[Siergiej]

All predictions and crazy theories are spread across different threads, so I thought bringing them together would make it easier to navigate and debate. For the sake of formality: heavy spoilers.

Happy to start!

Dragnipur & Draconus


We have already seen the cart, but I don't think it will we have a larger role to play in Walk in Shadow. I wouldn't be surprised if we've already seen all of Draconus in Kharkanas Trilogy. And even if he reappears, we won't learn how he got chained. There's still A LOT of story to be told before the Tiste invasion on Wu, and AFAIR from Reaper's Gale intro, Anomander does not wield Dragnipur yet during the invasion. Maybe after Mother Dark turns from the Andii (because of Eleint blood?) she returns to Elemental Darkness to Draconus and then he creates the sword?

There is this quote from Midnight Tides, it's by Fear Sengar though, so likely unreliable as we know Edur mythology to be twisted:

Quote

‘Kaschan sorcery was sent into the warren of Mother Dark, like a plague. Thus was sealed the gate from Kurald Galain to every other realm. Thus was Mother Dark driven into the very core of the Abyss, witness to an endless swirl of light surrounding her – all that she would one day devour, until the last speck of matter vanishes into her. Annihilating Mother Dark. Thus the Kaschan, who are long dead, set upon Mother Dark a ritual that will end in her murder. When all Light is gone. When there is naught to cast Shadow, and so Shadow too is doomed to die.

I imagine this to be a possible timeline:
1. Draconus retreats to Elemental Darkness (end of FoL)
2. Civil war is reignited (Huun Raal? Osserc's comeback?)
3. Tiste awaken to their draconic blood or drink Eleint blood
4. MD turns on them
5. Sundering of Emulrahn occurs and somehow pushes Tiste to flee to Wu
6. K'Chain unleash Kaschan ritual against Darkness-aspected sorcery to protect themselves from Tiste magic during the invasion
7. The ritual lets Chaos breach Elemental Darkness, Draconus puts the cart in motion to give MD a way to flee

Errastas & Sechul Lath

I looked at the Tor re-read of RG and the fragment with Gothos mentioning Kilmandaros' children losing her way caught my attention. We know that Sechul Lath is her son and Errastas is his brother, though they only share the father IIRC. We know from K'rul in FoL that Errastas plans to abuse the warrens, so maybe the sundering of Emurlahn was their deed? There was also some speculation that Kilmanadaros might be Icarium's mother and we know that he 'wounded' Emurlahn, so maybe Errastas and Sechul somehow used Icarium to destroy Emurlahn? It's a long shot, but would also explain why Gothos, a suicidal recluse, was there to intervene - some sense of responsibility for Icarium's deeds?

Also, Gothos lives nearby an Azath house that will in the future be in Letheras and it is still to welcome Silchas and Sheltatha Lore to its loving embrace. We know from Toll the Hounds that Gothos knows about Builders and exploits their power. He seems already aware of them in FoL:

Quote

Arathan shrugged. ‘It’s not Jaghut script. Gothos said something about a mad Builder.’
‘Builder?’
‘The ones who make Azath Houses.’

So Gothos might have a bigger role to play in the Wu invasion than we were shown in MT and RG.

High King


I think the humans are already in this world. There's this tidbit from Raest about the War on Death:

Quote

‘Thel Akai, who like a good joke,’ Raest said, nodding. ‘Dog-Runners, who have made sorrow a goddess of endless tears. Ilnap, who flee a usurper among their island kingdom. Forulkan, seeking the final arbiter. Jheck and Jhelarkan, ever eager for blood, even should it ooze from carrion. Petty tyrants from across the ocean, fleeing the High King’s incorruptible justice. Tiste, Azathanai, Halacahi, Thelomen—’

'Petty tyrants' are the only race not named. It might just be Erikson toying with us and avoiding saying it out loud: Kallor is already leading a human empire.

Also, I think we get foreshadowing of Ereko's death from Hood and a Thel Akai woman Erekol:

Quote

‘Where is your son?’
‘Aboard a stout ship.’
‘In what sea?’
‘West. They ply the Furrow Strait, hunting dhenrabi.’
‘Near the High King’s lands, then.’
She shrugged. ‘Thel Akai fear no one.’
‘Unwise. The High King has set his protection upon the dhenrabi, and their breeding waters.’
‘My son is safe. What matters it to you, Hood?’

+

Quote

She moved away a step, and then paused and glanced back. ‘What vision has found you, and what has it to do with my son?’
‘I see him in the High King’s shadow. That is not a good place to be.’

