[Obdigore]

 Tsundoku, on 07 October 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

 Obdigore, on 07 October 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

Wait, why are we apologizing to Nico because under his suggestions this thing would be even more common. He is espousing giving everyone guns and just letting people shoot each other, including children.

Mate, that's a bit harsh. Nico isn't saying that. He's advocating greater education and enforcement of current laws, plus I believe more secure storage, so I think you've drawn a long bow there. I'd call him a gun advocate, but not a gun nut.

Really? You saw what he posted, right?

Quote

A) Mandatory gun training in grade school-high school on all weapons systems.
Install a culture of self defense/physical training in children, you don't need to resort to a weapon...
C) Hold Doctors accountable for giving children (Mind Warping) SSRI drugs and then yanking them.
D) Institute a Policy of legal concealed carry nation-wide with no permit needed.
E) Figure out ways to prevent and ban gun-free zones
F) Research mind altering drugs side effects from big Pharma on a larger scale
G) Create a List for people that are Anti-gun, figure out ways to re-educate this part of the populace.
H) Government subsidized National Gun Care program, every year allow money for each citizen toward buying a gun, ammo and training.

He's essentially saying 'lets make every citizen (hint, children are citizens too) have a weapon, train them how to hit their targets, and make sure they have accessible ammunition.

The link previously posted about the child shooting another child is the exact result of what Nico is suggesting.

And let's not forget he is suggesting forced re-education of anyone who is 'anti-gun', which is anyone with a functional brain, according to the NRA.

[Tsundoku]

A isn't so bad, but I'll admit D, E, G an H are a little concerning. But then again, aren't we advocating a reverse form of G ourselves?

At least he's talking about doing things within a legal framework, and not just cradling a shotgun in his rocking chair on the porch and muttering about the "durn guv'mint".

[Calm's Peace]

Relates to the culture part of the gun debate. The issue is so large in complex that I wouldn't even to try to imagine it could be fixed by changing just one thing or one idea...
Around where I grew up as a child, everyone (African American, Caucasian, Native American, and Hispanic) hunted to provide for their families. 80% of the meat we consumed was from hunting/fishing. As a child, I went hunting starting at a young age. Every child around me went hunting and handled guns. I can honestly say without that meat we would of lived in poverty. Life revolved around hunting and gardening because these things were necessary for our family to live a good quality of life. These are type of people you will never get guns from. A gun isn't a toy or trinket, it is as important as the salary they pull. They aren't trying to protect against the government..they're trying to feed their families as their parents have done for generations. It is legitimately a way of life, and it is imprinted in them at a young age. I will agree this is not the majority of gun owners, however, they are an important minority. A minority that often serves in specialized divisions of the US military.

Confiscation doesn't work in the rural areas. They bury the guns.

[Andorion]

 Tsundoku, on 07 October 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

A isn't so bad, but I'll admit D, E, G an H are a little concerning. But then again, aren't we advocating a reverse form of G ourselves?

At least he's talking about doing things within a legal framework, and not just cradling a shotgun in his rocking chair on the porch and muttering about the "durn guv'mint".

"Little concerning"? No permit concealed carry.... just sit back and think about that one.
No Gun free zones? What about hospitals? Counselling and rehab centres where guns might be triggers? Hell the Secret Service would all die from heart attacks as the President would have to address armed rallies.

'Re-education' is a very very very loaded term.

And who is going to finance the subsidy? I raised the finance point earlier as well.

Just imagine. an entire society where everybody is armed to the teeth, trained and ready to fight. Reminds me of early Sparta.

What is to prevent everybody from killing everybody else?

In that society that 8 year old girl would have her own gun and she would probably have shot back. So instead of one dead kid, you would have two dead kids.

[Vengeance]

 Andorion, on 07 October 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

Just imagine. an entire society where everybody is armed to the teeth, trained and ready to fight. Reminds me of early Sparta.

Reminds me of Afghanistan,Iraq,somolia,Syria,Yemen,Sudan,Libia

All of those are places where everyone has a gun and can easily get one. Lots of people want to live there and feel totally safe every day.

[QuickTidal]

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

 Andorion, on 07 October 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

Just imagine. an entire society where everybody is armed to the teeth, trained and ready to fight. Reminds me of early Sparta.

Reminds me of Afghanistan,Iraq,somolia,Syria,Yemen,Sudan,Libia

All of those are places where everyone has a gun and can easily get one. Lots of people want to live there and feel totally safe every day.

Source?

