[champ]

Sure it was confirmed he'll be now doing a 4th Iron Man film. He was just playing hard to get with the negotiations.

[Binder of Demons]

Got to see this today at last. Absolutely loved it. Not sure how i will feel about it on second (or third) viewing down the line, but it might be my favourite of them all so far, narrowly pipping Winter Soldier for top spot. The fight scenes didn't seem as monotonous as they often are in the superhero movies recently, and the personal stakes/grievances did make it more interesting than a purely idealistic stance on an issue.

I enjoyed the Spiderman cameo, and it bodes well for a future Spiderman project if the same creative team can be involved.

The Black Panther was a fantastic inclusion, and a great way to introduce him as a character before giving him his own feature. The costume was awesome, and his fighting style was cool too. Loved the way he was so quiet when he was running, or when he landed on the ground from a height he was virtually silent as well (especially compared to Cap and Bucky). Subtle things like that worked well.

Plenty more to like, but I'm really looking forward to the next phase of Marvel movies after that.

[champ]

I got to rewatch this and something I noticed in the airport fight scene with Spidey going up against Falcon and Winter Soldier, there is a great moment where they show off his spidey sense but don't point it out.

Winter Soldier throws a sign at him from behind and without looking Spidey's eyes widen, shouts "Oh God," ducks out the way, then grabs it and throws it back at him with a great line, "Here buddy, I think you lost this!"

[Primateus]

champ, on 14 May 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:

I got to rewatch this and something I noticed in the airport fight scene with Spidey going up against Falcon and Winter Soldier, there is a great moment where they show off his spidey sense but don't point it out.

Winter Soldier throws a sign at him from behind and without looking Spidey's eyes widen, shouts "Oh God," ducks out the way, then grabs it and throws it back at him with a great line, "Here buddy, I think you lost this!"

Easily my favourite moment in that fight.

[amphibian]

Saw the movie today and I agree with QuickTidal on the similarities between BvS and Civil War.

QuickTidal, on 09 May 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

It's interesting to have watched this on the back of BvS...as the stories are kind of similar (superheroes cause mass devastation and are brought to bear for it by the public, a very clever man masterminds a plan to get the heroes to fight each other), but where BvS went dark and grim, CIVIL WAR goes for light and humour. I mean it's exemplified in that airport fight where everyone is trying to hurt each other, but not kill each other. That line from Hawkeye as he and Black Widow are laying into one another "We're still friends right?" "Depends on how hard you hit me."...and I say this as someone who genuinely enjoyed BvS for being different and appreciate DC trying a whole other stylistic route with their films...CIVIL WAR really just makes you cheer for everyone across the board from minute one. I mean the ensemble opening sequence in Lagos is a perfect distillation of a comic book issue about the Avengers.

This isn't to say that BvS did anything wrong, they just chose a different path. But I DO think that with the whole Batman and Superman fight tale done, that the Justice League flick now needs to be FAR more bright, and whatever Superman emerges from the casket...he needs to be more like Cap now. Unbendably good. Not to copy Marvel persay, but to give everyone their own airport scene to cheer for.

And after having seen both...I think I enjoyed CIVIL WAR more than BvS. By a fair margin. And again, not to say I don't like what the DCCU is doing, just that it has its SUPER dark story out of the way now....so it needs to pave the way to something brighter and more aspirational. And it sounds like Affleck has joined the Executive Producers on JL over the last few days...so my hope is that he can bring that to it. Only time will tell. I think if the DCCU STAYS as dark as BvS was...they will fail.

The best parts of BvS are mostly better than Civil War. However, its worst parts are worse than those of Civil War. Thus, I think they're about the same level of movie with the key difference being that the marvel characters are more likable - which I don't really care that much about in a movie that tries to tackle serious issues.

I think in terms of dealing with oversight and the tricky issues of superpowered people in the context of non-superpowered conflicts, BvS does a much better job. Who has natural authority over a Kryotonian demigod? Should anyone? Is he accountable for the consequences of his interventions? Should a gov't fund and support such a hero? What happens when the hero himself doubts his ability to choose wisely?

