[Abyss]

Hocknose, on 14 March 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

Abyss, on 14 March 2016 - 04:27 AM, said:

BEST MORE GIVE ME MORE!: How Ryllandaras goes from coherent soletaken manbeast to ravening kill machine AND d'ivers... Oh yeah, I want that story. I want it bad. And I suspect Ho has something to do with it. A lot of something.

I was under the impression that he was already D'ivers at this point and the Ryl we see in this is the one part that was separated. There is a line in the book where I think Silk asks why Ho is so interested in Ryl and the answer is something along the likes that they are similar, as Ho being a human d'ivers who has seperated one of his forms and Ryl doing the same thing...

I may be wrong...

In RCG he was a raving killing machine, didn't speak, wiped out whole armies, a pretty striking contrast to the lucid, all-about-the-love killing machine in DL who could be chased by the (pre-Vow) Crimson Guard and caught by five mages. Even the description in RCG suggested a bigger, more hulking Ryl, while the d'ivers Ryl in DG and HoC was lucid.


I assumed Silk`s comment related to Ryl being an unusual soletaken (all the others have been either human form or animal, not in-between like Ryl) and Ho having made himself into a modified form of soletaken.

[Giantblaze]

Abyss, on 14 March 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

Hocknose, on 14 March 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

Abyss, on 14 March 2016 - 04:27 AM, said:

BEST MORE GIVE ME MORE!: How Ryllandaras goes from coherent soletaken manbeast to ravening kill machine AND d'ivers... Oh yeah, I want that story. I want it bad. And I suspect Ho has something to do with it. A lot of something.

I was under the impression that he was already D'ivers at this point and the Ryl we see in this is the one part that was separated. There is a line in the book where I think Silk asks why Ho is so interested in Ryl and the answer is something along the likes that they are similar, as Ho being a human d'ivers who has seperated one of his forms and Ryl doing the same thing...

I may be wrong...

In RCG he was a raving killing machine, didn't speak, wiped out whole armies, a pretty striking contrast to the lucid, all-about-the-love killing machine in DL who could be chased by the (pre-Vow) Crimson Guard and caught by five mages. Even the description in RCG suggested a bigger, more hulking Ryl, while the d'ivers Ryl in DG and HoC was lucid.


I assumed Silk`s comment related to Ryl being an unusual soletaken (all the others have been either human form or animal, not in-between like Ryl) and Ho having made himself into a modified form of soletaken.

If I had to make a guess about why I would say the reason he is just a killing machine later is because his love was killed so he just snapped, but I might be proven wrong in one of the next too books.

This post has been edited by Giantblaze: 15 March 2016 - 03:05 AM

[Abyss]

Giantblaze, on 14 March 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:

Abyss, on 14 March 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

Hocknose, on 14 March 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

Abyss, on 14 March 2016 - 04:27 AM, said:

BEST MORE GIVE ME MORE!: How Ryllandaras goes from coherent soletaken manbeast to ravening kill machine AND d'ivers... Oh yeah, I want that story. I want it bad. And I suspect Ho has something to do with it. A lot of something.

I was under the impression that he was already D'ivers at this point and the Ryl we see in this is the one part that was separated. There is a line in the book where I think Silk asks why Ho is so interested in Ryl and the answer is something along the likes that they are similar, as Ho being a human d'ivers who has seperated one of his forms and Ryl doing the same thing...

I may be wrong...

In RCG he was a raving killing machine, didn't speak, wiped out whole armies, a pretty striking contrast to the lucid, all-about-the-love killing machine in DL who could be chased by the (pre-Vow) Crimson Guard and caught by five mages. Even the description in RCG suggested a bigger, more hulking Ryl, while the d'ivers Ryl in DG and HoC was lucid.


I assumed Silk`s comment related to Ryl being an unusual soletaken (all the others have been either human form or animal, not in-between like Ryl) and Ho having made himself into a modified form of soletaken.

If I had to make a guess about why I would say the reason he is just a killing machine later is because his love was killed so he just snapped, but I might be proven wrong in one of the next too books.

Spossible, but there's still that d'ivers running around in the MBFs.

[QuickTidal]

So I'm about 5 pages away from finishing (don't you hate it when your transit ride in the morning to work doens't give you QUITE enough time to finish the last few pages of a book?)...but here are some thoughts I've had.

So...I though I'd mentions some of my fave bits, which I'm sure line up with some other people's fave bits.

