[amphibian]

This was a hate crime and now already the second deadliest shooting worldwide.

Awful, awful news to wake up to and it's the 173rd mass shooting in 2016. 173.

[Andorion]

I posted a link to the Groove thread. Horrible thing to happen

Seems the guy is a Muslim. Wondering if that is a factor?

[Hairshirt]

Apparently the shooter called 911 and pledged his allegiance to ISIS during the standoff. So we can assume Islam was a factor, considering their stance on homosexuality and tossing them off buildings, stonings and other various horrendous acts.

[Tsundoku]

I predict the NRA will - after several days of careful deliberation and soul-searching - commiserate with the victims but use this to ask for even more, deadlier weapons to be available without any form of background checks.

Because as we all know the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. And just look how many times good guys with legal weapons have stopped mass shootings. Amirite?

I wonder what the Republicans et al will make of this because a bunch of gays (unChristian sodomites) getting whacked in a nightclub (lewdness, criminals and drugs, of course) in Florida (full of Cubans and Democrats) by a Muslim is like their masturbation material, right?

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 13 June 2016 - 11:10 AM

[Cause]

Its very scary. In light of the terror warnings in My country I was discussing with a friend, who is a security consultant, that a mass shooting is a very effective terror weapon often as, if not more effective than bombs. Requires no training and little budget.

I reckon any one with a will to kill and a willingness to die. Plus between 1 and 3 thousand dollars could walk into any public place in my country with an ak47 and start shooting people. Effective police response time would probably be over ten minutes and Closer to 30.

I imagine the same is true for practically anywhere.

[Gorefest]

Don't think it is that easy to acquire guns in most Western European countries. There was this French bloke the other week who'd traveled out to Ukrain to obtain a small arsenal for use during Euro2016 and he got done in.

[Abyss]

Tsundoku, on 13 June 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

I predict the NRA will - after several days of careful deliberation and soul-searching - commiserate with the victims but use this to ask for even more, deadlier weapons to be available without any form of background checks.

Because as we all know the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. And just look how many times good guys with legal weapons have stopped mass shootings. Amirite?

I wonder what the Republicans et al will make of this because a bunch of gays (unChristian sodomites) getting whacked in a nightclub (lewdness, criminals and drugs, of course) in Florida (full of Cubans and Democrats) by a Muslim is like their masturbation material, right?

Well, in keeping with the trend of "Today we are all Parisians" and Today we are all Belgians" I fully expect the Republicans to come out with a strong statement that "Today we are all Latino LGBT Floridians!!!".

...or not.

[Tapper]

Abyss, on 13 June 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 13 June 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

I predict the NRA will - after several days of careful deliberation and soul-searching - commiserate with the victims but use this to ask for even more, deadlier weapons to be available without any form of background checks.

Because as we all know the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. And just look how many times good guys with legal weapons have stopped mass shootings. Amirite?

I wonder what the Republicans et al will make of this because a bunch of gays (unChristian sodomites) getting whacked in a nightclub (lewdness, criminals and drugs, of course) in Florida (full of Cubans and Democrats) by a Muslim is like their masturbation material, right?

Well, in keeping with the trend of "Today we are all Parisians" and Today we are all Belgians" I fully expect the Republicans to come out with a strong statement that "Today we are all Latino LGBT Floridians!!!".

...or not.

Now that would be beautiful. I bet they get no further than "We're all... people."

[Gorefest]

Yeah, it's a bit odd. If they had targeted a synagogue it would be an anti semitic terrorist attack, if they had targeted a mosque it would have been an anti islamic terrorist attack, now they target a gay club and all the media outlets are tumbling over themselves in their efforts to portray that it is a terrorist attack against 'human beings'. And if someone even claims that it is a targeted attack on the LGBT community they get shouted down for being narrow-minded. Hrm. It still feels like a weird sort of latent homophobia to me from the media, to stress the terrorist side of things while glossing over the choice of target.