And then they worked that into Lex's plot in a brilliant way. It really worked in that movie for me.

Civil War does some extremely stupid stuff. 117 countries sign an internationally famous Sokovia Accords and this is a surprise to the Avengers? They're only the most well connected and aware team of heroes in existence. The nature and extent of UN control was also begging to be explored in a surprisingly organic way and the directors/writers/editors/studio passed that up. The Raft submarine prison also pops up out of nowhere. Who paid for all that/built that? Superman's arc made more sense than this one did.

The Spiderman parts were cute, but in context, it's awful. BvS made no pretensions Bruce and Lex were anything other than deranged, murdering billionaires. Tony Stark, who is not muc different than Wayne, gets screen equivalent of cuddles while he goes to a rookoe teenager hero's house, possibly hits on Aunt May, spends an unusual amount of time in a locked bedroom with a teen, and then brings him to a superpowered fight in a foreign country. It's awful in context and it makes no sense beyond territory staking. Cage, Jones, Daredevil are all available (cast long ago) and they weren't used.

Captain's position makes a ton of sense even if Iron Man's oversight idea is more correct. I'd ve balkimg at UN or USA oversight. Advisory committees, sure. However, none of the depths are explored beyond Natasha playing both sides. It's a story problem and the Zemo plot, despite being good, ends up not mattering much beyond enflaming personal animosity. The five abandoned Winter Soldiers are like a Chekhov's gun taken down from the wall, mangled, and then thrown away. What about keeping one alive for possible future hijinks? Instead, they are a simple corpse audience after being built up to be Bucky beaters. Wheeeeee.

Black Panther is great. Everything about him makes sense and I love the "Let them come." line. It evokes the See Wakanda and Die arc, which was terrific.

So yeah, it's not as good as Guardians of the Galaxy, much less Iron Man, Deadpool, Blade 2, or Winter Soldier. I would say the cute and fuzzy stuff disguises problems with the story/actions of characters, which is what BvS didn't do (honestly refreshing to see a refusal to cater to audience, but also leading to a need for a truly noble and awe-inspiring next Superman movie - we need that joy and inspiration now).

The big problem BvS had is that the cut we saw didn't explain how Lex went nuts exploring the Kryotonian archives and seeing Darkseid, and the first dream (cave, parents) was not necessary in the slightest. I think the half hour longer cut we will get may be better.

So yeah, Marvel lies to us about how cuddly Tony Stark is and DC is honest about how Batman and Lex are empowered jerks (for now). One gets huge praises, the other gets meh reception. Go figure.

[Macros]

im going to see this tonight hopefully

[blackzoid]

Good review from Vern here on it. Probably my fav one. He doesnt go out of his way to put a dump on BvS in praising Civil War, like so many other reviewers (imo) did.
http://outlawvern.co...rica-civil-war/

[Macros]

And I have the entire studio to myself.

Excellent

[Macros]

It was good. Not great, definitely not my top Marvel flic, not my top Cap flic, Id say I prefer Winter Soldier to Civil War.

Whilst yes there was plenty of action, and the usual goofy one liners (which don't bother me, these films have always been semi light hearted anyway) There was never any real danger to any of the protagonists that we've known for like 10 films now. Of the 2 that came closest to dying, neither are big players, and the one who did actually get hurt is, no offence to the man, a non entity to me, tacked onto a star hero's coat tails.

I get it, we've another quazillion movies to get through before the Avengers tale is done.
Don't put them into fights we know they're going to walk out of.

That said, the action was solid, and came pretty thick and fast with little boring down time. Any down time was relevant to the storyline (as thin and hole ridden as the plot may be, it still needed servicing)

Panther was good, as has been said already, his movements suggest a catlike demeanor in a way spiderman never encapsulates a spider.

Blech, I enjoyed it, glad I watched Antman first, and looking forward to Panthers solo offering.
Has it got me psyched for infinity war? Eh not really. After the cop out in NY I don't hold any hope for meaningful tragedy. Spidey was entertaining and played nervous youth pretty well.