Last I heard there were lots of inhabitants in those countries who don't have a gun or guns. The idea that "everyone" has them there is fallacious at the least, and categorically incorrect stereotyping at worst.

EDIT: Re-reading this, it comes off as snarkier than it is intended to be. I am honestly asking for as source for the claim that all people in those countries have guns or can get guns easily as I don't think that's accurate.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 07 October 2015 - 04:20 PM

[Vengeance]

 QuickTidal, on 07 October 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

 Andorion, on 07 October 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

Just imagine. an entire society where everybody is armed to the teeth, trained and ready to fight. Reminds me of early Sparta.

Reminds me of Afghanistan,Iraq,somolia,Syria,Yemen,Sudan,Libia

All of those are places where everyone has a gun and can easily get one. Lots of people want to live there and feel totally safe every day.

Source?

Last I heard there were lots of inhabitants in those countries who don't have a gun or guns. The idea that "everyone" has them there is fallacious at the least, and categorically incorrect stereotyping at worst.

Seems like an American mentality of "What I see on the news is how that country operates on the whole, and is representative of the entire populace who live there." which is a pretty narrow view.

You have obviously never seen or head of the gun bazzars. Just a taste.

Iraq

Noet that the Yemen article is from 2002 before the start of the civil war. 3 guns for every citzen. I am sure that it has became better since.

Yemen

Now the Somelia one may actually be a little better.
Somelia


Libya

Lebanon/Syria


While it is true that not every single person over there has a gun. They certainly can purchase anything that they want with ease.


Pakistan/afganistan

[Vengeance]

In those zones it is extremely easy to purchase/acquire almost any gun that you want.

[amphibian]

 Andorion, on 07 October 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

 EmperorMagus, on 07 October 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

I'm sorry Nico.
http://www.theguardi...puppies-sheriff

I..... I don't even know what to say.

A little girl is dead.
Her family is possibly destroyed
An 11 year olds life is ruined.
All because some criminally stupid person left a loaded shotgun within reach of a child.
I hope they try that person for the murder of the girl

“Children are dying."

Lull nodded. "That's a succinct summary of humankind, I'd say. Who needs tomes and volumes of history? Children are dying. The injustices of the world hide in those three words.”

- Steven Erikson, Deadhouse Gates

[QuickTidal]

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

In those zones it is extremely easy to purchase/acquire almost any gun that you want.

But then wasn't the initial comment from Andorion about "everyone being armed to the teeth" like Sparta...which you equated to those places...but that's not really a good analogy if "everyone" isn't actually armed to the teeth. And having access to purchase of weapons does not lead to the inevitable purchase of weapons AFAIK.

[Andorion]

 QuickTidal, on 07 October 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

In those zones it is extremely easy to purchase/acquire almost any gun that you want.

But then wasn't the initial comment from Andorion about "everyone being armed to the teeth" like Sparta...which you equated to those places...but that's not really a good analogy if "everyone" isn't actually armed to the teeth. And having access to purchase of weapons does not lead to the inevitable purchase of weapons AFAIK.

To my knowledge there has never on Earth been a society where 'everyone' has been armed to the teeth. Physical ability, financial affluence and social mores have usually shaped the distribution of violence. I mentioned Sparta because that was a society where combat and proficiency in combat were exalted above all else to the extent the single most desirable goal of the adult male citizen was to become a warrior.

Regarding the places mentioned, Somalia has been in a state of flux for quite some time, Iraq has been fucked up since 2003, I am not so sure about the others, but regarding Pakistan I can tell you that there are vast parts of the country were rule of law does not exist. Might is right and local warlords/political strongmen/army leaders hold the key.

So the availability of firearms and the possession and use of firearms probably serve a dual purpose:

1. Self Defence
2. Attempts by smaller powers to topple existing powers/ fill the power vacuum etc


My point is in a Westernised liberal society where rule of law, courts, police etc are supposed to work why would anybody even begin to want to implement a system like this?

What is to stop everybody killing everybody? Because people, given the opportunity can and will shoot at each other over the most petty things.

[Vengeance]

 QuickTidal, on 07 October 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

In those zones it is extremely easy to purchase/acquire almost any gun that you want.

But then wasn't the initial comment from Andorion about "everyone being armed to the teeth" like Sparta...which you equated to those places...but that's not really a good analogy if "everyone" isn't actually armed to the teeth. And having access to purchase of weapons does not lead to the inevitable purchase of weapons AFAIK.