Quick Ben


Okay, so after FoL it's not anymore a question of if but how Korya Delath becomes Quick Ben. She's a mahybe, aspected to Darkness, trained to prolong her life by absorbing souls. And she's a counter against Errastas, which is interesting.

Haut gives Korya a finnest at some point and there might be a hint in that. Maybe when she collects a number of souls she can absorb, she locks her power in a finnest and then passes it on to the next mahybe and so it goes for millenia?

Edgewalker


I think it's Yedan Narad. One of the first Edur, possibly the first Watch. He is's supposed to protect the shoreline (Emurlahn in Shake!) and can see the destiny of a future Yedan. He also swears to answer Anomander's call shall he make one, and we know that both Anomander and Edgewalker will be instrumental in protecting the Throne of Shadow. And in RG intro Anomander seems to know whereabouts of Edgewalker ('Edgewalker is committed elsewhere').


Anomander's mother


That's the craziest one, so I left for the end. That's what Caladan tells Anomander:

Quote

‘Intentions precede our deeds, and then are left lying in the wake of those deeds. I am not the voice of posterity, Anomander Rake. Nor are you.’
‘Rake?’
‘Purake is an Azathanai word,’ Brood said. ‘You did not know? It was an honorific granted to your family, to your father in his youth.’
‘Why? How did he earn it?’
The Azathanai shrugged. ‘K’rul gave it. He did not share his reasons. Or, rather, “she”, as K’rul is wont to change his mind’s way of thinking, and so assumes a woman’s guise every few centuries. He is now a man, but back then he was a woman.’

Much later, Skillen Droe meets with K'rul at the Sidleways:

Quote

‘I heard your call, K’rul, and so here I am. I preferred you as a woman.’
‘My days of birthing are done, for a time.’
‘But not, it seems, your bleeding.’

It's not said outright, but strongly implies that K'rul has children. What if he/she was the mother of Anomander and his brothers? Being half-Azathanai might explain why Anomander and Silchas partially defied the Mother Dark's blessing of turning black.

[worry]

It is said outright in FoD (by Grizzin Farl to Caladan Brood) that "K'rul has begotten a child" but it's unclear if it's meant as a metaphor for the sorcery, or if the blood simply accompanied actual childbirth.

Re: Dragnipur changing hands (and perhaps even the forging), I agree that's a far future event. In BaB QoD says Drac spent "a millennium" in Dragnipur before he learned his lesson. That millennium could be the first of many in the sword, and could come at any point in history really, but I think it's way closer to "modern" Wu time than Kharkanas time. I mean all the EGs had human worshipers (Drac still has them as of RotCG) so as far as I'm concerned one thing that hasn't changed is the human/god relationships developing. Who knows, maybe Errastas wins -- leaving the compromise of Elder Warrens, worship, and blood magic for now -- until Gothos' ritual freezes him out? And that's waaaaaaaay in the future. But then...

Re: Kallor, what you say is very intriguing. I dunno if humans are around, but that'd be a trip. We don't actually know what/who the Halacahi are though. Speaking of Ereko though, one thing I noticed in BaB is that it's speculated that the 3 EGs cursed Kallor for his genocide of the TTTs, not for what he's done to humans.

I'll c/p my thing about Ruthan Gudd in here:

Quote

I know others have covered the Korya "twelve lifetimes" comment from Haut, and how that points pretty directly to Quick Ben in one way or another, but there's another line from Gothos (IIRC) to Arathan that points to his own Ruthan Gudd connection imo. Much was made about Arathan being Drac's son but Ruthan calling Drac a friend. Well here Gothos pretty directly advises Arathan to someday "meet his eye and call him friend" -- Arathan is skeptical of course, but Gothos goes on to say Drac already think of Arathan as one.

[Siergiej]

Ah, I forgot about the Ruthan Gudd thing. Good spot with that 'friend' comment. After FoD I was skeptical of looking for Ruthan Gudd's identity, because I didn't think he goes this far back. If we're right about Draconus' chaining still being far ahead, Suzerain has a lot of time to make new friends and enemies. But that thing makes me much more convinced. If Arathan is someone we met in Malazan, then Ruthan Gudd seems indeed the most likely choice. Plus Ruthan Gudd clearly recognizes Quick Ben in DoD/tCG and now we can be almost sure that there is a direct link between Korya and QB.

Quote

Re: Kallor, what you say is very intriguing. I dunno if humans are around, but that'd be a trip. We don't actually know what/who the Halacahi are though. Speaking of Ereko though, one thing I noticed in BaB is that it's speculated that the 3 EGs cursed Kallor for his genocide of the TTTs, not for what he's done to humans.

And we know now that Thel Akai disobey High King with hunting the dhenrabi. And killing all of them because of that sounds like a very Kallorian thing to do.