- Literally ANY time that Dorin (Dancer), Wu (Kellanved) are on screen together, it is utter, glorious fucking GOLD. Rock solid gold banter. Adding Dassem into the mix was just the cream on top.

- I was not initially expecting Shalmanat to be a Liosan, and her full unveiling after the Kanese froze the river (employing Omtose Phellack) was nothing short of awesome. Also, have we seen the columns of white fire that swept over the city before in any use of Thryllan in any of the previous books? I'm trying to remember.

- Reading about Silk, Smokey, and everyone else makes me think I need to revisit RotCG again...which I may do after Steve's new book drops (I plan on re-reading FoD before that comes out too).

- Abyss is right, that opening chapter is pretty fucking phenomenal, and a great distillation of the relationship between Dancer and Kell later on.

- Is Sister Night's presence just to show us that the Azath are in the mix as Shadow is rediscovered? Her plotline seemed more of a "watch and see".

- Nightchill! Awwww, why did seeing her make me sad?

- Baudin (Elder?)! Such a small little scene, but so full of awesome.

- So it SEEMS like the Talon and then the eventual Claw are based around this desire from others for Dancer to make assassins similar to the Nightblades?

- I wasn't fond of Pung's storyline, but he saw a much more fitting end than Dorin just killing him, so I liked that bit.

- The whole "What do we do next?" and "Unta"..."Oh, but then we'd have to start all over again." made me laugh out loud.



So far this is EASILY, EASILY my fave ICE novel. I have a great love for ROTCG and NoK, but this is just everything I love about ICE's books and nothing I don't. He's really achieved something special here.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 16 March 2016 - 03:20 PM
Reason for edit: no need for spoiler blocks here

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 16 March 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

So I'm about 5 pages away from finishing (don't you hate it when your transit ride in the morning to work doens't give you QUITE enough time to finish the last few pages of a book?)...but here are some thoughts I've had.

So...I though I'd mentions some of my fave bits, which I'm sure line up with some other people's fave bits.

- Literally ANY time that Dorin (Dancer), Wu (Kellanved) are on screen together, it is utter, glorious fucking GOLD. Rock solid gold banter. Adding Dassem into the mix was just the cream on top.

- I was not initially expecting Shalmanat to be a Liosan, and her full unveiling after the Kanese froze the river (employing Omtose Phellack) was nothing short of awesome. Also, have we seen the columns of white fire that swept over the city before in any use of Thryllan in any of the previous books? I'm trying to remember.

- Reading about Silk, Smokey, and everyone else makes me think I need to revisit RotCG again...which I may do after Steve's new book drops (I plan on re-reading FoD before that comes out too).

- Abyss is right, that opening chapter is pretty fucking phenomenal, and a great distillation of the relationship between Dancer and Kell later on.

- Is Sister Night's presence just to show us that the Azath are in the mix as Shadow is rediscovered? Her plotline seemed more of a "watch and see".

- Nightchill! Awwww, why did seeing her make me sad?

- Baudin! Such a small little scene, but so full of awesome.

- So it SEEMS like the Talon and then the eventual Claw are based around this desire from others for Dancer to make assassins similar to the Nightblades?

- I wasn't fond of Pung's storyline, but he saw a much more fitting end than Dorin just killing him, so I liked that bit.

- The whole "What do we do next?" and "Unta"..."Oh, but then we'd have to start all over again." made me laugh out loud.



So far this is EASILY, EASILY my fave ICE novel. I have a great love for ROTCG and NoK, but this is just everything I love about ICE's books and nothing I don't. He's really achieved something special here.

Agreed on all points. I don't think we have ever seen Thyrrlan employed like that anywhere. I really hope we get to find out why Nightchill eventually joined he Malazan Empire

[Aptorian]

Question is if Nightchill joined the Malazan Army or if Kel and Dancer just convinced her to give a helping hand once in a while. Like when for example a giant floating fortress was being a nuissance. I suspect when ever Nightchill has been involved it had some kind of powerful significance. We know Nightchill was at Pale to try and get Dragnipur. I doubt she gave a shit about some free cities and their military opposition. I couldn't see her taking orders from Kelanved or Dancer.

This post has been edited by Apt: 16 March 2016 - 01:11 PM

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 16 March 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

... I don't think we have ever seen Thyrrlan employed like that anywhere.

Closest I can think of was Blood n Bone where the Mages tried to redirect a jade chunk at the end, and that may have been 'just' High Thyr.