Again the hammering some of the guys take but blood only shows at the end, but that's a nitpick for many a film, superheroes or no.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 15 May 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

The best parts of BvS are mostly better than Civil War. However, its worst parts are worse than those of Civil War. Thus, I think they're about the same level of movie with the key difference being that the marvel characters are more likable - which I don't really care that much about in a movie that tries to tackle serious issues.

Yeah, I can see that POV. Though, I will say that I wanted something like the opening to CIVIL WAR (the very comic-booky opening) in BvS, I understand why I co9uldnt' have that in that particular movie. And I agree that I don't need the DC heroes ot be as likeable as the MArvel heroes. Different tones and styles call for that to be starkly on screen, and I can enjoy both for different reasons.

amphibian, on 15 May 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

I think in terms of dealing with oversight and the tricky issues of superpowered people in the context of non-superpowered conflicts, BvS does a much better job. Who has natural authority over a Kryotonian demigod? Should anyone? Is he accountable for the consequences of his interventions? Should a gov't fund and support such a hero? What happens when the hero himself doubts his ability to choose wisely?

Agreed. The Sokovia Accords, and how the sides are chosen in CIVIL WAR is very muddled and almost distanced from the public - we HEAR from Ross that the public supports the Acccords VIA country, but we don't see much of the average joe responding to it...meanwhile BvS not only shows masses of people either protesting or not (or weighing in on Batman as well), but we get main characters who are involved in that (the guy in the wheelchair who spraypaints the statue). I think that sets us down at a more even keel with understanding the oversight situation on the ground. I never got that feeling from CIVIL WAR.

amphibian, on 15 May 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

And then they worked that into Lex's plot in a brilliant way. It really worked in that movie for me.

Yup.

amphibian, on 15 May 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

Civil War does some extremely stupid stuff. 117 countries sign an internationally famous Sokovia Accords and this is a surprise to the Avengers? They're only the most well connected and aware team of heroes in existence. The nature and extent of UN control was also begging to be explored in a surprisingly organic way and the directors/writers/editors/studio passed that up. The Raft submarine prison also pops up out of nowhere. Who paid for all that/built that? Superman's arc made more sense than this one did.

I didn't think about this till you mentioned it, but you're right. It makes little sense that they would be completely broadsided by the Accords if so many countries were in on it...and what? In secret? I doubt it. And yeah, I think the Superman arc tackles that better by basically being a ground-up movement that is followed on TV and by Clark himself. He knows what he's in for, and makes his decisions based on that.

amphibian, on 15 May 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

The Spiderman parts were cute, but in context, it's awful. BvS made no pretensions Bruce and Lex were anything other than deranged, murdering billionaires. Tony Stark, who is not muc different than Wayne, gets screen equivalent of cuddles while he goes to a rookoe teenager hero's house, possibly hits on Aunt May, spends an unusual amount of time in a locked bedroom with a teen, and then brings him to a superpowered fight in a foreign country. It's awful in context and it makes no sense beyond territory staking. Cage, Jones, Daredevil are all available (cast long ago) and they weren't used.

I'm willing to give this part a pass simply because they FINALLY got Spiderman right. I get what you are saying but I think this was the most innocuous way to intro the character and make good on their deal with Sony to use the character...so it was probably more a business necessity than something the Russo's intended to seem trite or unbelievable, or even weird. It was a clean way to bring Spidey into the fold with minimal narrative resistance.

I also REALLY liked that Batman's arc is that he's gone so far off the deep end that he's even pretty much down with collateral damage/deaths in service to saving lives...and that's something that changes by the end. I'm glad we started with a nearly unrecognizable Batman who's been doing his vigilante schtick too long...and HE'S the one who goes up against Superman who he fears could kill everyone...it's a REALLY interesting juxtaposition as a result.

amphibian, on 15 May 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

Captain's position makes a ton of sense even if Iron Man's oversight idea is more correct. I'd ve balkimg at UN or USA oversight. Advisory committees, sure. However, none of the depths are explored beyond Natasha playing both sides. It's a story problem and the Zemo plot, despite being good, ends up not mattering much beyond enflaming personal animosity. The five abandoned Winter Soldiers are like a Chekhov's gun taken down from the wall, mangled, and then thrown away. What about keeping one alive for possible future hijinks? Instead, they are a simple corpse audience after being built up to be Bucky beaters. Wheeeeee.