[Coltaine -]

Draconus & Dragnipur

Yeah, I also don't think that we will see this. But I hope Draconus will come back in Walk in Shadows. It would be nice why he and Rake stopped being friends. And maybe some hints why Rake will kill him.
The timeline looks good

The High King

Due to the Ereko thing it is now pretty clear that the High King is really Kallor. But this would also mean that Kallor is probably an Azathanai. I liked the idea of him being a just cursed human more.
But Kallor can rule over other people than humans. Maybe his empire lasted until the humans evolved. Or he had more than one empire and lost them all. Like always.

Humans in the world would also contradict the whole Dogerunners/Imass evolving into Humans, Barghasts, Moranth. But we have now an alternative explanation for the Barghast and a much older origin. By the way, are the dogrunners the ancestors of the Imass or the Imass itself? It would be strange if the Imass already knew that the Jaghut are no gods.

Quick Ben

Korya becomes Ben somehow. I would go with with good old soulshifting. It is/will become Quick Ben after all


Edgewalker

I also thought about Narad. He seems like the most likely candidat. But something/some goddamn Azathanai has to turn him into a god like Draconus Mother Dark and T'riss indirectly Vatha Urusander. Edgewalker claimed that he was an Elder God. Yedan Narad, first king of High House Shadow and now damned to guard the ruins of his realm forever. This will be sad.

Anomander's Mother

K'rul? Why not. I thought that Arathan could be the child of K'rul. But Anomander + brothers is probably also possible.
This would make Nimander junior and Phaed three-quarter Azathanai.

[Messremb]

Coltaine93, on 23 May 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Humans in the world would also contradict the whole Dogerunners/Imass evolving into Humans, Barghasts, Moranth. But we have now an alternative explanation for the Barghast and a much older origin. By the way, are the dogrunners the ancestors of the Imass or the Imass itself? It would be strange if the Imass already knew that the Jaghut are no gods.

One of the Dog Runners was named Ifayle. I would suspect that in much the same way as Kron leads the Kron T'lan Imass then Ifayle does the same for his own tribe, the one of which Tolb Bell'al is the only known survivor

[Coltaine -]

Messremb, on 23 May 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

Coltaine93, on 23 May 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Humans in the world would also contradict the whole Dogerunners/Imass evolving into Humans, Barghasts, Moranth. But we have now an alternative explanation for the Barghast and a much older origin. By the way, are the dogrunners the ancestors of the Imass or the Imass itself? It would be strange if the Imass already knew that the Jaghut are no gods.

One of the Dog Runners was named Ifayle. I would suspect that in much the same way as Kron leads the Kron T'lan Imass then Ifayle does the same for his own tribe, the one of which Tolb Bell'al is the only known survivor

Oh, yes. You are right. So Dogrunners=Imass?

Maybe there is a (large) timegap between Tiste civil war/creation of the warrens, and Raest being a Tyrant. The Imass forgot about the other races or they became just legends and myths to them. And so Raest could trick them into worshiping him.

[Siergiej]

Quote

Humans in the world would also contradict the whole Dogerunners/Imass evolving into Humans, Barghasts, Moranth. But we have now an alternative explanation for the Barghast and a much older origin. By the way, are the dogrunners the ancestors of the Imass or the Imass itself? It would be strange if the Imass already knew that the Jaghut are no gods.

With what we've learned from K'rul and Vix, we can probably assume that evolution is not the dominant force in the emergence of new species in the Malazan world. Certainly not the sentient ones. It's more like 'intelligent design' And Kallor might even be the Azathanai who created humans. I'm reaching here, but Azathanai are aspected (I think Envy and Spite say that in FoD) and some aspects can be quite odd, e.g. Grizzin Farl who is the Protector of Nothing so probably aspected to failure or tragedy. So what if Kallor's aspect is tyranny? I'm reaching here, but it sort of makes sense.

And as for Imass/Dogrunners being aware of Jaghut shenanigans, I think it's only some individuals that have realized this. Similar to how some Tiste discovered that Draconus is an Azathanai, but for most he's still a weird-ass despicable highborn.

[Coltaine -]

Siergiej, on 23 May 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

Quote

Humans in the world would also contradict the whole Dogerunners/Imass evolving into Humans, Barghasts, Moranth. But we have now an alternative explanation for the Barghast and a much older origin. By the way, are the dogrunners the ancestors of the Imass or the Imass itself? It would be strange if the Imass already knew that the Jaghut are no gods.