[Hairshirt]

I disagree, it's more complicated than just it was a hate crime against LBGT or it's is just terrorism. It's both really, it's an attack against LBGT specifically because of this terrorists extreme religious leanings. I don't think a reporter saying terrorism instead of homophobia is that big of a difference, it's implied for me at least. What's wierd is as I'm sitting on my car typing this on my lunch hour the news reports have mentioned the attack 3 times already and each time have referenced the attack took place at a gay bar, or that the targets were homosexual. The fact that the victims were gay isn't being hidden.

[Abyss]

It's not all media at all, but there is a specific segment - Fox News and co - that is being all outraged by the attack but not acknowledging the specific group that was attacked. It's a club, not a gay club, the victims were people, not gays... etc. So some of the media narrative is focusing on the media narrative... media Ouroboros if you will.

There are a thousand places in Orlando he could have gone to that would have been as public, as busy, as easy a target or easier. He didn't pick those.

[Nicodimas]

Abyss, on 13 June 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

It's not all media at all, but there is a specific segment - Fox News and co - that is being all outraged by the attack but not acknowledging the specific group that was attacked. It's a club, not a gay club, the victims were people, not gays... etc. So some of the media narrative is focusing on the media narrative... media Ouroboros if you will.

There are a thousand places in Orlando he could have gone to that would have been as public, as busy, as easy a target or easier. He didn't pick those.

I consider this a Hate crime first, 2nd terrorist attack since he swore his allegiance to ISIS.

Truly a tragedy and prayers out to victims and their families. The background on the club itself is really touching and I emplore everyone to read about it. I wish the media focused more about this part.

@ Abyss: Hearing that he also *scouted* DisneyWorld too. Super sad.

My thoughts:

Spoiler

Counterpoint:

This guy followed the rules set forth by the government. So he acquired said gun's legally. He was trained and intent on harming clearly. He was interviewed by the FBI 1-3 times and they absolved themselves of responsibility. The police took how long to get there? The police took how long to get tacted out and get in there? He had previous problems with domestic violence per the ex-wife <was their a restraining order on file, why didn't NIC's pick up on that>. All sort's of thing's to ponder on this one and I am sure their will be lot's of training behind the scenes.

This man had 50 killed/53 injured with an Ar-15 (that may, or may not have been automatic in nature), that means he was able to cycle through what 8 magazines at minimum ? I'm thinking we are going to hear at least 240 bullets fired from a single person shooter in eight minutes over the course of three hours total. More information should come to light here as the week goes on.

So, The police didn't show up until after the shooting started and raided 3 hours later. The FBI interviewed this person multiple times for whatever reason. The police aren't going to protect you, until after the fact. He went through a legal system of check's and balance's to acquire said weapon.

Feel Safe?

The only person that could have protected them is themselves. They were stripped of these weapons and ability to self-protect. It is your responsbility to protect and keep yourself safe. Your loved ones safe. The paid goverment agent's seem to respond after the incident happens.


FACT: If you in United States you live in a country with more than 350 million+ firearms, these aren't going nowhere with the constitution in place. It's your duty as a citizen to self protect you and those around you.

Sidebar:

Arguing over if the bad guy is going to use a particular tool is illogical. They are going to use whichever cause's the most terror. Arguing over bullet count and all that is illogical if it takes the police three hours to raid said place. For trauma a situation it's the golden hour for a reason. The only person that could have done anything would have been someone there and trained.

Second Sidebar:

The demograph...There is a organization called Pink Pistols that is dedicated toward self protecting and keeping your fellow citizens safe. I don't like the argument that this demographic is somehow helpless. Yeah.. right.


Stay safe out there.

To the Anti-Gunners: I get the concerns of black-guns in this particular situation. There's always going to be holes in my <everyones> opinion, but this is the way I see reality. If your going to argue, bring it, but stay inside the confines of reality.

.