I think The biggest thing I get form the Cap VS Tony thing is that Tony is OBVIOUSLY suffering from TRAUMATIC PTSD...and none of his so-called friends care much. That was a little incongruous...and it feeds directly into what you are talking about with what side makes more sense....as I don't think that Tony of IRON MAN 1 era, or Pre-AVENGERS would EVER have come down on the oversight side like he did...but because he's traumatized he does...but then no one pays attention to the trauma at all...whch I feel makes Tony's side less supported from an Audience perspective.

amphibian, on 15 May 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

Black Panther is great. Everything about him makes sense and I love the "Let them come." line. It evokes the See Wakanda and Die arc, which was terrific.

Boseman was AMAZING. I literally cannot wait for his standalone movie (which I don't know if you heard now stars Lupita N'yongo and Michael B. Jordan as well!) as BP. He embodied the character that I've come to know from the comics I've read that he's in.

amphibian, on 15 May 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

So yeah, it's not as good as Guardians of the Galaxy, much less Iron Man, Deadpool, Blade 2, or Winter Soldier. I would say the cute and fuzzy stuff disguises problems with the story/actions of characters, which is what BvS didn't do (honestly refreshing to see a refusal to cater to audience, but also leading to a need for a truly noble and awe-inspiring next Superman movie - we need that joy and inspiration now).

I agree that it's not as good as GotG or Winter Soldier...but I think it's better than the others you mentioned, not by much mind you...but slightly.

And I agree about BvS not catering to audience expectations.

amphibian, on 15 May 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

The big problem BvS had is that the cut we saw didn't explain how Lex went nuts exploring the Kryotonian archives and seeing Darkseid, and the first dream (cave, parents) was not necessary in the slightest. I think the half hour longer cut we will get may be better.

So yeah, Marvel lies to us about how cuddly Tony Stark is and DC is honest about how Batman and Lex are empowered jerks (for now). One gets huge praises, the other gets meh reception. Go figure.

Agree again. But I really come down as liking both for different reasons...and CIVIL WAR comes out on top for me in some areas and not others.

That said, the final battle in BvS is literally THE MOST comic booky looking Superhero fight sequence I've ever seen put to film, with the three of them going up against Doomsday.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Just watched it.... I'm really disappointed.

I think, for me personally, the Marvel films get steadily worse the more characters they have to fit into the two and a half hour time slot. Winter Soldier was brilliant - because it was much smaller and more focused.

The battle between all the various Avengers felt ridiculous - far too many trying-too-hard-to-be-funny moments. I mean yes, we've established in the Avengers films that at some point mid-fight someone will start quipping, but there were about five too many one-line moments breaking up the already rather silly action. On that front, did anyone else think the CGI for the first couple of action scenes of the film was pretty ropy? I couldn't tell you exactly what the problem was but it definitely felt "off" to watch. Also, they've been to the Michael Bay school of camerawork in a big way - when in doubt, hide everything with shakey-cam!

I came out feeling sorry for Tony. I know the film is wanting the audience to root for Team Cap, but I couldn't. Whilst there are so many problems with government oversight, Cap's methods do nothing more than prove the point of the Sokovian Accords. The moment where Zemo is in the bunker and plays the video of the death of Tony's parents was superb - but then undercut completely by the ending of "Cap writes a letter, it's all okay." Zemo was a good plot, but it ends up barely mattering and feels like a waste.

Spiderman however felt right - his plot entry might have been ridiculous, but they're playing him spot on for me. Black Panther is also tremendously well cast - I am genuinely excited for the stand alone film.