With what we've learned from K'rul and Vix, we can probably assume that evolution is not the dominant force in the emergence of new species in the Malazan world. Certainly not the sentient ones. It's more like 'intelligent design' And Kallor might even be the Azathanai who created humans. I'm reaching here, but Azathanai are aspected (I think Envy and Spite say that in FoD) and some aspects can be quite odd, e.g. Grizzin Farl who is the Protector of Nothing so probably aspected to failure or tragedy. So what if Kallor's aspect is tyranny? I'm reaching here, but it sort of makes sense.

And as for Imass/Dogrunners being aware of Jaghut shenanigans, I think it's only some individuals that have realized this. Similar to how some Tiste discovered that Draconus is an Azathanai, but for most he's still a weird-ass despicable highborn.

Kallor, Azathanai of Tyranny. I like that idea.

Vix - designer of races. Or at least giving evolution a kick into the right direction.
Hm, now I have the picture of a Thelomen and a Dogrunner on a date, with Vix playing the violin in the background, and magically lighting the candles.

[Nevyn]

Coltaine93, on 23 May 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

Messremb, on 23 May 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

Coltaine93, on 23 May 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Humans in the world would also contradict the whole Dogerunners/Imass evolving into Humans, Barghasts, Moranth. But we have now an alternative explanation for the Barghast and a much older origin. By the way, are the dogrunners the ancestors of the Imass or the Imass itself? It would be strange if the Imass already knew that the Jaghut are no gods.

One of the Dog Runners was named Ifayle. I would suspect that in much the same way as Kron leads the Kron T'lan Imass then Ifayle does the same for his own tribe, the one of which Tolb Bell'al is the only known survivor

Oh, yes. You are right. So Dogrunners=Imass?

Maybe there is a (large) timegap between Tiste civil war/creation of the warrens, and Raest being a Tyrant. The Imass forgot about the other races or they became just legends and myths to them. And so Raest could trick them into worshiping him.

Not really. Raest is not the only Tyrant, and one of the Imass (forget whether it was Ifayle or one of the Bonecasters who went to the Hust legion) refers to Tyrants playing games with the dog runners. The potential for something like the ritual is also alluded to (i think mentioned as becoming possible due to what Hood is doing). It may not all be tomorrow, but the seeds are already being (or have been) sown.

[Nevyn]

This book really got us no closer to any identities. The links to QB and Kallor are stronger, but those were probably the best bets from FoD anyway (most extensively hinted).

[Followthehollow]

Siergiej, on 23 May 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

Quote

Humans in the world would also contradict the whole Dogerunners/Imass evolving into Humans, Barghasts, Moranth. But we have now an alternative explanation for the Barghast and a much older origin. By the way, are the dogrunners the ancestors of the Imass or the Imass itself? It would be strange if the Imass already knew that the Jaghut are no gods.

With what we've learned from K'rul and Vix, we can probably assume that evolution is not the dominant force in the emergence of new species in the Malazan world. Certainly not the sentient ones. It's more like 'intelligent design' And Kallor might even be the Azathanai who created humans. I'm reaching here, but Azathanai are aspected (I think Envy and Spite say that in FoD) and some aspects can be quite odd, e.g. Grizzin Farl who is the Protector of Nothing so probably aspected to failure or tragedy. So what if Kallor's aspect is tyranny? I'm reaching here, but it sort of makes sense.

And as for Imass/Dogrunners being aware of Jaghut shenanigans, I think it's only some individuals that have realized this. Similar to how some Tiste discovered that Draconus is an Azathanai, but for most he's still a weird-ass despicable highborn.

I actually just posted a rambling pile of theories on reddit, and came here to register and post it as well, and it response to your post looks like the best place for it. excuse the formatting as I copied it from my reddit post, and kept adding to it as time went on. Some crackpot theories in here I guess, but might make for interesting discussion. I wholly agree with you on azathanai being aspected, and possibly being responsible for the intelligent design of races. My guess on humans on this case would actually be K'rul, he's the one who cared to make magic available to everyone after all. Each of the elder races already had or will get their own...his is the only one for humans. The quote about Azathanai being aspected imo refers to possibly a primal element, and later the race which they either create, or basically act as the patron/matron of as opposed to concepts like tragedy/tyranny/failure. Some of them may represent/espouse ideals like that, but I don't think those are their actual "aspects"




Anyway, the copy/paste of my post agreeing with you for the most part, with some other guesses and details.




"

This reply was in response to another poster stating that he believed that the elder warrens stemmed from K'rul's gift as well. I understand it differently.

My post is as follows.