Oh I think that if you can buy a AK-47 for 750 then every one is armed to the teeth. When there are more guns in a country then citizens then everyone is armed to the teeth. I am not really sure what you wanted me to show in order to demonstrate that people in those countries are armed and are able to buy weapons with out any regulation at all. I think that you want an actual census where every single citizen lists the guns that they have. I think I will just trust that VICE actually does there homework. You are sadly naive if you think that having that kind of access to guns in an environment where people are snatched off of the streets and kidnapped or homes are broken into and entire villages carted off that every one doesn't have guns. Horrible sentence I know but still. Everyone has guns there or are dead or are fleeing. Even if they have guns they are still fleeing. If they weren't then there wouldn't be a massive immigration problem in Europe and genocides being perpetrated in those countries.

[Vengeance]

 Andorion, on 07 October 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 07 October 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

In those zones it is extremely easy to purchase/acquire almost any gun that you want.

But then wasn't the initial comment from Andorion about "everyone being armed to the teeth" like Sparta...which you equated to those places...but that's not really a good analogy if "everyone" isn't actually armed to the teeth. And having access to purchase of weapons does not lead to the inevitable purchase of weapons AFAIK.

To my knowledge there has never on Earth been a society where 'everyone' has been armed to the teeth. Physical ability, financial affluence and social mores have usually shaped the distribution of violence. I mentioned Sparta because that was a society where combat and proficiency in combat were exalted above all else to the extent the single most desirable goal of the adult male citizen was to become a warrior.

Regarding the places mentioned, Somalia has been in a state of flux for quite some time, Iraq has been fucked up since 2003, I am not so sure about the others, but regarding Pakistan I can tell you that there are vast parts of the country were rule of law does not exist. Might is right and local warlords/political strongmen/army leaders hold the key.

So the availability of firearms and the possession and use of firearms probably serve a dual purpose:

1. Self Defence
2. Attempts by smaller powers to topple existing powers/ fill the power vacuum etc


My point is in a Westernised liberal society where rule of law, courts, police etc are supposed to work why would anybody even begin to want to implement a system like this?

What is to stop everybody killing everybody? Because people, given the opportunity can and will shoot at each other over the most petty things.

Afghanistan has been in constant war since the 1980s. Sudan has been involved in two civil wars and rampant ethnic cleansing. Libya has became a free for all since Gaddafi was killed. Syria has been in the middle of a cival war/ fragmentation war since 2011.

[Andorion]

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

 Andorion, on 07 October 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 07 October 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

In those zones it is extremely easy to purchase/acquire almost any gun that you want.

But then wasn't the initial comment from Andorion about "everyone being armed to the teeth" like Sparta...which you equated to those places...but that's not really a good analogy if "everyone" isn't actually armed to the teeth. And having access to purchase of weapons does not lead to the inevitable purchase of weapons AFAIK.

To my knowledge there has never on Earth been a society where 'everyone' has been armed to the teeth. Physical ability, financial affluence and social mores have usually shaped the distribution of violence. I mentioned Sparta because that was a society where combat and proficiency in combat were exalted above all else to the extent the single most desirable goal of the adult male citizen was to become a warrior.

Regarding the places mentioned, Somalia has been in a state of flux for quite some time, Iraq has been fucked up since 2003, I am not so sure about the others, but regarding Pakistan I can tell you that there are vast parts of the country were rule of law does not exist. Might is right and local warlords/political strongmen/army leaders hold the key.

So the availability of firearms and the possession and use of firearms probably serve a dual purpose:

1. Self Defence
2. Attempts by smaller powers to topple existing powers/ fill the power vacuum etc


My point is in a Westernised liberal society where rule of law, courts, police etc are supposed to work why would anybody even begin to want to implement a system like this?

What is to stop everybody killing everybody? Because people, given the opportunity can and will shoot at each other over the most petty things.

Afghanistan has been in constant war since the 1980s. Sudan has been involved in two civil wars and rampant ethnic cleansing. Libya has became a free for all since Gaddafi was killed. Syria has been in the middle of a cival war/ fragmentation war since 2011.

Yes, recently (except Afghanistan) all of these have been in chaos. But that just reinforces my point. Therse situatiosn don't even come close to paralleling anything in the West. So why have a hypothetical 100% gun state?

Sorry if I sound like a broken record but I always end up with the why. Why would you want to turn a democratic law-abiding society into a gun wielding free for all?

[Vengeance]

 Andorion, on 07 October 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

 Andorion, on 07 October 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 07 October 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

In those zones it is extremely easy to purchase/acquire almost any gun that you want.