Sigh. Ah well, can't win 'em all.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 18 May 2016 - 09:11 PM

[amphibian]

The one liners are mostly terrible. In any movie ever. The exceptions almost always reside in the movies that intentionally camp it up.

Comics get away with it because it's a static art format. Moving pictures add an extra bit of realism that kinda ruins the dynamic for that.

Plus real fighting is really hard without taking breaks to poorly lampoon an enemy.

[Tsundoku]

Loved this line from Vern (Blackzoid's link):

"(I wonder if a hundred years after Tony Stark’s side lost, people will still insist on putting his symbol on their pickup trucks and state flags?)"

Also, I echo the approval of Chadwick Boseman. He really had the presence and dignity you come to expect from the better-written comics with Black Panther. The intellect and wisdom wasn't on display so much, but I have high hopes for the solo flick.
Good call on "See Wakanda And Die", that shit was pretty awesome. Could also have been subtitled "Do Not Fuck With Us. Ever" or "We Will End Your Shit".

Can't recall who mentioned it here first, but they nailed it on Tony's PTSD.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 19 May 2016 - 12:09 PM

[Cause]

For me the Wakanda thing is quite awkward. Maybe its because I am from South Africa. South Africa is arguably the best and most progressive African country at the moment. Compared to Wakanda we are still in the dark ages. Wakanda is like the ultimate African wish fulfilment only its written by a white guy. I don't know what to make of it really but it seems like it is tackling major issues but in the most infantile manner imaginable.

Wakada is in middle eastern Africa but they speak Xhosa which is the language of the southernmost part of South Africa. This last is because the father of Tchala in the movie is a Xhosa but until he suggested it they were never going to speak anything but English. However, allowing for how it happened, its again lazy to just pick an African language at random. Somehow I don't ever picture Doom speaking French just because the actor is French. They knew that 99% of the audience could never pick up on it and so just phoned it in. All the while that they are representing this strong African nation they took a swipe that says Africa is not important.

Dont mean to get to deep on this but as I said for me the whole thing comes across as awkward.

[amphibian]

Black Panther, after the 60s, was mostly written in major titles by black men. The movie makers are white, but almost everything they did regarding BP was based on the comic works.

The Xhosa thing came about because 1) Kani, the actor who played T'Chaka, lobbied to have scenes where they speak an African language to each other and since he knows Xhosa.... and 2) South Africa has a decent TV/movie industry with a pool of actors who can speak Xhosa, and 3) it fits with the glottal stops in the names of the Wakandans.

I actually wish they'd done a different language closer to a mid continental state and not had the glottal stops, but it seems that the T'Challa and W'kabi style names are staying in every incarnation.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 19 May 2016 - 12:58 PM

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 19 May 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

Black Panther, after the 60s, was mostly written in major titles by black men. The movie makers are white, but almost everything they did regarding BP was based on the comic works.

The Xhosa thing came about because 1) Kani, the actor who played T'Chaka, lobbied to have scenes where they speak an African language to each other and since he knows Xhosa.... and 2) South Africa has a decent TV/movie industry with a pool of actors who can speak Xhosa.

And is currently being written, to great aplomb, by Atlantic writer Ta-Nehesi Coates.

[D'rek]

amphibian, on 19 May 2016 - 02:52 AM, said:

The one liners are mostly terrible. In any movie ever. The exceptions almost always reside in the movies that intentionally camp it up.

Comics get away with it because it's a static art format. Moving pictures add an extra bit of realism that kinda ruins the dynamic for that.

Plus real fighting is really hard without taking breaks to poorly lampoon an enemy.

On the flip side, I like the one liners, I like how they make the fights less brutal so that it keeps the tone comic-book-jaunty. I don't want to see "real fighting" in my superhero comics movies! There's plenty of other movies I can watch that have that (and where a realistic fight won't be off-put by the characters wearing bright spandex, either).