""I may be misreading, but the way I'm reading the Kharkanas trilogy, then power of the elder warrens basically stems from each races patron Azathanai, it just so happens that some of them are only granting that gift (Draconus and T'Riss) around the same time that K'rul is doing the same for everyone as opposed to a specific race. For example, the sorcery of Kurald Galain became accessible when Draconus gifted the Terondai to MD/The Tiste. Liosan came after T'Riss blessed Syntara. The Imass's magic stems from Olar Ethil "appearing to them in the flames" The only ones of the elder warrens that don't have what is basically spelled out of a patron Azathani are Akarast Korvlain and Omtose Phellack. If I had to make a guess based on what we've seen, Grizzin Farl is the source of Akarast Korvlain as he basically states that the Forkrul worship him as a god of justice after he slaughtered a bunch of them. (Which would also explain his absence in the main series, as it is stated they killed their god...if it was him it would make sense.) Not to mention it's implied that Kilmandaros is his wife...the other Azathanai associated with them(in addition to Sechul Lath) Leaving only Omtose Phellack as one with an explanation. While I don't really have anything to back it up, I'm guessing it will ultimately be revealed that Gothos is an Azathanai. Considering other "elder gods"/Azathanai children (Envy, Spite, Sechul Lath etc), this would also make sense as to why Icarium holds the power he does, and why Raest was so powerful even for a Jaghut Tyrant.")"

The "theory" parts I wanted to discuss, are my guesses on the "patrons" of Akrast Korvlain and Omtose Phellack at the end of the post (This is of course making the assumption that I'm even correct in that the power of elder warrens stemming from the Azathanai that choses to basically represent that race). My theory on Akrast has some real basis I think, Omtose is more of a leap, but still has at least some plausibility just based on what we know of Gothos and actual confirmed Azathanai. Look at some of the feats that are attributed to him, the "freezing" of Lethar for example. Why would an Azathanai (Mael in this case) go to a regular Jaghut for this feat of sorcery. How can that jaghut even have the power to do something like that if he IS a regular jaghut. It's so far beyond the scope of anything we see from non "elder gods" imo. Not to mention his association with the Azath itself.

I also didn't even mention in the post that the K'Chain Che Malle have a "patron" Azathanai in Skillen Droe.

ETAA: I did add a little more to the reply before posting. Excuse me if this post seems disjointed. It's been written in multiple parts a few seconds at a time while I shouldn't necessarily be working on a reddit post lol.

ETA: I did forget the elder warren of Emurlahn. We haven't gotten that far in the Kharkanas trilogy, but A) We know it's coming, the pieces are in place already as of fall of light. My guess on the Azathanai patron of primordial shadow? Edgewalker.

In essence:

Kurald Galain (Dark) - Andii - Draconus

Kurald Liosan (Light) - Liosan - T'Riss (though this one kind of confuses me considering she is the Queen of

Dreams, she still bestows light upon Syntara)

Kurald Emurhlan (Shadow) -Edur - Edgewalker (Maybe? =D)

Tellann -Imass/Dogrunners- Olar Ethil

Omtose Phellack - Jaghut - Gothos (maybe again?)

Akarast Korvlain - Forkrulan - Grizzin Farl (maybe x3? or a combination of him/Kilmandaros, who is also apparently the mother of Thel Akai/Teblor/Toblakai. Possible that she is the matron of those races, with Farl being of the Forkrulan still, with Sechul Lath being the child of those two hence why he's basically a Forkrul Assail)

Unnamed Che Malle warren- K'Chain Che Malle - Skillen Droe

Starvald Demelain - Eleint - Tiam (whole different ball game)

If I missed something feel free to let me know, but I think that covers all of the elder races and warrens. We know for a fact that some Azathanai live among and take the form of a specific race. The fact that their elder warrens power stems from those beings is my theory. As well as the identity of some of them. "

This post has been edited by Followthehollow: 27 May 2016 - 04:10 PM

[worry]

Crackpot theories are always welcome! Being thoughtful and having fun are more important than being right.

The big ? in your theory is of course humans, who haven't appeared on screen at all, and who may or may not even exist at this point. I tend to think they don't yet, because I don't think they will get K'rul's gift just yet. And that's simply because we know they need a reason to establish blood ritual to Elder Gods in order to access Elder magic. Why would they bother, if human warrens are established around the same time? That's why I tend to think Errastas largely succeeds, or at least K'rul is forced to compromise with him. Master of the Tiles, shaping the Elder Warrens as literal separate spaces, etc.

I don't think any of this contradicts your Azathanai/Warren connections though. The word "patron" might not apply, as Cotillion draws a distinction between patron gods and other gods in House of Chains: "I'm not a god in the traditional fashion, I'm a patron. Patrons have responsibilities." And the gods on this world are notoriously irresponsible. Excited to see how all this plays out regardless!

