 18 January 2019 - 06:56 AM, said:

https://www.nytimes....xphrD0Car3Zktkc

'The Malign Incompetence of the British Ruling Class

With Brexit, the chumocrats who drew borders from India to Ireland are getting a taste of their own medicine.'

Where is the lie