[Gorefest]

I personally agree, but in my view it is the wrong discussion to have at this time. It is again fighting the symptoms of the system, not the root causes of the problem. Even someone with a semi-automatic, provided they are properly trained, background checked and registered, should not pose a significant threat.

[QuickTidal]

Gorefest, on 23 February 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

I personally agree, but in my view it is the wrong discussion to have at this time. It is again fighting the symptoms of the system, not the root causes of the problem. Even someone with a semi-automatic, provided they are properly trained, background checked and registered, should not pose a significant threat.

I guess I just think they need to start somewhere in all this, and outlawing autos and semi-autos seems like a pertinent start.

[Cause]

QuickTidal, on 23 February 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 23 February 2018 - 03:28 PM, said:

Gun ownership isn't the problem, it's gun mentality and ease of access. As long as someone with a documented history of mental health problems can have easy access to semi-automatic guns and ammunation, there is something fundamentally broken in your society. And it isn't just gun laws. It is also social and healthcare. Probably even more so. Trying to take guns away from people is just fighting the symptoms, not the root causes. Let people have their guns if they want them, just make sure that they are able and competent to handle them.

Actually, the TYPES of guns ARE a big part of the problem.

No civilian needs an automatic or semi-automatic weapon. No one.

Im assuming you mean semi automatic assault rifles? Im not so concerned by these. They have longer range and better accuracy than semi automatic pistols but otherwise a gun is a gun and can kill you. For some people. farmers in my country for example this gun might even make sense. Its the extended military mags and mods that make them fire close to automatics that are ridiculous.

What absolutly blows my mind is that you can buy sniper rifles in the states! not a hunting rifle with a scope but actual sniper rifles. That is a weapon of murder. If guns are your sport play with it and leave it on the range.

[Vengeance]

Cause, on 23 February 2018 - 04:14 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 23 February 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 23 February 2018 - 03:28 PM, said:

Gun ownership isn't the problem, it's gun mentality and ease of access. As long as someone with a documented history of mental health problems can have easy access to semi-automatic guns and ammunation, there is something fundamentally broken in your society. And it isn't just gun laws. It is also social and healthcare. Probably even more so. Trying to take guns away from people is just fighting the symptoms, not the root causes. Let people have their guns if they want them, just make sure that they are able and competent to handle them.

Actually, the TYPES of guns ARE a big part of the problem.

No civilian needs an automatic or semi-automatic weapon. No one.

Im assuming you mean semi automatic assault rifles? Im not so concerned by these. They have longer range and better accuracy than semi automatic pistols but otherwise a gun is a gun and can kill you. For some people. farmers in my country for example this gun might even make sense. Its the extended military mags and mods that make them fire close to automatics that are ridiculous.

What absolutly blows my mind is that you can buy sniper rifles in the states! not a hunting rifle with a scope but actual sniper rifles. That is a weapon of murder. If guns are your sport play with it and leave it on the range.

While true. There is actually a pretty big difference if you are shot by a normal hand gun then by a ar- 15.

https://www.nbcnews....ible-ncna848346

The important bit.

Quote

The 9mm handgun is generally regarded as an effective weapon; its bullet travels at 1,200 feet per second and delivers a kinetic energy of 400 foot pounds. By comparison, the standard AR-15 bullet travels at 3,251 feet per second and delivers 1300 foot pounds.

Tissue destruction of the AR-15 is further enhanced by cavitation, which is the destruction of tissue beyond the direct pathway of the bullet; this occurs with high velocity bullets because their kinetic energies are over 2,500 foot pounds.
AR-15 semi-automatic guns are on display for sale in Springville, Utah. George Frey / Getty Images

To compare again, a typical 9mm handgun wound to the liver will produce a pathway of tissue destruction in the order of 1-2 inches. In comparison, an AR-15 round to the liver will literally pulverize it, much like dropping a watermelon onto concrete results in the destruction of the watermelon. Wounds like this, as one sees in school shootings like Sandy Hook and Parkland where AR-15s were used, have high fatality rates.

There is no justifiable reason to have them in the hands of civilians. If you are talking close quarters a shotgun or a pistol are just as effective for home defense. If you are talking hunting then a rifle is better. Semi - automatic weapons have no use in any society even one as gun centric as ours.

[Vengeance]

https://www.theatlan...on-guns/553937/

Quote

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?

The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semi-automatic rifle which delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. There was nothing left to repair, and utterly, devastatingly, nothing that could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal.

A year ago, when a gunman opened fire at the Fort Lauderdale airport with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun, hitting 11 people in 90 seconds, I was also on call. It was not until I had diagnosed the third of the six victims who were transported to the trauma center that I realized something out-of-the-ordinary must have happened. The gunshot wounds were the same low velocity handgun injuries as those I diagnose every day; only their rapid succession set them apart. And all six of the victims who arrived at the hospital that day survived.
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Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim's body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and they do not bleed to death before being transported to our care at a trauma center, chances are, we can save the victim. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different; they travel at higher velocity and are far more lethal. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than, and imparting more than three times the energy of, a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading.