All that said I'm not sure my take adequately explains why K'rul is seeking the dragons at this point in time.

[worry]

Here's a crackpot theory: the moon that Apsal'ara steals is the one hanging around Old Man (Moon)'s head. It's not a veiled/poetic reference to her adventures in Moon's Spawn.

This post has been edited by worry: 27 May 2016 - 10:13 PM

[Adaephon Ben Delat]

fatbaldbloke, on 05 April 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

New to the board, just finished rereading FoD at the weekend and the locked 'temple' at House Dracons intrigues me, and I'm wondering if there is some link to Quick Ben's dialogue at the Spar of Andii?

Sand hears someone moving around in there. Someone imprisoned perhaps and someone too large to be one of the three sisters. Later on in the book when Draconus leaves Arathan to head back with his gift for MD we see his steed Calleras (think that's the right name) starting to change.

When Ben speaks at the Spar he mentions of his Father that "If he'd wanted blind obedience, he should have kept me chained" and seems to summon a mount out of darkness that seems very similar to Calleras to me (mind you I suppose all sodding great horses that are an apparition of night resemble one another to an extent)

Every time I read one of these books I seem to end up with more questions.

more proof that Korya and Quick Ben are the same is in FoL when she asked Haut if she'll live forever and Haut said yes and also mentioned that she had enough in her for twelve lifetimes or more. So I believe QB could be an incarnate of sorts of Korya. With her use of dolls, acorns and QB's slightly feminine features(long fingers) I believe there's definitely a connection.

The speech at the Spar of andii also suggests Arathan might be a part.

I have a theory:
it was mentioned that she's empty. what if Arathan was the first to go in her making him the single soul that later adds the ones from the desert. because at that time it is assumed there was a soul already in him before he added the eleven others

[koehkont]

Weird theory based on mostly nothing: I have a feeling that Yvis will turn out to be Ruthan Gudd. Yes, that means he is not dead, maybe he escaped with Draconus when he fled the battle. At some point there is a scene where he goes with his hand through his beard and I thought I remembered that Gudd did the same in MBotF. Another thing for me is the thing Pelk says about him with respect to finding love. He has a strong connection to Skannarow? in MBotF and I feel that he changed his personality, that he was sort of given a second chance now by Draconus. The final thing is that I believe he was afraid that Draconus might recognize him in DoD or TCG.

[Adaephon Ben Delat]

Followthehollow, on 27 May 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

Siergiej, on 23 May 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

Quote

Humans in the world would also contradict the whole Dogerunners/Imass evolving into Humans, Barghasts, Moranth. But we have now an alternative explanation for the Barghast and a much older origin. By the way, are the dogrunners the ancestors of the Imass or the Imass itself? It would be strange if the Imass already knew that the Jaghut are no gods.

With what we've learned from K'rul and Vix, we can probably assume that evolution is not the dominant force in the emergence of new species in the Malazan world. Certainly not the sentient ones. It's more like 'intelligent design' And Kallor might even be the Azathanai who created humans. I'm reaching here, but Azathanai are aspected (I think Envy and Spite say that in FoD) and some aspects can be quite odd, e.g. Grizzin Farl who is the Protector of Nothing so probably aspected to failure or tragedy. So what if Kallor's aspect is tyranny? I'm reaching here, but it sort of makes sense.

And as for Imass/Dogrunners being aware of Jaghut shenanigans, I think it's only some individuals that have realized this. Similar to how some Tiste discovered that Draconus is an Azathanai, but for most he's still a weird-ass despicable highborn.

I actually just posted a rambling pile of theories on reddit, and came here to register and post it as well, and it response to your post looks like the best place for it. excuse the formatting as I copied it from my reddit post, and kept adding to it as time went on. Some crackpot theories in here I guess, but might make for interesting discussion. I wholly agree with you on azathanai being aspected, and possibly being responsible for the intelligent design of races. My guess on humans on this case would actually be K'rul, he's the one who cared to make magic available to everyone after all. Each of the elder races already had or will get their own...his is the only one for humans. The quote about Azathanai being aspected imo refers to possibly a primal element, and later the race which they either create, or basically act as the patron/matron of as opposed to concepts like tragedy/tyranny/failure. Some of them may represent/espouse ideals like that, but I don't think those are their actual "aspects"




Anyway, the copy/paste of my post agreeing with you for the most part, with some other guesses and details.




"

This reply was in response to another poster stating that he believed that the elder warrens stemmed from K'rul's gift as well. I understand it differently.

My post is as follows.