[amphibian]

I get what you say about lightening up fight scenes in an emotional context, but I think it's usually the wrong move - especially in Civil War. The airport fight is supposed to be hugely dramatic and freighted with overtones of a team splintering, friends fighting, and the sense of regret losing to the sense of duty. Putting the Hawkeye/Black Widow one liner in there was bad. Spider-man's quipping was better, but still kinda not right for that scene.

There's a way to make one liners work in fight scenes - but it's almost always in situations where it's a one on one battle between two evenly matched people or one person vs a lotta scrubs. A swirling, level switching battle between teams of super-powered individuals is a bad place to put a one liner in because the pacing gets thrown off by dwelling on that line delivery too long. Snyder did a great multi-person battle in Batman vs Superman (when Doomsday fights Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman) and he didn't have much talking going on because the situation should be too fast and too difficult for the heroes to waste much time quipping.

See Deadpool for a great example of recent "one liners in a fight" work. 300 (despite being a movie/comic with a trash soul) did this well by slowing down the action scenes for visual effect anyways, so they could fit nearly whatever into the scenes without damaging the pacing. Street Fighter (Van Damme movie) has some of the greatest one liners in any action movie ever because they 100% embraced the camp.

(Also, spandex/neoprene/lycra/polyester is GREAT for fighting in. I wear a bunch every day I train MMA/Brazilian jiu jitsu, including some very, very purple gear or my American flag spats.)

This post has been edited by amphibian: 19 May 2016 - 02:23 PM

[Cause]

amphibian, on 19 May 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

Black Panther, after the 60s, was mostly written in major titles by black men. The movie makers are white, but almost everything they did regarding BP was based on the comic works.

The Xhosa thing came about because 1) Kani, the actor who played T'Chaka, lobbied to have scenes where they speak an African language to each other and since he knows Xhosa.... and 2) South Africa has a decent TV/movie industry with a pool of actors who can speak Xhosa, and 3) it fits with the glottal stops in the names of the Wakandans.

I actually wish they'd done a different language closer to a mid continental state and not had the glottal stops, but it seems that the T'Challa and W'kabi style names are staying in every incarnation.

I hear what your saying regards to Xhosa, my argument however is that if Michael Fassbender was playing Dr Doom they would not have him speak German and try to pass it off as Latverian. They knew though that nobody could tell one African language from another or from one completely made up.

Also my understanding is that originally black panther was created by white men?

Also while superman or batman is wish fulfilment. Wakanda is wish fulfilment on a societal scale. There is no African country that even comes to its utopia. I cnt say what it means but it is fascinating

[amphibian]

Cause, on 19 May 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

I hear what your saying regards to Xhosa, my argument however is that if Michael Fassbender was playing Dr Doom they would not have him speak German and try to pass it off as Latverian. They knew though that nobody could tell one African language from another or from one completely made up.

Also my understanding is that originally black panther was created by white men?

Also while superman or batman is wish fulfilment. Wakanda is wish fulfilment on a societal scale. There is no African country that even comes to its utopia. I cnt say what it means but it is fascinating

Yes, Jack Kirby was the prime creator with Stan Lee assisting. He was kinda a goofy adventurer for a while, then things got more serious in the 1970s. The biggest leaps in Black Panther's world-building have come under McGregor, Priest, and Hudlin (the latter two are black). Ta-Nehisi Coates now has it and looks to be doing a stellar job (along with Raymond Stelfreeze, the current artist who is also black).

Wakanda is one of the most interesting things I've ever seen in comics because more than half the people who wrote Black Panther were white Americans and the others who were black were all American too. It's absolutely wish-fulfillment, but it's sort of in the same Pan-African field as Marcus Garvey - but it's seen from an American viewpoint and sold to a primarily American audience. I think the way Wakanda is presented/set-up was also crappily handled from when Priest expanded upon it majorly until Jason Aaron's See Wakanda and Die, then Hickman's Black Panther was terrific. Coates and Stelfreeze seem to have blended everything together superbly in the two issues so far.

So over the last 6 months or so, I read everything Black Panther I could. It's a truly fascinating series of comics from the not-great beginnings as a simple adventurer to some of the most dynamic and weird stuff in comics.