Andorion, on 16 March 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

I really hope we get to find out why Nightchill eventually joined he Malazan Empire

Apt, on 16 March 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

Question is if Nightchill joined the Malazan Army or if Kel and Dancer just convinced her to give a helping hand once in a while. Like when for example a giant floating fortress was being a nuissance. I suspect when ever Nightchill has been involved it had some kind of powerful significance. We know Nightchill was at Pale to try and get Dragnipur. I doubt she gave a shit about some free cities and their military opposition. I couldn't see her taking orders from Kelanved or Dancer.

No doubt she joined up for her own reasons and agenda.

There`s an open question as to whether Kel and Dancer always knew exactly who she was. They knew she was a powerful mage with an agenda... there`s a discussion in MoI about Akaronys that confirms that, but that she was Elder God/Azathanii, I don't think we know. Paran figured it out later in MoI when he was communicating with Silverfox's various voices.

[Nevyn]

I assume Nightchill joining the empire will have something to do with the will of the Azath that she has been trying to discern (which presumably leads to the eventual ascendancy of Dancer and Kellanved). Based on her advising Dancer somewhat in this book you can already kind of see that she has her eyes on their progress. Could also have something to do with meeting Bellurdan depending on where his loyalties lie.

[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 16 March 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

I assume Nightchill joining the empire will have something to do with the will of the Azath that she has been trying to discern (which presumably leads to the eventual ascendancy of Dancer and Kellanved). Based on her advising Dancer somewhat in this book you can already kind of see that she has her eyes on their progress. Could also have something to do with meeting Bellurdan depending on where his loyalties lie.

All this talk about the Azath makes me wonder how long a game were they playing? Did Kell and Dancer strike a dubious alliance, or did they subvert the game?

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 16 March 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 16 March 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

I assume Nightchill joining the empire will have something to do with the will of the Azath that she has been trying to discern (which presumably leads to the eventual ascendancy of Dancer and Kellanved). Based on her advising Dancer somewhat in this book you can already kind of see that she has her eyes on their progress. Could also have something to do with meeting Bellurdan depending on where his loyalties lie.

All this talk about the Azath makes me wonder how long a game were they playing? Did Kell and Dancer strike a dubious alliance, or did they subvert the game?

Bellurdan was a companion she acquired at either Krul or Draconus' suggestion in the MoI prologue (assuming he was the first one, there could have been more before him). No bigger role we're aware of other than the point that he may have been her agent, but he seemed loyal to Tayschrenn when he confronted Silverfox in GotM.

I forget what book it was, possibly DG or TB, where Shadowthrone monologues that he thinks he has a deal with the Azath but isn't actually sure since they never answer him.

Also, in DL Nightchill refs to the Azath as 'cousins'

[Giantblaze]

Abyss, on 16 March 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

Andorion, on 16 March 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 16 March 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

I assume Nightchill joining the empire will have something to do with the will of the Azath that she has been trying to discern (which presumably leads to the eventual ascendancy of Dancer and Kellanved). Based on her advising Dancer somewhat in this book you can already kind of see that she has her eyes on their progress. Could also have something to do with meeting Bellurdan depending on where his loyalties lie.

All this talk about the Azath makes me wonder how long a game were they playing? Did Kell and Dancer strike a dubious alliance, or did they subvert the game?

Bellurdan was a companion she acquired at either Krul or Draconus' suggestion in the MoI prologue (assuming he was the first one, there could have been more before him). No bigger role we're aware of other than the point that he may have been her agent, but he seemed loyal to Tayschrenn when he confronted Silverfox in GotM.

I forget what book it was, possibly DG or TB, where Shadowthrone monologues that he thinks he has a deal with the Azath but isn't actually sure since they never answer him.

Also, in DL Nightchill refs to the Azath as 'cousins'

I feel like between this Trilogy and the Kharkanas Trilogy we are going to learn a lot more about the Azath houses.

[Abyss]

Giantblaze, on 17 March 2016 - 04:10 AM, said:

Abyss, on 16 March 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

Andorion, on 16 March 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 16 March 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

I assume Nightchill joining the empire will have something to do with the will of the Azath that she has been trying to discern (which presumably leads to the eventual ascendancy of Dancer and Kellanved). Based on her advising Dancer somewhat in this book you can already kind of see that she has her eyes on their progress. Could also have something to do with meeting Bellurdan depending on where his loyalties lie.

All this talk about the Azath makes me wonder how long a game were they playing? Did Kell and Dancer strike a dubious alliance, or did they subvert the game?