""I may be misreading, but the way I'm reading the Kharkanas trilogy, then power of the elder warrens basically stems from each races patron Azathanai, it just so happens that some of them are only granting that gift (Draconus and T'Riss) around the same time that K'rul is doing the same for everyone as opposed to a specific race. For example, the sorcery of Kurald Galain became accessible when Draconus gifted the Terondai to MD/The Tiste. Liosan came after T'Riss blessed Syntara. The Imass's magic stems from Olar Ethil "appearing to them in the flames" The only ones of the elder warrens that don't have what is basically spelled out of a patron Azathani are Akarast Korvlain and Omtose Phellack. If I had to make a guess based on what we've seen, Grizzin Farl is the source of Akarast Korvlain as he basically states that the Forkrul worship him as a god of justice after he slaughtered a bunch of them. (Which would also explain his absence in the main series, as it is stated they killed their god...if it was him it would make sense.) Not to mention it's implied that Kilmandaros is his wife...the other Azathanai associated with them(in addition to Sechul Lath) Leaving only Omtose Phellack as one with an explanation. While I don't really have anything to back it up, I'm guessing it will ultimately be revealed that Gothos is an Azathanai. Considering other "elder gods"/Azathanai children (Envy, Spite, Sechul Lath etc), this would also make sense as to why Icarium holds the power he does, and why Raest was so powerful even for a Jaghut Tyrant.")"

The "theory" parts I wanted to discuss, are my guesses on the "patrons" of Akrast Korvlain and Omtose Phellack at the end of the post (This is of course making the assumption that I'm even correct in that the power of elder warrens stemming from the Azathanai that choses to basically represent that race). My theory on Akrast has some real basis I think, Omtose is more of a leap, but still has at least some plausibility just based on what we know of Gothos and actual confirmed Azathanai. Look at some of the feats that are attributed to him, the "freezing" of Lethar for example. Why would an Azathanai (Mael in this case) go to a regular Jaghut for this feat of sorcery. How can that jaghut even have the power to do something like that if he IS a regular jaghut. It's so far beyond the scope of anything we see from non "elder gods" imo. Not to mention his association with the Azath itself.

I also didn't even mention in the post that the K'Chain Che Malle have a "patron" Azathanai in Skillen Droe.

ETAA: I did add a little more to the reply before posting. Excuse me if this post seems disjointed. It's been written in multiple parts a few seconds at a time while I shouldn't necessarily be working on a reddit post lol.

ETA: I did forget the elder warren of Emurlahn. We haven't gotten that far in the Kharkanas trilogy, but A) We know it's coming, the pieces are in place already as of fall of light. My guess on the Azathanai patron of primordial shadow? Edgewalker.

In essence:

Kurald Galain (Dark) - Andii - Draconus

Kurald Liosan (Light) - Liosan - T'Riss (though this one kind of confuses me considering she is the Queen of

Dreams, she still bestows light upon Syntara)

Kurald Emurhlan (Shadow) -Edur - Edgewalker (Maybe? =D)

Tellann -Imass/Dogrunners- Olar Ethil

Omtose Phellack - Jaghut - Gothos (maybe again?)

Akarast Korvlain - Forkrulan - Grizzin Farl (maybe x3? or a combination of him/Kilmandaros, who is also apparently the mother of Thel Akai/Teblor/Toblakai. Possible that she is the matron of those races, with Farl being of the Forkrulan still, with Sechul Lath being the child of those two hence why he's basically a Forkrul Assail)

Unnamed Che Malle warren- K'Chain Che Malle - Skillen Droe

Starvald Demelain - Eleint - Tiam (whole different ball game)

If I missed something feel free to let me know, but I think that covers all of the elder races and warrens. We know for a fact that some Azathanai live among and take the form of a specific race. The fact that their elder warrens power stems from those beings is my theory. As well as the identity of some of them. "

Re: T'riss bestowing light while being the Queen of Dreams, Draconus did hint the light wasn't hers. It came into being at the same time he "made" Mother Dark and T'riss was more like a delivery lady in that regard. The quote was in FoL and I don't have access to mine here.

[Siergiej]

Adaephon Ben Delat, on 31 May 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

fatbaldbloke, on 05 April 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

New to the board, just finished rereading FoD at the weekend and the locked 'temple' at House Dracons intrigues me, and I'm wondering if there is some link to Quick Ben's dialogue at the Spar of Andii?

Sand hears someone moving around in there. Someone imprisoned perhaps and someone too large to be one of the three sisters. Later on in the book when Draconus leaves Arathan to head back with his gift for MD we see his steed Calleras (think that's the right name) starting to change.

