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Guns, control and culture.

#1 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 01:25 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 02 October 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

View PostGredfallan Ale, on 01 October 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:




View PostNicodimas, on 01 October 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

...another gun school shooting.

15 dead as of now.... :)


I saw that. Horrible.

Also, the Onion yet again NAILS the situation with simple aplomb.

'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens


This is one aspect of American culture that will never cease to baffle me. How many thouands must die before people do something? Why is it necessary for everybody to have guns? That amendment argument that gets spouted everytime is utter bullshit. Armed militias were important in the War of Independence. Yes. But guess what? The state wise national guard system has to a large extent institutionalised that militia. So why is it necessary for ordinary peopel to have guns?
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#2 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 02:32 PM

View PostAndorion, on 02 October 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

.... The state wise national guard system has to a large extent institutionalised that militia. So why is it necessary for ordinary peopel to have guns?


To defend themselves against the state milita, the ordinary people would tell you.

....from their basements where they store six pistols, seventeen automatic assault rifles and enough ammunition for a sunny day in Mogadishu.
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#3 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 02:59 PM

View PostAbyss, on 02 October 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 02 October 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

.... The state wise national guard system has to a large extent institutionalised that militia. So why is it necessary for ordinary peopel to have guns?


To defend themselves against the state milita, the ordinary people would tell you.

....from their basements where they store six pistols, seventeen automatic assault rifles and enough ammunition for a sunny day in Mogadishu.





But why so paranoid? America has zero historical precedent for military coup attempts. Defend yourself agasint what? Against the armed forces? Those guns they buy won't do much good. Against criminals? What about all those poeple who live inc ountries where gun ownrship is not so widespread? Are they all getting mugged and murdered regularly? Wild animals? I live in India where elephant and leopard incursion into small towns is nothing new. Some of our biggest cities including the capital have an out of control monkey problem. yet we don't stockpile firearms. So why America?
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#4 User is offline   Tsundoku 

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:17 PM

Because of a national mental problem based on fear, insecurities etc that are actively encouraged by the upper portion of that society who make money from it and keep political power because they use it (among other bullshit) as a distraction. Bread and circuses. It's Rome all over again, without the Pax Romana bit.
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#5 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:23 PM

View PostAndorion, on 02 October 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

... I live in India where elephant and leopard incursion into small towns is nothing new. Some of our biggest cities including the capital have an out of control monkey problem. yet we don't stockpile firearms. So why America?


As a baseline i suspect guns are more available and affordable in the US.
It's also a cultural thing... large chunks of the US grew up being taught that You Defend What's Yours and you do it With Guns.
'Defend from whom' isn't really the sticking point.
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#6 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:32 PM

View PostAbyss, on 02 October 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 02 October 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

.... The state wise national guard system has to a large extent institutionalised that militia. So why is it necessary for ordinary peopel to have guns?


To defend themselves against the state milita, the ordinary people would tell you.

....from their basements where they store six pistols, seventeen automatic assault rifles and enough ammunition for a sunny day in Mogadishu.



I purchased a completely unnecessary FN assault rifle last week simply because I've wanted one for years. And the purchase pretty much scares the crap out of me. It came stock with a 30 round magazine. The store owner asked me if I was sure I didn't want the 50 rounder. Ammunition came in 4 choices: 50 round FN made, 50 round Federal, 500 round Federal, and 2000 round Federal. The owner didn't even offer me the 50s. Had a 500 box on the counter and sincerely tried to upgrade me to the 2000 rounds after I said that 500 would last me for ages by saying, "But you may need more after Obama bans guns."

This post has been edited by Gnaw: 03 October 2015 - 03:07 AM

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#7 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:30 PM

Guns maybe relatively cheaper in the US but here among the rich and the new-rich status symbols are purchased at all costs, be it cars Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Apple phones (even if they don't work half as well as an Android of half the price) gigantic screen tvs etc.

But almost nobody buys and displays guns. That culture is restricted to the scions of the old aristocracy or those delusional idiots who think they are the aristocracy and thats less than a microscopic minority.

