[Tsundoku]

Sounds like authors are the very embodiment of the "Single Point of Failure" idea.

They're also constrained - by their publishers no doubt, as well as fans - by "Made Yourself Indispensible".

Ugh, screw that kind of responsibility.

[Werthead]

amphibian, on 28 July 2020 - 08:11 PM, said:

Rothfuss has been increasingly open about having major depression and the effects his parents both getting cancer within a year - then dying close in time to each other, then raising two kids, then having marriage struggles etc.

Life has not been easy for him. He also has several other projects that are doing fairly well, yet take time + energy.

That does not excuse the lack of communication with his editors or the angry stuff he was/is doing. But knowing and discussing that he has (in his own words) debilitating depression does help to provide a more detailed picture of why this book is taking over a decade to get out - there's a lot going on in his head and he's the only one that can deal with it. Dealing with that and his family is more important than the book. The twitch streams may be what he's capable of for now.

I do feel for his publisher, but this is kind of the risk of the business.

To be clear, his publishers make multiple millions of dollars every single year from selling back-copies of THE NAME OF THE WIND and THE WISE MAN'S FEAR, so overall the deal has been good for them. I get their frustration that maybe they want to make the company more successful and their #1 selling author not producing more books more often is a problem, because it limits the other authors they can take on. I also suspect they paid a lot of money to Tad Williams for his MEMORY, SORROW AND THORN sequel trilogy and that's not paid off yet, and having something like a new Rothfuss would take the pressure off them financially. Most of DAW's authors are very solid, mid-listing performers, not outright success stories like Rothfuss.

Rothfuss has also had a lot of personal problems and bereavements and other problems, as has Lynch and (to a lesser degree) Martin. If he held his hands up and said, "I've been through the wringer, I can't write right now, it's going to be a while," I think a lot of fans and readers would say fair enough and give him the time and space. I think it's the very specific level of problems where he can't talk to his editor but he is capable of streaming video games several times a month, going on podcasts, doing print and video interviews and running competitions that has people bemused.

[Aptorian]

Werthead, on 29 July 2020 - 12:15 PM, said:

I think it's the very specific level of problems where he can't talk to his editor but he is capable of streaming video games several times a month, going on podcasts, doing print and video interviews and running competitions that has people bemused.

Exactly. I have no problems accepting that life sucks sometimes and writing isn't easy.

But just like with GRR Martin, that shit doesn't fly if you somehow have time and mental ressources to fuck around doing a dozen other projects.

Like, if he's in a rut and just doesn't know how to finish the trilogy, without it becoming shit or turning into 6 books, say that.

[QuickTidal]

Werthead, on 29 July 2020 - 12:15 PM, said:

I also suspect they paid a lot of money to Tad Williams for his MEMORY, SORROW AND THORN sequel trilogy and that's not paid off yet

I mean, he's three books released into the series including the novella/bridging book, and the fourth is releasing in October and he's busy writing the last novella now. That's 3.5-4 years total for delivering 5 books (3 of which are behemoths). The ROI on that is sky high compared to Rothfuss. He may be more of a "star", but Williams consistency of writing makes him a far more bankable author in the long run. "not paid off yet" is only a matter of months for Williams and DAW.

[QuickTidal]

20 Days of Sheep, on 29 July 2020 - 04:53 PM, said:

Do they really still make that much $ each year? That seems a hell of a lot.

I think multiple millions is an exaggeration...especially on the back of two books that came out nearly a decade and more ago. Yes, with talk of a movie/tv show or whatever they might boost a bit with casual readers...but I can't imagine they sell any of it at a rate that's anything north of "usual sales" for any SFF book these days...and certainly not millions in the multiple each year. I think as a series it's done 10million since the debut? But that was since 2007/2011, so even breaking that down is less than 1million per year.

So yeah, I'm sure he sells well and could even be one of their bigger authors....but he's not pulling in multiple millions per year for them in 2020 without a new book out since 2011. No way.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 28 July 2020 - 08:11 PM, said:

...
I do feel for his publisher, but this is kind of the risk of the business.

This.


Obviously not how the industry works, but any time a publisher takes a chance on a series when the series isn't finished, this can happen.
(conversely some amazingly garbage series have been published in entirety simply because the publisher paid for them and has the whole thing in hand)
We've seen it with GRRM, Jordan, and others.