When Ben speaks at the Spar he mentions of his Father that "If he'd wanted blind obedience, he should have kept me chained" and seems to summon a mount out of darkness that seems very similar to Calleras to me (mind you I suppose all sodding great horses that are an apparition of night resemble one another to an extent)

Every time I read one of these books I seem to end up with more questions.

more proof that Korya and Quick Ben are the same is in FoL when she asked Haut if she'll live forever and Haut said yes and also mentioned that she had enough in her for twelve lifetimes or more. So I believe QB could be an incarnate of sorts of Korya. With her use of dolls, acorns and QB's slightly feminine features(long fingers) I believe there's definitely a connection.

The speech at the Spar of andii also suggests Arathan might be a part.

I have a theory:
it was mentioned that she's empty. what if Arathan was the first to go in her making him the single soul that later adds the ones from the desert. because at that time it is assumed there was a soul already in him before he added the eleven others

That is mighty interesting! And I like the potential Draconus connection from fatbaldbloke, really interesting find. What if Korya absorbs a part of Draconus' finnest? That horse QB summons really looks like something Draconus would do and QB's reluctance to being surveyed by Rake in Memories of Ice would make more sense now.

[Nevyn]

Adaephon Ben Delat, on 01 June 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Re: T'riss bestowing light while being the Queen of Dreams, Draconus did hint the light wasn't hers. It came into being at the same time he "made" Mother Dark and T'riss was more like a delivery lady in that regard. The quote was in FoL and I don't have access to mine here.

They also mention that she craves balance in things. She brought about the light as an answer to what Draconus did.

Likewise, Brood thought that if he helped Rake in the final battle, T'riss may have opposed him.

[SiriusL]

Siergiej, on 01 June 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

Adaephon Ben Delat, on 31 May 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

fatbaldbloke, on 05 April 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

New to the board, just finished rereading FoD at the weekend and the locked 'temple' at House Dracons intrigues me, and I'm wondering if there is some link to Quick Ben's dialogue at the Spar of Andii?

Sand hears someone moving around in there. Someone imprisoned perhaps and someone too large to be one of the three sisters. Later on in the book when Draconus leaves Arathan to head back with his gift for MD we see his steed Calleras (think that's the right name) starting to change.

When Ben speaks at the Spar he mentions of his Father that "If he'd wanted blind obedience, he should have kept me chained" and seems to summon a mount out of darkness that seems very similar to Calleras to me (mind you I suppose all sodding great horses that are an apparition of night resemble one another to an extent)

Every time I read one of these books I seem to end up with more questions.

more proof that Korya and Quick Ben are the same is in FoL when she asked Haut if she'll live forever and Haut said yes and also mentioned that she had enough in her for twelve lifetimes or more. So I believe QB could be an incarnate of sorts of Korya. With her use of dolls, acorns and QB's slightly feminine features(long fingers) I believe there's definitely a connection.

The speech at the Spar of andii also suggests Arathan might be a part.

I have a theory:
it was mentioned that she's empty. what if Arathan was the first to go in her making him the single soul that later adds the ones from the desert. because at that time it is assumed there was a soul already in him before he added the eleven others

That is mighty interesting! And I like the potential Draconus connection from fatbaldbloke, really interesting find. What if Korya absorbs a part of Draconus' finnest? That horse QB summons really looks like something Draconus would do and QB's reluctance to being surveyed by Rake in Memories of Ice would make more sense now.

Reading this made me wonder...what if the Finnest in the tower is actually Arathan's? After all, we don't see Arathan with much magic, as opposed to his half-sisters. Maybe Draconus saved off some or all of the boy's power into a Finnest to be given to him later. As usual, that got screwed up thanks to the twins/triplets.

What was the final disposition of that Finnest, anyway? There's no way it died in the fire.

This post has been edited by SiriusL: 06 June 2016 - 07:33 PM

[Kasig]

I think it's pretty safe to assume the power housed in that chamber was related to Draconus directly as he states that he is incomplete and both Envy and Spite feel their father when referring to it. Also the reason for Arathan's less than overwhelming magical prowess so far (at least an obvious kind of prowess) might be that perhaps only his father was Azathanai, unlike with the three daughters. In FoD Draconus tells Arathan that his mother is not powerful so he must be sent away for his safety.

Although, in my head at least, Arathan's mother feels like an Azathanai in her own right. I think she's ice aspected, somehow connected to the misterious Stormriders we meet way later in the Malazan era. Ruthan Gudd's comment when he uses his sword, in saying that

Quote

she answers - as she has never answered before

I believe, refers to her as well. So....aspected with the walking on water/ice thing, guiding or at least invovled with a distinct race and longevity. Then again, maybe it's just my wishful thinking that connected some dots that did not fully belong together, and she is just similar to the above mention Ruthan Gudd, an Elder, but not an Elder God.