Guns are usually associated with criminals, and are a common sight in the less law abiding regions where gangs tote guns openly. But law-abiding citizens owning, and carrying guns especailly in an urban setting.... it just doesn't happen.

I am curious. From the above comments it seems that a mental culture of gun-ownership as a means of self worth exists in the US. Is this a holdover form frontier culture, or is it a deliberate cultural construct?
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Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:41 PM

Deliberate cultural construct present mostly among those who don't live in major cities (which usually have tight controls on guns).

Gun ownership has always been fairly prevalent (I know many, many people who have one and many who have upwards of three) throughout American history, but it wasn't a culturally fetishized thing until maybe the 1970s and 1980s. Most of the people who have guns are white people and the reasons for that are somewhat systemic/institutional.

Not coincidentally, the people going most nuts about gun/ammunition restrictions are white people who are afraid of losing their power/position in society. It also doesn't help that many of the politicians trying to enact gun/ammunition restrictions do not actually understand how guns mechanically work, what the impact of their proposed legislation would be (often different from what they are intending to do), and often make the gun-havers feel threatened with rhetoric.
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#9 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:49 PM

View PostAndorion, on 02 October 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

I am curious. From the above comments it seems that a mental culture of gun-ownership as a means of self worth exists in the US. Is this a holdover form frontier culture, or is it a deliberate cultural construct?


My quick answers would be that the culture is gun ownership in place of self-worth. That's judging by my family and friend's ownership of multiple firearms. And it's mostly a cultural construct of the myths of frontier culture. They praise the guns as tamers of the cowtowns and mining camps without ever acknowledging that the first things most of the town taming lawmen did was outlaw carrying guns within city limits.
"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor Frankl
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Turn order is: Macaw > Nom > IH > ? > Tapper > Blend > Twelve > ? > Morgoth
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#10 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 05:49 PM

View PostGnaw, on 02 October 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 02 October 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

I am curious. From the above comments it seems that a mental culture of gun-ownership as a means of self worth exists in the US. Is this a holdover form frontier culture, or is it a deliberate cultural construct?


My quick answers would be that the culture is gun ownership in place of self-worth. That's judging by my family and friend's ownership of multiple firearms. And it's mostly a cultural construct of the myths of frontier culture. They praise the guns as tamers of the cowtowns and mining camps without ever acknowledging that the first things most of the town taming lawmen did was outlaw carrying guns within city limits.


You are forgetting the massive deification of the 'founding fathers' that has happened recently, along with an utter corruption of what those founding fathers were attempting to do, wrote, and said, to support the viewpoint that clearly everything was better back in the day.

Sadly, there is a large bloc with a lot of money that are able to push the whole 'gun rights/hate government/just be a totally cool independent person because you don't need anyone' thought down the throats of people who are worried about 'dem immigrants' who are just here to make this country worse, clearly.

It's become an entire subculture and the problem is that one of the political parties (of which we have 2 major ones) is embracing/pushing this view to try to galvanize their old, tired, expiring base of racists and idiots.

I work with a number of people who think universal background checks or being forced to report any stolen weapons are bad ideas. These are the same people who think all teachers should be armed because then no one would shoot up a school. Ignore the facts that there were at least (people who have admitted to it) six people in the Aurora Theater shooting who were armed, beyond the shooter, and they didn't magically stop any fucking thing. The thought that 'the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun' needs to be taken out back and beaten with a sack full of used shell casings.

This is the same party that compares macro economics to 'your household checkbook', and suggests that if a law/solution/proposal doesn't fix 100% of the problem, 100% of the time, it isn't worth doing.

Baby Boomers are literally tearing down the structures that allowed them to succeed then telling their kids to shut the fuck up because they were able to make it happen.

If you want to see the US Military deployed to Iran, North Korea, and Mexico, go ahead and vote for any of the GOP candidates.

If you want to see the US Military on Mars, convince them we found terrorists hiding oil there. Problem fucking solved.

I'm totally not ranting because this hasn't been messing with my groove for years.