Rothfuss may never finish this, but i doubt the business minds behind his publisher will ever throw up their scaly hands and say 'enough', because, well, if he ever does, they rerelease bks 1-2, market the living paperfuck out of it, and hellooooOOOoooooo money.

[Abyss]

Aptorian, on 29 July 2020 - 12:29 PM, said:

Werthead, on 29 July 2020 - 12:15 PM, said:

I think it's the very specific level of problems where he can't talk to his editor but he is capable of streaming video games several times a month, going on podcasts, doing print and video interviews and running competitions that has people bemused.

Exactly. I have no problems accepting that life sucks sometimes and writing isn't easy.

But just like with GRR Martin, that shit doesn't fly if you somehow have time and mental ressources to fuck around doing a dozen other projects.

Like, if he's in a rut and just doesn't know how to finish the trilogy, without it becoming shit or turning into 6 books, say that.

Or don't, it's not like he owes anyone an explanation. Fans don't like it, they can choose not to buy his books. Publisher can bail any time they like and accept the outcome. For that matter, Rothfuss can just say 'i'm out', same deal.

He's not really doing 'projects, is he? Playing games isn't the same and writing and editing background books for the same series a la GRRM.

QuickTidal, on 29 July 2020 - 05:03 PM, said:

20 Days of Sheep, on 29 July 2020 - 04:53 PM, said:

Do they really still make that much $ each year? That seems a hell of a lot.

I think multiple millions is an exaggeration...especially on the back of two books that came out nearly a decade and more ago. Yes, with talk of a movie/tv show or whatever they might boost a bit with casual readers...but I can't imagine they sell any of it at a rate that's anything north of "usual sales" for any SFF book these days...and certainly not millions in the multiple each year. I think as a series it's done 10million since the debut? But that was since 2007/2011, so even breaking that down is less than 1million per year.

So yeah, I'm sure he sells well and could even be one of their bigger authors....but he's not pulling in multiple millions per year for them in 2020 without a new book out since 2011. No way.

I'm sure the publisher makes decent money on the existing books and i'm sure Rothfuss is getting enough royalties to live off just fine. The TV rights probably didn't hurt but those tend to be low until the show actually gets made, depending on how good a deal the author's lawyer/agent/enforcer/assassin negotiates.

At a guess... low millions per year for the publisher... under a hundred thou per year for Rothfuss in royalties, a bit more more for foreign printings and the tv deal which coming on the heels of GoT and the hype around the WoT project was probably a solid chunk of cash one-time payment.

[Slow Ben]

Off topic, but today is the day George RR Martin said we could imprisonments him if Winds wasn’t done by this day.

https://www.google.c...ase-date/%3famp

[Abyss]

He lied.

[QuickTidal]

You know what? I've come up with an analogy for DoS.

It's THE RISE OF SKYWALKER.

Book 2 did SOME storytelling for the main thrust story, but went for like 1000 pages of bullshit tangent...

This leaves Book 3 to do ALL the heavy lifting. Basically Book 3 will need to act like Book 2 AND 3 to make sense, and to cap the story.

Which is why it makes more sense to stretch it to 4 books and come up with some in-story conceit as to why it takes more than the 3 days to tell.

But yeah, as of right now DOORS OF STONE is heading to TROS territory for being too overstuffed because there is no other way to finish it in a 3rd book when the 2nd book didn't do its job.

[QuickTidal]

Also, when he reacts like THIS to a random pizza delivery guy who recognized him and said he's a fan and asked about book 3...

https://youtu.be/N7_rtpTePLw

I mean, bro...way to treat a fan who dared to ask you about the next book in the series you wrote that he liked...like fuck off clown.

This just shows you that he should either not engage with fandom, or just leave it at "no publication date yet, sorry. Thanks for reading!"...like this isn't hard man.

[amphibian]

You are way too invested in this and reading so much into the reactions of a man who's been open about serious mental illness.

The specific ways his depression or whatever he has works is really only known to him and those closest to him. We can't assess what his feelings are about the main series, the side projects, playing video games, and dealing with fans. He's been open about how he has bouts of inappropriate anger.

Clearly what he's doing isn't resulting in books sooner rather than later, but maybe that's what he has to do in order to stay quasi functional.

