[Aptorian]

Do you mean "the least book of the fallen" so far? Earlier Esslemont books aped Eriksons prose and philosophical style way more than this book. This is the first book since Night of Knives were Esslemont slimmed down the roster of characters, the multiple POVs and focused his narrative on the actual events instead of what ever depressing ramblings were bouncing around inside surprisingly brilliant soldier nr 375s head at that moment.

[Abyss]

Morgoth, on 08 March 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

Now that you've read the book, is this the central spoiler thread?

There really isn't one thread, but you're all good to post whatever you like here.

[Nevyn]

Apt, on 08 March 2016 - 08:50 PM, said:

Do you mean "the least book of the fallen" so far? Earlier Esslemont books aped Eriksons prose and philosophical style way more than this book. This is the first book since Night of Knives were Esslemont slimmed down the roster of characters, the multiple POVs and focused his narrative on the actual events instead of what ever depressing ramblings were bouncing around inside surprisingly brilliant soldier nr 375s head at that moment.

I will say that it is the most like SE in terms of having hefty helpings of humour built in. Previous ICE books have suffered from a general lack in that area, I've found.

As well as having a climax that is, well, climactic.

But yeah, in terms of overall style, very different

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 08 March 2016 - 09:19 PM

[champ]

I think with this book ICE has finally found his own voice rather than trying to mold a SE epic. He's shown flashes of great writing in the previous works, he's had the humour, great action scenes and malazantastic entertainment but ultimately they've fallen flat with too much narrative going nowhere and endings that didn't pay off, for me.

With this though he's nailed it, he's took what worked, stream lined it and thrown it all together to create a great read that ends well and makes me want to read more. He did this for me with NoK and RotCG and hopefully it is a continued return to form.

I loved Silks commentary at the end speaking of Dancer and Wu where he is shaking his head in wonder at the audacity of the two, after tCG you just have to sit back and appreciate where they ended up...

This post has been edited by champ: 08 March 2016 - 09:40 PM

[Giantblaze]

I really enjoyed this book, it was interesting to see them before they became gods and what not. I was kind of surprised that Dancer doesn't know the shadow dance at this point in time, before this I thought he was trained in that originally. I wonder where the next book will take place.

[Iskaral Pust's Mule]

So I really liked the book, but I have just one question (been a while since I read the main series or any of ICE's books, but I have read them all including FoD and Assail).

Dancer was a mage before he Ascended right, because he clearly is not int his book? He didn't gain access to his warren that late right? So I assume this series will show him starting to learn to use Shadow?

[Abyss]

Morgoth, on 08 March 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

... seeing ICE's portrayal of a young Kellanvend, I have to wonder if Iskaral Pust is a human aspect of Shadowthrone. The behaviour of the two is so very similar, and there was always mystery tied to Pust regarding his power and knowledge.

Pust being a priest of the shadow cult (the Shadowthrone iteration, not any of the earlier ones), all always figured it was just a situation of like attracting like. It does seem that Pust has a considerable level of power and influence all things considered, so his position as the Mage of HHS may be closer to that of a heavily invested Destriant, well hidden so the vulnerability isnt obvious.

champ, on 08 March 2016 - 03:54 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 08 March 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 04 March 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

Andorion, on 04 March 2016 - 04:04 AM, said:

That entire sequence reminded me of Gotm and the assassin war in Darujhistan

That is clearly Edgewalker and I think KE has been shattered for a long time. Remember that flashback sequence when Rake and Kili went into a warren to do some dragonslaying?I think that was it

Yeah, there is another mention in the book that helps clarify this, but I am struggling to remember whether it was before or after Abyss' reading point, so I can't say more yet.

But yes, very clearly going to be Edgewalker, and the warren is shattered

Now I guess I can more safely qualify.

I think it was in the section where the Thelomen mage is telling the story to Ho and Silk (not 100% on that). He mentions those involved in closing off Emurlahn after the war and the shattering (Kilmandaros, etc), and mentions that Rake set a guardian on the borders of the sealed off warren.

Didn't mention it explicitly before as I did not remember for sure if that mention was before or after the point Abyss was at in reading. But that combined with what we know from the main series pretty much confirms it is Edgewalker.

Impressive/interesting that while they have attracted hounds, K and D have managed to avoid his attention thus far. In fact, it seems like they mostly avoid his notice until they ascend, unless I am remembering NoK incorrectly. Everyone is so scared of Edgewalker, I just hope he gets to do one awesome thing somewhere in any of these books (might be in the Kharkanas series rather than this one).

The line - they set a guardian who cannot be defeated was such a tease.

Why cannot he be defeated?! Probably something to do with the fact he's a walking bag of bones but WHY?!?!?

Nevyn, on 08 March 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

You can't defeat someone who never fights you.

More or less.
It's interesting that every time we`ve seen Edgewalker become involved, he pretty much stands at the side and hints at whoever else is there until they figure out what he wants them to do.
Tho in TtH the other conspirator gods seemed to be treating him as an active participant.