[worry]

Hate crimes are terrorism. The reasons for differentiating between them are sociopolitical, with assumptions about victims and perpetrators baked in. It's shameful.

[Hairshirt]

worry, on 13 June 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

Hate crimes are terrorism. The reasons for differentiating between them are sociopolitical, with assumptions about victims and perpetrators baked in. It's shameful.

Exactly. Unfortunately in the States the media is either far left or far right even with the vast majority falling in the middle. On the left the narrative is gun control, and shock at "how could this possibly happen???" On the right it's "Look it's true! All Muslims are terrorists!" Both narratives play to what their percieved audience, in the case of news networks or to electorate in the case of politicians. The majority of us are left scratching our heads trying to get down to the truth which is usually somewhere in between. Islamic extremism is a major problem and does actually exist, and it wouldn't hurt to actually do some tougher background checks for purchasing weapons.

[worry]

I don't really agree that the media are far left and far right (more like mediocre kowtowing moderate liberals & the corporate racist fear-mongering right) -- it'd take a miracle to give us a true left major news source -- but yeah they do like to boil things down to 1 to 1.5 issues and leave it at that. Or they treat it like a pie chart, where if you add 5 points to mental health you have to subtract 5 points from other issues.

[LinearPhilosopher]

worry, on 13 June 2016 - 11:37 PM, said:

I don't really agree that the media are far left and far right (more like mediocre kowtowing moderate liberals & the corporate racist fear-mongering right) -- it'd take a miracle to give us a true left major news source -- but yeah they do like to boil things down to 1 to 1.5 issues and leave it at that. Or they treat it like a pie chart, where if you add 5 points to mental health you have to subtract 5 points from other issues.

TYT's pretty left.

Still another issue and i doubt the status quo will so much as budge. Rather than tragedies being the mechanism for change, they are mechanisms that reinforce existing systems. Which in turn ensure that tragedies will continue to occur.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 14 June 2016 - 12:55 AM

[Nicodimas]

Hairshirt, on 13 June 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

worry, on 13 June 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

Hate crimes are terrorism. The reasons for differentiating between them are sociopolitical, with assumptions about victims and perpetrators baked in. It's shameful.

Exactly. Unfortunately in the States the media is either far left or far right even with the vast majority falling in the middle. On the left the narrative is gun control, and shock at "how could this possibly happen???" On the right it's "Look it's true! All Muslims are terrorists!" Both narratives play to what their percieved audience, in the case of news networks or to electorate in the case of politicians. The majority of us are left scratching our heads trying to get down to the truth which is usually somewhere in between. Islamic extremism is a major problem and does actually exist, and it wouldn't hurt to actually do some tougher background checks for purchasing weapons.

I have no problem with adding tougher background information, but here is the thing: If this guy was interviewed 1-3 times by the FBI and I guess absolved.( I don't know how this interview, or probe went in any shape or form. I just have an idea in my head...). How is a background check of any sort not going to be beaten by a semi-intelligent driven person? I am really left pondering this point in particular as everyone here should be if the above is remotely true.

The authorities are going to deconstruct everything that led to this and I am going to let them do their thing.

[Cause]

The problem though, Nicodimas, is that I believe statistically you are still more likely to be a victim of your own gun than a mass shooting terrorist or even a crime. Whether suicide, shot by your own child or having your gun turned on you by the criminals you bought it to protect yourself from. The truth is that 9/10 gun owners, probably more, should not own them. I know your a firm believer in training but the average gun owner buys a gun, shoots 50 rounds at the range a year and leaves their gun in a draw in their office or next to the bed.

That said realising how vulnerable I would be to a shooter in a mall or the like, I do feel like I should own one. The reality is though for the other 99.99% of the time for me it would just be a liability.

[Macros]

This might have been made up, but I had someone tout a statistic you're still 30* more likely to be shot by a cop than a terrorist in America?

[Gust Hubb]

Depends on what race you are Macros.