I have seen a handful of AR-15 injuries in my career. I saw one from a man shot in the back by a SWAT team years ago. The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat travelling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange.

[Vengeance]

Any person that wants to buy a AR-15 should have to see pictures of the dead children from Sandyhook and Douglas.

https://www.thestar....pen_coffin.html

Just like cigarettes warnings. Anyone who is against a ban on semi-automatic weapons should be shown the raw pictures of the dead kids. A dead 6 year old with no jaw and no left hand. Pictures of the exit wounds. You want to be a big man with a gun then you should get a visual reminder of what that gun can do. In fact the imagines should be on all of the guns. On the sides and on the extended ammo magazines.

[Vengeance]

QuickTidal, on 23 February 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 23 February 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

I personally agree, but in my view it is the wrong discussion to have at this time. It is again fighting the symptoms of the system, not the root causes of the problem. Even someone with a semi-automatic, provided they are properly trained, background checked and registered, should not pose a significant threat.

I guess I just think they need to start somewhere in all this, and outlawing autos and semi-autos seems like a pertinent start.

Full auto's are outlawed.

[QuickTidal]

Vengeance, on 23 February 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 23 February 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 23 February 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

I personally agree, but in my view it is the wrong discussion to have at this time. It is again fighting the symptoms of the system, not the root causes of the problem. Even someone with a semi-automatic, provided they are properly trained, background checked and registered, should not pose a significant threat.

I guess I just think they need to start somewhere in all this, and outlawing autos and semi-autos seems like a pertinent start.

Full auto's are outlawed.

Ah okay. Was unaware.

[Andorion]

I believe that BK once pointed out that there are some scenarios where AR 15s are needed like in the South where there is a wild hog infestation and given their numbers, speed and temperament a gun like that is needed by hunters

[Macros]

If a child hits another child with a stick, do you

A ) give every child a stick
B ) give some children sticks and teach them to defend all the other kids from sticks
C ) remove all the fucking sticks

[Vengeance]

Andorion, on 23 February 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

I believe that BK once pointed out that there are some scenarios where AR 15s are needed like in the South where there is a wild hog infestation and given their numbers, speed and temperament a gun like that is needed by hunters

No. Wanted. Not needed. People have hunted hogs with guns for a hundred plus years without a AR-15.

[Slow Ben]

All John Locke needed was a knife.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Andorion, on 23 February 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

I believe that BK once pointed out that there are some scenarios where AR 15s are needed like in the South where there is a wild hog infestation and given their numbers, speed and temperament a gun like that is needed by hunters

This reminds me of the emu war oddly enough...

Personally I don't see an issue with owning automatic rifles. A buddy of mine is a collector and has among other things a mauser and an arquebuse, not automatic weapons but hardly practical weapons. Some people like collecting things. I see an issue with jo smoe coming into a store and buying an automatic weapon. Owning a weapon should come with some sort of quality control in terms of a psych evaluation, background and criminal check and a licensing system where gun safety and gun handling are mandatory knowledge.

[worry]

Tsundoku, on 23 February 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

Back on topic - worry, I keep reading your projection that conservatism will fall by the wayside when the current generation of old farts dies off. Or at least diminish significantly in it's influence and extremity of beliefs. I'm not so sure, basically because it's always been a thing that we tend to get more conservative as we get older. Those same old farts today were getting shot with rubber bullets and water cannons in the 60s. Is it because we grow more risk-averse as we get older? More straight-out fearful? More stuff to lose if there's a shakeup in society? I dunno, whatever the reason, I believe it's a thing. I'm sorry, I can't give you stats, but I hope you get the gist. Please understand I don't like this either, I'm just saying is all.

HOWEVER: could it be another "thing" that if an individual's politics could be considered a sliding scale (or even see-saw) with full on leftie SJW bleeding heart crybully at one end and gun toting, bible thumping, Fox watchers and/or evil rich bastards at the other end, then perhaps it's not the amount you change over a lifetime, but where you finish compared to where you start?
Ie the further to the left you start, the more likely you are not to finish up at the far right of the spectrum? And the reverse ... although generally people go from left to right with age.
The example of the baby boomers doesn't exactly fill me with optimism though. Fuckers were supposedly all about peace, love freedom etc and now they own everything, hate the idea of peace and cooperation and don't have the decency to pass the resources on and die.

Anyhoo, I'm hoping you're right enough in the sense that we won't have so many at the extreme right as the current lot die off and are replaced. Maybe the next lot will retain enough leftisms to have some empathy. Or at least more than the current lot.

Man, that made more sense in my head.

Regarding this conventional wisdom: there's some truth to it, in that as you age you naturally (psychologically) come to resist change, but there's also the fact that at any given point, younger people are more socially liberal than the older generations so there's also an illusory effect there of what it means to age politically. The former is real, but the latter exaggerates it.