But Nevyn may have nailed it... he cant be defeated because he never has to pick a fight.

Nevyn, on 08 March 2016 - 09:18 PM, said:

Apt, on 08 March 2016 - 08:50 PM, said:

Do you mean "the least book of the fallen" so far? Earlier Esslemont books aped Eriksons prose and philosophical style way more than this book. This is the first book since Night of Knives were Esslemont slimmed down the roster of characters, the multiple POVs and focused his narrative on the actual events instead of what ever depressing ramblings were bouncing around inside surprisingly brilliant soldier nr 375s head at that moment.

I will say that it is the most like SE in terms of having hefty helpings of humour built in. Previous ICE books have suffered from a general lack in that area, I've found.

As well as having a climax that is, well, climactic.

But yeah, in terms of overall style, very different

Different, but in a good way.
A lot of the best elements of NoK - the smaller scope, smaller cast, closer povs - and the 'bigger' books - Elder Gods messing about, plans within plans, that always fun Malazan element of thousands of years of backstory - are there, but ICE just seems to have hit a really effective balance with this book as a fantasy storyteller. It's.... fun, in a way his recent books would touch on intermittently.

champ, on 08 March 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

...
I loved Silks commentary at the end speaking of Dancer and Wu where he is shaking his head in wonder at the audacity of the two, after tCG you just have to sit back and appreciate where they ended up...

I really enjoyed how this book started setting out the broad strokes of KnD's eventual Empire.
It's subtle but its there and its great fun to see it.

Giantblaze, on 09 March 2016 - 04:05 AM, said:

I really enjoyed this book, it was interesting to see them before they became gods and what not. I was kind of surprised that Dancer doesn't know the shadow dance at this point in time, before this I thought he was trained in that originally. I wonder where the next book will take place.

Am guessing Malaz Island since that's where the successful takeover happens eventually, with bk 3 covering the time they spent wandering before NoK. But that`s total guesswork on my part.

Iskaral Pust, on 09 March 2016 - 09:50 PM, said:

So I really liked the book, but I have just one question (been a while since I read the main series or any of ICE's books, but I have read them all including FoD and Assail).

Dancer was a mage before he Ascended right, because he clearly is not int his book? He didn't gain access to his warren that late right? So I assume this series will show him starting to learn to use Shadow?

Dorin is pretty clearly not a Mage. I supposed he could be an unknowing talent like most of Wu's kids, but more likely he gained his powers through ongoing exposure to the warren and eventual ascension. We don't see enough of him in NoK to know whether he brought any Shadow to the party at that point.

[Nevyn]

Iskaral Pust, on 09 March 2016 - 09:50 PM, said:

So I really liked the book, but I have just one question (been a while since I read the main series or any of ICE's books, but I have read them all including FoD and Assail).

Dancer was a mage before he Ascended right, because he clearly is not int his book? He didn't gain access to his warren that late right? So I assume this series will show him starting to learn to use Shadow?

No, Dancer was never mentioned as having been a mage. Shadow dancer, yes, but so are Apsalar and Lostara Yil and neither are mages. And since they have just 'discovered' shadow, that is likely still to come.

[Abyss]

Lostarawas trained by a cult, so any power she gains by the dance comes from Cotillion himself in his Assassin God of Shadows aspectSame for Apsalar, since she was possessed by Cots, she's drawing on the same source he does... meanas, filtered thru her.
Dorin as of DL doesn't have any of that yet. It's possible he may gain some amount of power before they ascend to control the warren, so there could be a Shadow or darkness cult in his future. We know Kellanved wipes out the competing cults at some point before he and Dancer ascend, so its not unthinkable that Dorin will be involved with one.

[Iskaral Pust's Mule]

I just assumed since there was never any indication Dancer used Otataral and he was at least the equal of Cowl that he was an assassin mage similar to him, but I really have no idea.

[Abyss]

Iskaral Pust, on 10 March 2016 - 05:07 AM, said:

I just assumed since there was never any indication Dancer used Otataral and he was at least the equal of Cowl that he was an assassin mage similar to him, but I really have no idea.

The idea has come up before, but fundamentally any ref to Kel and Dancer's early days always mentioned a mage and an assassin, not two mages.
And Kalam has shown us often enough that an assassin doesn't need to be a mage to be very very good at killing. Sure it seems to be a common Claw and misc cultist assassin trait to be both, but even the Claw has doubts about that after DG's massacre. But the Toppers and Possums of Malazanland are still fairly effective.
Point being, as far as we've seen in the books to date, there is no reason for Dancer not to have not been a mage pre ascension.

[blackzoid]

Cowl always surprised me by his turn in RotCG to be an assassin-mage hybrid. Previously he was always pegged as a mage only in my mind. In fact I think Cowl is the only assassin-mage in the entire SE-ICE series (as in powerful in both disciplines). He was the Crimson Guard counterpart of both Tay And Dancer, or at least thats the impression I got from RoTCG.