But then wasn't the initial comment from Andorion about "everyone being armed to the teeth" like Sparta...which you equated to those places...but that's not really a good analogy if "everyone" isn't actually armed to the teeth. And having access to purchase of weapons does not lead to the inevitable purchase of weapons AFAIK.

To my knowledge there has never on Earth been a society where 'everyone' has been armed to the teeth. Physical ability, financial affluence and social mores have usually shaped the distribution of violence. I mentioned Sparta because that was a society where combat and proficiency in combat were exalted above all else to the extent the single most desirable goal of the adult male citizen was to become a warrior.

Regarding the places mentioned, Somalia has been in a state of flux for quite some time, Iraq has been fucked up since 2003, I am not so sure about the others, but regarding Pakistan I can tell you that there are vast parts of the country were rule of law does not exist. Might is right and local warlords/political strongmen/army leaders hold the key.

So the availability of firearms and the possession and use of firearms probably serve a dual purpose:

1. Self Defence
2. Attempts by smaller powers to topple existing powers/ fill the power vacuum etc


My point is in a Westernised liberal society where rule of law, courts, police etc are supposed to work why would anybody even begin to want to implement a system like this?

What is to stop everybody killing everybody? Because people, given the opportunity can and will shoot at each other over the most petty things.

Afghanistan has been in constant war since the 1980s. Sudan has been involved in two civil wars and rampant ethnic cleansing. Libya has became a free for all since Gaddafi was killed. Syria has been in the middle of a cival war/ fragmentation war since 2011.

Yes, recently (except Afghanistan) all of these have been in chaos. But that just reinforces my point. Therse situatiosn don't even come close to paralleling anything in the West. So why have a hypothetical 100% gun state?

Sorry if I sound like a broken record but I always end up with the why. Why would you want to turn a democratic law-abiding society into a gun wielding free for all?

Oh I agree with you.

[QuickTidal]

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 07 October 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

 Vengeance, on 07 October 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

In those zones it is extremely easy to purchase/acquire almost any gun that you want.

But then wasn't the initial comment from Andorion about "everyone being armed to the teeth" like Sparta...which you equated to those places...but that's not really a good analogy if "everyone" isn't actually armed to the teeth. And having access to purchase of weapons does not lead to the inevitable purchase of weapons AFAIK.

Oh I think that if you can buy a AK-47 for 750 then every one is armed to the teeth. When there are more guns in a country then citizens then everyone is armed to the teeth. I am not really sure what you wanted me to show in order to demonstrate that people in those countries are armed and are able to buy weapons with out any regulation at all. I think that you want an actual census where every single citizen lists the guns that they have. I think I will just trust that VICE actually does there homework. You are sadly naive if you think that having that kind of access to guns in an environment where people are snatched off of the streets and kidnapped or homes are broken into and entire villages carted off that every one doesn't have guns. Horrible sentence I know but still. Everyone has guns there or are dead or are fleeing. Even if they have guns they are still fleeing. If they weren't then there wouldn't be a massive immigration problem in Europe and genocides being perpetrated in those countries.

Okay, I just didn't think it fair to label those whole countries as examples in their whole. It's a different dynamic at play (as Andorion mentions) entirely, and as such has a different set of daily life rules from the West. No one is saying that's right, but North America doesn't live under the threat in of constant unrest as a place like Afghanistan does, for example. So I'm not sure why we can conflate the two, and not especially en masse.

Also, Re: VICE. Aren't they partially owned by FOX and A&E [Disney/Hearst)? And isn't it a lot of disaster-tourism peddled to the counter-culture? I dunno. I'm entertained by VICE as much as the next person, but I'm not going to buy what they are selling me whole hog. The anti-CNN is still a corporate-backed news outlet.

[Nicodimas]

 Obdigore, on 07 October 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

Wait, why are we apologizing to Nico because under his suggestions this thing would be even more common. He is espousing giving everyone guns and just letting people shoot each other, including children.

I am letting everyone. Oh my!! Look at all my power I have now, how neat. Also remember this is just one mans opinion. I really feel you may be taking this out of context and applying your view of how it looks, versus how such programs would actually work. Eddie Eagle is very age appropriate. As of today, we have to figure out how to co-exist and the goal is to make us all safer. I never would want anyone to be hurt, or killed. I see this from a different angle then you as I have accepted guns are here to stay-- a long time ago.

Obdigore- Questions for you, just for curiosity

A) Do you think it's wrong to send our most precious asset we have that are defenceless themselves and then post Gun-free Zone signs outside the place.