I dunno about prescribing what he needs to do - because I'm not him, I'm not related to him, and it's not my business. I'm going to leave him alone, enjoy his book if it ever comes out, and just find happiness elsewhere.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 30 July 2020 - 01:39 PM, said:

You are way too invested in this and reading so much into the reactions of a man who's been open about serious mental illness.

I don't think "being a dick to a fan for no real reason" is included in the mental illness he's spoken about, which is depression. Depressed people don't often lash out, my mother is one of them.

And not only that but a minimum wage delivery driver who brought you your damned pizza while you game and stream...like fuck that. Sorry not sorry.

amphibian, on 30 July 2020 - 01:39 PM, said:

The specific ways his depression or whatever he has works is really only known to him and those closest to him.

Again, depression doesn't make you lash out. If he has something else, then I'm not to know about it, so you're quite right in that respect.

It's also not my business really...but in the same vein I DO get to weigh in on what I see. That's my prerogative as a reader/end user.

amphibian, on 30 July 2020 - 01:39 PM, said:

We can't assess what his feelings are about the main series, the side projects, playing video games, and dealing with fans. He's been open about how he has bouts of inappropriate anger.

We can't, but then he should not have sold it as a series/trilogy to not only his editor, but to us...and said it was mostly completed to boot...as Sanderson said "starting a series of books and asking people to invest in it is a sort of informal contract to see it finished in a reasonable timeframe".

But then Sanderson is the polar opposite to Rothfuss, writes like a machine, engages his fans in every step of his process, and never gets angry at questions. So perhaps that's an unfair comparison.

I DO feel the nugget of truth is "You start a book trilogy at Book 1...then your fans have every reason to expect Book 3 in a reasonable time." I don't feel like fans should feel they are "owed"...but they have chosen to buy into your series/story...and if you don't deliver that then how is that fair to the end-user?

amphibian, on 30 July 2020 - 01:39 PM, said:

Clearly what he's doing isn't resulting in books sooner rather than later, but maybe that's what he has to do in order to stay quasi functional.

Cool. I totally get it. But then don't make promises your butt can't cash. You want to sell your "done" series to the publisher and fans? Cool. It better be some semblance of "done" then otherwise you're going to face inevitable backlash. And when you don't speak to your editor for SIX of a nine year gap...yeah, that's not cool.

amphibian, on 30 July 2020 - 01:39 PM, said:

I dunno about prescribing what he needs to do - because I'm not him, I'm not related to him, and it's not my business. I'm going to leave him alone, enjoy his book if it ever comes out, and just find happiness elsewhere.

See I'm not really waiting for DoS anymore. When it comes out, if I hear it's a good finale, I'll probably read it...but my last comments are more to do with how he treated someone, who was inevitably a fan, who DARED to ask him about the series he writes...like how fucking dare he, right? Like there is a disconnect there that depression doesn't solve. But then I'm also not talking directly to him, or expressing any frustration directly to him on like twitter or whatever either...I feel no compunction to ask him about a book he clearly doesn't want to be asked about. So at least I'm not one of the people ranting at him to finish it already. I'm just indifferent.

But here's a case in point: Melanie Rawn is asked repeatedly about the 3rd Exiles book (THE CAPTAL'S TOWER) for like 23 years now...a book she ceased writing/never wrote because of a deep depression she was in at the time associated with writing the first two...and she's open about that, and she never has lashed out at the fans who want it, and as far as I can tell she's been in touch with her editor about it and other books all this time too...she just says she will get to it one day. As a fan of that series, I fully accept that because her geniality and openness about her reasons makes it much easier to stomach the long wait. It also helps that the first two books were BOTH stunningly good (best stuff she's written in my opinion)...and that she's written like 10 books and two other series since then for people to still read her work. But the bottom line here is her depression never caused her to be a dick to her readers about CAPTAL's TOWER. That's something I can't abide.

Am I invested, or am I just commenting on the state of things? I can't call it like I see it?

Is he a dick all the time? I don't know. I do know that he supposedly gets angry about it enough that people talk about it. Maybe don't engage with fans then? I guess maybe I don't get it. If people asking you about Book 3 in your only book series ever pisses you off...like why are you a writer?

[amphibian]

https://twitter.com/...7541221377?s=19

"I don't get sad or anxious. After 18 months of therapy, I know my constant, terrible anger is also a symptom of depression. #depressionlies"

March 13, 2014.