Whereas even as his god aspect of Cotillion, I would not put Dancer/Cotillion as being a mage. Using specific aspects of warrens that are aspected to him sure. But not a mage. He isnt letting off "shadow fireballs" at people for example. He uses "shadow dagger" and a "shadow rope" phsyically. Though I guess thats a matter of intepretation!

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 10 March 2016 - 02:22 PM

[Nevyn]

blackzoid, on 10 March 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

In fact I think Cowl is the only assassin-mage in the entire SE-ICE series (as in powerful in both disciplines).

Powerful is relative (you are comparing him to Tayschrenn after all), but there are others.

Topper, Vorcan

[blackzoid]

Nevyn, on 10 March 2016 - 02:56 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 10 March 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

In fact I think Cowl is the only assassin-mage in the entire SE-ICE series (as in powerful in both disciplines).

Powerful is relative (you are comparing him to Tayschrenn after all), but there are others.

Topper, Vorcan

Is Topper a mage? I dont think so. He is an assassin only right?
Vorcan. She was a demon in the cabal. Also an assassin. Hmm. I am willing to compromise on her, maybe.

Unlike all the "warrior-mages" (Rake/Silchas/Osserc etc), a powerful assassin-mage combo seems rare. Even Surly, a master killer by the time of her death in RotCG wasn't really a mage. And Cotillion, the god of assassins, doesnt seem very warren-manipulative as I said.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 10 March 2016 - 04:24 PM

[Aptorian]

Topper is a mage. He transports Toc through the Imperial Warren and later we see him as Ragman who seems like a crazy mage.

Regarding Dancer as a mage. One thing I find strange is that in HoC I am sure Bithal refers to Dancer as the High Priest/Leader of the Shadow Cult. How do you lead a cult of shadow as a non-mage?

[blackzoid]

Apt, on 10 March 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

Topper is a mage. He transports Toc through the Imperial Warren and later we see him as Ragman who seems like a crazy mage.

I cannot recall that offhand, but I guess I'll take your word for it. Though Kalam for example in his trips was going into and out of warrens too right?

Apt, on 10 March 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

Regarding Dancer as a mage. One thing I find strange is that in HoC I am sure Bithal refers to Dancer as the High Priest/Leader of the Shadow Cult. How do you lead a cult of shadow as a non-mage?

Well probably Dancer was fronting for Kell as being the leader of the Shadow Cult when Bithal met him. But I doubt its strictly 100% necessary for a mage to be leader of a cult/group. Don't we have Dasseem in this very book, leading the cult of Hood (unofficially). And we know he isnt a mage. All the Mortal-Swords we met in the series (Grey Helms,Grey Swords) were leaders of their groups, leaving others to be the mages.

I guess its a bit vague as to when magically aspected assassins/warriors cross the line into being full assassin-mages/warrior-mages

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 10 March 2016 - 05:40 PM

[Aptorian]

Hmm. You do have a point about there being a difference between a school of magic and a cult of worship. And yet even Dassem obviously comes with upgrades. People like Pust and Tayschren however were cult leaders and were in their own right very powerful practitioners.

And then yet again we have seen plenty of priests and priestesses, like the drunk one in DL, that have no power. The question is if there is a difference between proclaiming to be a priest and actually being a chosen representative of a god? Dassem obviously has Hoods favor. Dancer would have had what ever mojo him and Kelanved were stealing from shadow.

[Giantblaze]

Apt, on 10 March 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

Topper is a mage. He transports Toc through the Imperial Warren and later we see him as Ragman who seems like a crazy mage.

Regarding Dancer as a mage. One thing I find strange is that in HoC I am sure Bithal refers to Dancer as the High Priest/Leader of the Shadow Cult. How do you lead a cult of shadow as a non-mage?

Didn't Topper also transport Ganoes through the Imperial Warren in GotM.

[Nevyn]

blackzoid, on 10 March 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

Apt, on 10 March 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

Topper is a mage. He transports Toc through the Imperial Warren and later we see him as Ragman who seems like a crazy mage.

I cannot recall that offhand, but I guess I'll take your word for it. Though Kalam for example in his trips was going into and out of warrens too right?

When Kalam went through warrens he was enabled by QB.

Topper fetches Ganoes to see Laseen in GotM through the imperial warren.
He pops out of the warren to deliver a message to Tavore in House of Chains
He lives as ragman in the imperial warren for most of RotCG. He also seems to summon up Kurald Galain to save/preserve a female assassin he ambushes there, and he also ambushes the aforementioned Cowl via warren when Cowl tries to kill Laseen, after which they fight, and the fight I believe goes off into the warrens.

Topper is absolutely, unambiguously a mage.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 10 March 2016 - 07:34 PM

[blackzoid]

Ok I concede that one, I'd forgotten about his Kurald Galain stuff.
Topper really is the counterpart to Cowl so.