But I would also point out that democracy is only a couple hundred years old. It's a blip, a toddler. And at the same time, there's been an explosion in information, technology, interconnectedness, and change only the youngest generations have grown up immersed in. I don't think 'the rules' are as written in stone as they may seem just from studying like the Greatest Generation through Generation X, if you see what I mean. Like you could describe the trends, and accurately, and the data wouldn't be worthless...but it wouldn't be reflective of the major changes of the past few decades, and I think it's less predictive than some might think.

I guess my beliefs are predicated on a few things: as I said, traditional wedge issues, culture war stuff, that's all definitely falling by the wayside. Even among evangelicals, the generational differences are stark. Also, the Cold War has been over for almost 3 decades now, and there's 1.5 generations where the paranoia has been completely absent. Socialism -- particularly democratic socialism -- isn't a bogeyman. People can distinguish between Scandinavian countries and North Korea, and don't have to rely on propaganda film strips shown in high school for all they know of far off lands. On the other hand, capitalism is definitely increasingly getting the reputation it deserves. It's harder to hide anything, and Gen Z is less willing to pretend the bad stuff isn't happening. Is denial a 'natural' reaction to some things in life? Sure. But big picture I think there's a cultural denial as well, and as a culture we're getting past that generationally.

Like, here's an example off the top of my head: Fox News, say, wants to argue that what happened to Philando Castile is normal, anyone might have shot him to death in front of his girlfriend and her daughter, and while it's (maybe) a tragedy, the officer shouldn't be blamed. How stark do you think the difference in reaction to that message is between boomers, who grew up with one mythology about police, and Gen Z, who've grown up with the police demythologized? And of course as Gen Z gets older, they might get a bit more stubborn, less comfortable with change. But do you think they're going to slide back into "Actually, what happened to Philando Castile wasn't so bad"? I really don't think so.

Will a leftward shift in economic beliefs lag behind social beliefs? And will that slow the disintegration of the GOP, given that they're one of two major options that moderates who lean one way or another have to choose from, and especially in the face of their all out war on voting rights? Sure to both. But previous generations also weren't so fluent in intersectional politics, or in linking social disparities to economic disparities and knowing they have common cause. As Nevyn points out, not everyone is gonna be on the socialist left. But at the same time, as progressive values become normalized, because they are correct in the same way the theory of evolution is correct, even backsliding into relative conservatism isn't going to be able to mean the same thing it once did.

All of what I'm saying, of course, is proportionally speaking. I'm not talking about the extinction of the American conservative in one fell generational swoop. But I do think Gen Z is fundamentally primed for a bigger leap forward than previous generations, are (hopefully) less afraid to make that leap, and have less reason or even room to backslide. And I think Gen X and Millennials are more inclined to be towed in their wake. Maybe some of that is faith or optimism. And I don't dismiss Nevyn's warnings. That said, I don't think anything I'm saying is that far out.

Sorry for the tl;dr.

[Vengeance]

LinearPhilosopher, on 23 February 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

Andorion, on 23 February 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

I believe that BK once pointed out that there are some scenarios where AR 15s are needed like in the South where there is a wild hog infestation and given their numbers, speed and temperament a gun like that is needed by hunters

This reminds me of the emu war oddly enough...

Personally I don't see an issue with owning automatic rifles. A buddy of mine is a collector and has among other things a mauser and an arquebuse, not automatic weapons but hardly practical weapons. Some people like collecting things. I see an issue with jo smoe coming into a store and buying an automatic weapon. Owning a weapon should come with some sort of quality control in terms of a psych evaluation, background and criminal check and a licensing system where gun safety and gun handling are mandatory knowledge.

That is nice.

https://twitter.com/...520749686493184


Not an American shooting but still

[HoosierDaddy]

Macros, on 23 February 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

If a child hits another child with a stick, do you

A ) give every child a stick
B ) give some children sticks and teach them to defend all the other kids from sticks
C ) remove all the fucking sticks

More sticks for the dogs. Win/win?

Anywho: a paraphrased response from my brother when I texted him a couple of days ago (high school teacher, football coach, regularly breaks up fights and kids love him):

"I don't want to live in a world where teachers have to have guns. It's ridiculous."

[worry]

Just a couple rigorous studies on gun ownership & gun violence. (Spoilers are for size)

https://www.kellogg....%20469/guns.pdf

Spoiler

http://david-schindl...20Schindler.pdf

Spoiler

For a glut of gun-related studies, please see this thread: https://twitter.com/...931820058976256

[Gorefest]

Maybe Trump envisions some sort of real life Battle Royale, where only the strong survive, making America great again.

[worry]

I'm not making a direct line between this and the gun issue above what I've already said, but this is an interesting rundown of some pretty stark shifts:


Sourcing available here: https://www.motherjo...ome-these-days/

I will say, even as they age, as they have families of their own, as they get stodgier and more set in their ways....they're already starting out way sharper, savvier, and more sensible than everyone before them, so even a little regression isn't gonna be as devastating as, say, the great betrayals carried out by the boomers. They already see through things like this, and aren't going to be nostalgic for it:

[Tsundoku]

From what I've read, this is a new thing:

http://nymag.com/dai...ign-mounts.html

Businesses are actually cutting close ties with the NRA. Not many, and not the biggest to be sure, but it's a start.