Anyone thinking that the Second Amendment of the US constitution (yes, it CAN be changed!) means that private citizens should be able to have as many/whatever weapons as they want is willfully blind and needs to take a basic English class.

Also messing with my groove today, just how terrible the south is still being to any minorities, as evidenced by what is going on with the removal of the voting rights requirements from southern states because it just isn't fair. (The fucking thing shouldn't have been removed, it should have been applied to all states).
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#11 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 06:17 PM

View PostObdigore, on 02 October 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

You are forgetting the massive deification of the 'founding fathers' that has happened recently, along with an utter corruption of what those founding fathers were attempting to do, wrote, and said, to support the viewpoint that clearly everything was better back in the day.

Sadly, there is a large bloc with a lot of money that are able to push the whole 'gun rights/hate government/just be a totally cool independent person because you don't need anyone' thought down the throats of people who are worried about 'dem immigrants' who are just here to make this country worse, clearly.



I was speaking of the people buying that deification. In my experience they are mostly mid income at best with the majority being <40k annually. I'm curious how that matches with your co-workers?
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#12 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 06:35 PM

View PostGnaw, on 02 October 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

I was speaking of the people buying that deification. In my experience they are mostly mid income at best with the majority being <40k annually. I'm curious how that matches with your co-workers?

I agree with this - which is why I said something about the people most vocal and most nuts about all this are exactly that lower-middle income category of white people.

Guess which category of people have the most people who go forth and do mass shootings the most?
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#13 User is offline   Grief 

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 02:15 AM

I've decided to move a bunch of posts from the Groove thread here. Please bear in mind that the moved posts were originally intended for the Inn rather than the discussion board. Moving forward, posts will be treated like any others in the discussion area.

A couple of posts have been deleted simply as they aren't really suited for the discussion board and would be stranded without context in the groove thread.

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Grief, FFS will you do something with your sig, it's bloody awful
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#14 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 03:27 AM

Another question. There is a Federal (?) agency called the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Yet it seems that rules and laws regarding gun control, sale and use vary from state to state. So are guns a federal or a state subject?Or are they a shared or Concurrent subject? I don't know how power sharing works in the US. Here we have three lists in our constitution. Union List lists the central subjects, state lists list the state subjects and Concurrent list lists the subject on which both can legislate.
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#15 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 05:35 AM

ATF is indeed federal. Like much in America, gun laws have the tiers of federal, state, and local jurisdictions.

It's interesting, because from what I've read ~90% of all guns used in crimes are traceable to just 5% of gun dealers. It's an incredible stat (here's a recent article that mentions it: http://www.cnn.com/2...ss-gun-dealers/ though that's not where I heard it) and begs the question why aren't these particular dealers being dealt with? You would think enforcement of existing laws would be enough to cork that leak. What's preventing that from happening?
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#16 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 06:05 AM

Also I have heard, but found it almost impossible to believe that guns can be purchased online or through gunfairs(? Not sure) without very thorough background checks and procedures.

Is this actually true?

I understand that most of the pro-gun lobby is white, and conservative. I believe it is this same demographic who are worried about ISIS and Islamic terrorists infiltrating the US. So doesn't it strike them that with these lax conditions it would be extremely easy for a terrorist or a would be terrorist to acquire fire arms and do great damage?
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#17 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 06:26 AM

View PostAndorion, on 03 October 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

Also I have heard, but found it almost impossible to believe that guns can be purchased online or through gunfairs(? Not sure) without very thorough background checks and procedures.

Is this actually true?

I understand that most of the pro-gun lobby is white, and conservative. I believe it is this same demographic who are worried about ISIS and Islamic terrorists infiltrating the US. So doesn't it strike them that with these lax conditions it would be extremely easy for a terrorist or a would be terrorist to acquire fire arms and do great damage?


Uh. Andorion, you might want to just give up on trying to understand this. Why? Because:

  • https://www.google.c...gun+classifieds
  • People on the terrorist watch list have successfully purchased guns. Several hundred times. When the dealer runs their name through the NICS they're flagged but the dealer isn't told and the sale goes through.
  • Those Mexican cartels that kill several thousand people each year? They get their guns from US gun stores. Our DEA even sold them guns.