You know how depression works for your mother. That's good. People are different.

The mental illness component of this is not responsible for Rothfuss's choices, but it influences behavior and he's been upfront for years about how this expression of emotion is linked to his experience with depression.

Plus the video you're talking about is from 2015.

[champ]

You also have to consider if the dude is on medication... it may be a case that he just simply cannot write at the moment due to the meds... you'll be amazed at how much it can dull you / how much it can fuck with your brain... change your thought process and patterns...

Look at Kanye, he stopped taking his meds as it made him unable to complete an album... I wouldn't be surprised if it is something similar here...

Plus when you are going through depression, nothing is good enough and you are epicly paranoid... I wouldn't be shocked if his brain is telling him that everything he writes is not good enough / not worthy...

Hell when I am in a low mood phase I go into lurker mode here because why would anyone be interested in what I have to say... nevermind writing a book and having millions of people waiting with expectation...

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 30 July 2020 - 03:12 PM, said:

You know how depression works for your mother. That's good. People are different.

I mean, the closest that the clinical diagnosis gets to "anger" for depression is "agitation"...

I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm saying his diagnosis, if depression, is very likely not the component that is causing anger and outbursts...those are either character in-built, or they are some other mental health issue...at which point again it's not at all my/our business...and I can only call on what I see/hear. I am allowed to make judgements based on that, or is "being a dick" off limits in case it's a part of his mental health? I don't think mental heath should be a get out of jail free card for acting pretentious and angry. You can't be a jerk on the regular and go "Oh well, I'm mentally unwell so it's all good, shut up."

amphibian, on 30 July 2020 - 03:12 PM, said:

Plus the video you're talking about is from 2015.

I'm not sure how that matters? That just means that even 4 years after Book 2 he was already pissy with people for asking....nevermind 9.

But Amph, moreover how would you feel if you were the pizza delivery guy? Like you happen to enjoy this guys books, and lo and behold he's ordered a pizza from you! Man, that's exciting. Asked his about book 3, he said no publication date yet...and then you see a viral video of him right after that being annoyed at you, and sort of ridiculing that you dared to ask him because he's heard it SO many times before...

Like I would legit not be a fan anymore and would donate the first two books. That's how shitty that would make me feel as a human and a fan. Rothfuss intentionally did that live on a twitch stream.

champ, on 30 July 2020 - 03:47 PM, said:

You also have to consider if the dude is on medication... it may be a case that he just simply cannot write at the moment due to the meds... you'll be amazed at how much it can dull you / how much it can fuck with your brain... change your thought process and patterns...

This is a MUCH more viable reason for his attitude and lack of writing. My sister became a different and much more angry person on epilepsy meds, so I could 100% buy that meds are mucking up his chemistry enough to cause both a personality shift and lack of productivity.

I had not thought about that aspect. Thanks for noting it. It's VERY possible.

champ, on 30 July 2020 - 03:47 PM, said:

Plus when you are going through depression, nothing is good enough and you are epicly paranoid... I wouldn't be shocked if his brain is telling him that everything he writes is not good enough / not worthy...

Now that sounds like the depression I recognize. Yes, that's a very possible reason for his lack of productivity too. You would 100% second guess everything you produced.

champ, on 30 July 2020 - 03:47 PM, said:

Hell when I am in a low mood phase I go into lurker mode here because why would anyone be interested in what I have to say...

Hey, I find almost everyone here is interesting in their own ways and has stuff worthy of contribution here. If that helps at all. I have never found your comments uninteresting.

[HoosierDaddy]

I can't speak for Pat Rothfuss' depression and how it affects him. I can speak for mine though.

Explosive anger that is completely and utterly out of character was one of mine. There are times when I would (and still do) internalize and internalize and internalize, as most depressives do to the point that I was so beaten down NOTHING could get a rise out of me. Until the right circumstance happens. A minor miscue that is the proverbial straw and it doesn't result in the addition of another minute layer to the shame, weariness, and defeat I live(d) with day to day. It cause(s) a meltdown because the hole thing fucking violently explodes in an overreaction of ridiculous proportions that I KNOW is not okay WHILE it is happening and yet... there it is and continues as I realize it in real time and keep doing it.

Only to feel more thoroughly ashamed and guilty and weary afterwards.

I can't speak for Pat. But... inappropriate anger CAN be a side affect of the total mental and physical health breakdown that occurs in clinical depression in some people.