Do you believe the media should moderate these school shooting, or censor these shootings effectively? I realize the negative implications and what this sounds like. However, this would be a Media censor. +/-

I will give you a point, if the government wanted to do a gun buy back that's cool with me. Following the same program Australia did after doing research though this would indicate roughly 40 million guns could be taken.

@ Gnaw
All those are sensible. I believe you would face a huge climb on the ammo restrictions are tough due to the reloading community. I can't quite navigate the black gun argument and have been considering the implications. Some of them are important to maintain for a safe future moving forward from how I see the world currently. However, I don't have a problem really with restrictions if we as a Society decide to move forward. The problem will always result when the other side always always goes to complete removal. It flags too many alarms. I would argue I have a way more trusting attitude of the government than most, like I don't believe the TRUTH movement. Many many people do it seems, i dont see how any TRUTHER would ever let go of the 2nd amendment in any shape, or form. Think on that.

I don't think complete removal will ever happen, so to approach this argument with logic we need to work with technology and Psychology. The first step is to reduce the violence and make people feel safe and work on the current criminal system. I would further add +X years to a charge for accessory of a crime where someone else has a gun. Make that a national standard. I think Texas does something similar to this now, but for deadly crimes.

@ all:

In the next decade there will be a new way to acquire guns with E-guns, Obama just <this week> tried to squelch this with making it illegal to share these plans. I think technology will win out <it always will> and in twenty years with 3-D printers, we will have people literally able print guns. Food for thought.
.. Following numbers 20/million new guns sell y/y. So in the next decade 300+-> 500+ million total guns following trends.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 07 October 2015 - 08:44 PM

[Nicodimas]

@Andorion (original poster)

Evil exists. I guess at the end of the day it comes just down to it's Unalienable right. Every person has the basic right to be able to self-protect. By telling a certain part of the populace they cannot self protect is just wrong. I guess it's a culture difference in where freedom's are generated from then.

http://www.unalienable.com/unalien.htm

[worry]

That's an interesting perspective. I suppose in principle I agree that self-protection is an unalienable right. On the other hand, arms are inherently unnatural, so how can bearing them be a natural right? It seems to me like suggesting God gave everyone the right to bear graphing calculators. How do you reconcile this, except by affirming an arms race at the individual level?

On another note, as we all know the Constitution uses broad language on purpose to limit the government, not the people. It very distinctly names which privileges belong to citizens alone (like voting rights), and generally leaves the language more inclusive for other things like the Bill of Rights. And yet we're seeing a lot of variance in interpretations, and though not 100% partisan still often from the right, that presume or imagine from whole cloth or (if they have power) forcing into reality the notion that a lot of protections belong to citizens alone or citizens and a very limited selection of non-citizens. The 2nd Amendment is a hub for this kind of legislative and judicial debate. Just a couple months ago an appeals court judge ruled that even undocumented immigrants had the right to bear arms: http://www.jsonline....-322737461.html but there have been several rulings at equivalent levels that suggest just the opposite. I wouldn't be surprised to see Constitutional originalists and living-documenters alike fall on both sides of this issue, frankly. Where do you fall, Nico? Does the 2nd Amendment cover only citizens?

[Nicodimas]

Well that's an interesting argument. I am sure we have some really amazing people that know the specifics of law better than me for certain on this one. Off the top of my head it would work like this:

If I travel to a different country which laws are different then mine, I am held to their laws while visiting and my laws correct when returning? I can be prosecuted there and here. Like say it's legal to buy prescription drugs in Mexico and I move boundaries with them to Arizona. I get can get in trouble if I cross the Arizona Border due to our laws? Correct?

However, yes I want to say the 14th Amendment protects an individual here, but may not protect someone if they go to there home country. You have to show ID to even purchase one first of all. Like if you are on a temporary visa when you buy a gun I believe FBI NIC's check's against the country code to see if you can sell to that countries resident. A foreign country may not allow that to start. Every time this came up it was denied, or held. So if they had a gun it could be deemed an illegal buy, cause to my knowledge person to person people have to have state ID to sell. You have to exercise due diligence in a person to person gun sale. So I guess that would fall on the person doing the selling. The reason I bring this up is if picked up for having a Gun, I honestly don't know if a person has citizen-ship in a different county and that item is illegal there that US would send them back for prosecution. Anyone?

However to answer your question if a person has a gun the 14th Amendment applies to non-citizens right? I would make sure they go about the proper steps to acquire said item as they may have to jump through hoops.

This argument:

Quote

"Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"

https://www.fbi.gov/...sing-firearms-1

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 07 October 2015 - 11:37 PM