Bellurdan was a companion she acquired at either Krul or Draconus' suggestion in the MoI prologue (assuming he was the first one, there could have been more before him). No bigger role we're aware of other than the point that he may have been her agent, but he seemed loyal to Tayschrenn when he confronted Silverfox in GotM.

I forget what book it was, possibly DG or TB, where Shadowthrone monologues that he thinks he has a deal with the Azath but isn't actually sure since they never answer him.

Also, in DL Nightchill refs to the Azath as 'cousins'

I feel like between this Trilogy and the Kharkanas Trilogy we are going to learn a lot more about the Azath houses.

Maybe. That or just complexity things more. In a good way.

[Tremolo]

I think I just had a malazangasm. Great book.

And thank you Abyss for making yet another engaging thread with good observations and interesting discussions. Your threads drag me back to the forum every time there is a new book to be read.

[cauthon]

It was pretty frakking awesome.

[worry]

So it was the Azath being called 'cousins'? I couldn't quite parse that, but that's interesting.

K'rul seemingly being the epicenter of all this. Makes total sense that K'rul, even above Rake and ST, is the prime mover of the big changes. Well at least among the non-Azath. But it gives his long absence even more weight, as well as his return to the scene in GotM. Zero mentions of the Crippled God, though. I'm not counting on seeing the last Chaining in this trilogy, but I'm finding the mystery of where all the connective tissue lies to be the most intriguing. The Old Guard member I'm most looking forward to seeing is Tays, and perhaps we'll see his own ambitions develop (they aren't exactly far below Kel's, utlimately, and they have obvious links to K'rul). Anyway, it also explains why K'rul would even allow use of the Imperial Warren to this pair in particular.

That female assassin that Ragman uses KG to stop in RotCG -- she remains a mystery, but who knows if that will see explanation?

[Aptorian]

I think the talk of Cousins refers to the Nameless Ones or what ever entity/entities the Nameless Ones serve. They work "for" the Azath or what ever lies behind the gathering we saw in Bonehunters.

[Nevyn]

Zoolanderis Derake, on 24 March 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

So it was the Azath being called 'cousins'? I couldn't quite parse that, but that's interesting.

That was how I interpreted it.


Putting very pieces together, from the prologue, Gothos seems to think some group of beings have set Wu and Dorin on some sort of path (and that they have done it with others before). Gothos speaks to them, refererring to them as Azatheni or something like that (slight variant from FoD), and they speak back through an armored helm. As Apt pointed out elsewhere, we have had a talking suit of armor before in Tremerlor, and the implication back then seemed to be it was the house talking.

Later, Nightchill seems to be investigating the very same thing Gothos commented on and says to K'Rul and the Errant that it is something their "cousins" are doing.

Quote

Anyway, it also explains why K'rul would even allow use of the Imperial Warren to this pair in particular.

Anyone can access the imperial warren. Just a matter of finding it, which presumably Wu will do. Unlike other warrens it is not really a source of power, simply a path for travel.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 24 March 2016 - 02:03 PM

[worry]

How do you know that to be true in this time period?

[Nevyn]

Zoolanderis Derake, on 24 March 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

How do you know that to be true in this time period?

Why did you presume it not to be true? Why did you presume it requires K'rul's permission? Has there ever been any instance with any warren where K'rul had to grant access?

In fact, the only warrens to have access denied in any meaningful way seem to have been Darkness (thanks to MD and Draconus), Shadow (thanks to Rake, Klimandaros, Osserc and Edgewalker, who this book says Rake assigned as the protector/sentry for it), and Starvald Demelain.

And throughout the series, it is used on a whim by all manner of mages. Access only ever becomes a problem when Topper goes into there and starts knocking off anyone trying to use it in RotCG.

[worry]

Because it was created especially to let Jacuruku heal and was never meant for anything else like the other Warrens. How would anyone even know about it unless K'rul wanted them to? Permission has nothing to do with it really. I'm thinking it's an essentially dormant warren until K'rul's like "You know what, guys? Now that you have an empire and all, here's this place you can use to secret around the continent." And Kel and Dancer are like "Wow awesome. I think we'll call it the Imperial Warren now that it has the context of helping our empire, and not because it has always been called that for no particular reason by its countless users over the millennia who arbitrarily thought the word "imperial" suited an ashen wasteland."

Spoiler

I'm aware that it might be called the Imperial Warren due to Kallor's Empire -- though of course he's the High King, not the High Emperor. And maybe there's evidence it's been used pre-Malazan, and there's text evidence of this. I just like my idea better.