As for a terrorist acquiring guns and doing great damage? It depends upon what you call a terrorist. Po tay to, pa tah to. According to the foxnews crowd the apartheid loving white supremacist in Charleston who killed black people after telling them that he was going to kill them because they were back was just a mentally ill person. But the IRA loving white supremacist at UCC is a terrorist because he killed Christians after telling them that he was going to kill them because they were christians. The day Christians were martyred on American soil. {I didn't even bother reading the article; the title tells me all I need to know about it. It's late and I don't want to get my blood pressure back up.)
"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor Frankl
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#18 User is online   Briar King 

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 06:31 AM

Yes we have gun fairs about 4 times a yr in my city.
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#19 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 07:32 AM

View PostGnaw, on 03 October 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 03 October 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

Also I have heard, but found it almost impossible to believe that guns can be purchased online or through gunfairs(? Not sure) without very thorough background checks and procedures.

Is this actually true?

I understand that most of the pro-gun lobby is white, and conservative. I believe it is this same demographic who are worried about ISIS and Islamic terrorists infiltrating the US. So doesn't it strike them that with these lax conditions it would be extremely easy for a terrorist or a would be terrorist to acquire fire arms and do great damage?


Uh. Andorion, you might want to just give up on trying to understand this. Why? Because:

  • https://www.google.c...gun+classifieds
  • People on the terrorist watch list have successfully purchased guns. Several hundred times. When the dealer runs their name through the NICS they're flagged but the dealer isn't told and the sale goes through.
  • Those Mexican cartels that kill several thousand people each year? They get their guns from US gun stores. Our DEA even sold them guns.



As for a terrorist acquiring guns and doing great damage? It depends upon what you call a terrorist. Po tay to, pa tah to. According to the foxnews crowd the apartheid loving white supremacist in Charleston who killed black people after telling them that he was going to kill them because they were back was just a mentally ill person. But the IRA loving white supremacist at UCC is a terrorist because he killed Christians after telling them that he was going to kill them because they were christians. The day Christians were martyred on American soil. {I didn't even bother reading the article; the title tells me all I need to know about it. It's late and I don't want to get my blood pressure back up.)


Yeah I am getting the idea that my initial approach to the situation was naive. The problems created by the situation are evident, but nothing can be done due to a deep-rooted culture of denial, created for politics and profit.

I am assuming Obama can't do anything without legislative cooperation.

I never thought that a developed modern western country could have a problem like this. It doesn't even seem to be a relic of the dead past, but a recent, created problem.

My country has many, many problems, some of them so horrific that it beggars belief. But at least we can trace back about 70% of the problems to the colonial period. I always thought America would be better.

My time on this forum has been quite educative in this regard.
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#20 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 09:19 AM

I know we're in discussion, but lee nelson hits the nail on the head



America and guns.

What a can of worms, I've had the debate with a few Americans when holidaying over the last few years, and a disturbing amount were of the 'well criminals have them so I need them' mentality or 'theres so many guns now, there's no point restricting their purchase'.
What the actual fuck?
We have 2 guns, a shotgun and a .22 rifle, we shoot crows that are eating our barley. They remain locked in a safe with ammo when not used and when I saw we I mean my dad as I ain't allowed to use them, nothing to do with being too imature (a fair enough point though it would be) its because my dad is the owner and license holder for them. And its a slow process to get a license, it has to be renewed, and hoops need to be constantly jumped through.
I know neighbours who have had their licenses (all farmers, most will have a shotgun for crow control) revoked and guns confiscated just for telling a government official 'if you don't get the fuck off my land I'll go get my gun!' Not actually getting the gun, just a verbal threat.

Being able to walk into a store and buy a gun like a kid buys candy is not, and never will be, a good system. There NEEDS to be checks and measures in place, Americans need to lose this hard on they have for weapons, this idea of associating them with manliness and all the rest.
Not sure where this was going.
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