YMMV.

[Cause]

Little off topic but I see GRRM is also now getting flack for once again missing his own self imposed deadline.

I mean even a page a week and both of the. Would have a book by now. I’m no stranger to procrastination but wow

[Werthead]

THE NAME OF THE WIND had sold over 10 million copies by 2015; considerably more now. THE WISE MAN'S FEAR is not far behind. Combined sales for the two books plus the novella thing he put out a while back appear to be over 20 million, and that goes up every year. To put this in perspective, Brandon Sanderson's total sales are about 26 million and that's with 20-odd novels and several novellas in contention. Rothfuss is probably the biggest-selling debut fantasy author of this century (the only other one that comes to mind is Suzanna Clarke, and I don't think even JONATHAN STRANGE & MR. NORRELL had such a long tail on it). To put this more in perspective, THE KINGKILLER CHRONICLE has sold way more copies than A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE had when the TV show started (~12 million).

I suspect it's not what it was a few years ago and certainly not when they came out, but "multiple millions" of dollars per year is rather easily achievable when they'd only need to sell, what, 50,000 copies each per year to hit that (that's also the publishers cut at around ~85% of the cover price, Rothfuss probably isn't getting millions per year by himself). There's also the TV rights. Because the TV show was greenlit, Rothfuss got the option money for that which was certainly in the low millions of dollars (if it wasn't, his agent needs to be shot). Showtime "un-greenlighting" the show would have left them SOL with the option money.

I also think the point about Book 3 needing to tell the story for Book 2 as well is apt, since Book 2 doesn't seem to have progressed the story arc anywhere near far enough for the story to be resolved convincingly in one more volume. I wouldn't mind so much but Rothfuss could just change that: Chronicler needs to stay for two extra days, Kvothe sighs and agrees to extend the story etc, ironically writes, "It was a story of five parts" or whatever.

Quote

GRRM is also now getting flack for once again missing his own self imposed deadline.

GRRM is getting way more flak for his not-exactly-stunning handling of the Hugo Awards last night. I think he's quite happy right now to be sealed away in his mountain hideout.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 01 August 2020 - 07:52 PM

[champ]

QuickTidal, on 30 July 2020 - 04:24 PM, said:

champ, on 30 July 2020 - 03:47 PM, said:

Hell when I am in a low mood phase I go into lurker mode here because why would anyone be interested in what I have to say...

Hey, I find almost everyone here is interesting in their own ways and has stuff worthy of contribution here. If that helps at all. I have never found your comments uninteresting.

Cheers, QT, appreciated. I think it's more just about the mindset that you find yourself in and trying to shake that unworthy feeling.


I really do feel for Rothfuss, it must be terrifying, especially if he's still getting hit by severe depression...

HoosierDaddy, on 31 July 2020 - 12:08 AM, said:

There are times when I would (and still do) internalize and internalize and internalize, as most depressives do to the point that I was so beaten down NOTHING could get a rise out of me.

I call that the whirlwind, your thoughts are just spinning around, unending, battering you down bit by bit and there is no escape!! When that happens you know you are really in for a fight.

HoosierDaddy, on 31 July 2020 - 12:08 AM, said:

A minor miscue that is the proverbial straw and it doesn't result in the addition of another minute layer to the shame, weariness, and defeat I live(d) with day to day. It cause(s) a meltdown because the hole thing fucking violently explodes in an overreaction of ridiculous proportions that I KNOW is not okay WHILE it is happening and yet... there it is and continues as I realize it in real time and keep doing it.

Only to feel more thoroughly ashamed and guilty and weary afterwards.

I can't speak for Pat. But... inappropriate anger CAN be a side affect of the total mental and physical health breakdown that occurs in clinical depression in some people.

I think like what you said there, anger becomes a side affect of the depression, maybe not so much a symptom of the depression if that makes sense. When I feel my mood phase dropping I get angry/frustrated with the situation and the world, or I used to anyway… you know that you are going to be stuck with depression for the foreseeable and your attempts to do anything about it are futile, you're just strapped in for the ride no matter what you do… it feels so unfair and this is where the anger comes from, or where it used to for me…mainly because it has nothing to do with you, you've not caused it, it's purely a chemical imbalance in your brain and it sucks real bad...


All the best though HD, keep fighting that good fight…